| meanwhile other rich countries like the singapore and murica and etc are not happy so thoughts? |
degMar 29, 11:21 AM
| What makes you think that Nordic countries aren't rich? I think they are. |
Reply to DesuMaiden
What makes you think that Nordic countries aren't rich? I think they are.
| @DesuMaiden i mean other rich countries i will edit that part |
| they have different economic systems |
Reply to mentalmondai
they have different economic systems
| @mentalmondai then why the nordic model is not copied by other countries like rich countries? |
| You should read honestly more books at this point Deg. 🥲 |
 |
Reply to PeripheralVision
You should read honestly more books at this point Deg. 🥲
| @PeripheralVision why read books when i can read expert comments on mal? /s plus i got no money for books |
| It seems that national happiness strongly correlates with the level of democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#International_rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country Perhaps people from Nordic countries can give more accurate answers @Serafos @Skimt @Spunkert |
ZarutakuMar 30, 1:29 AM
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
| Well all the Nordic countries seem to all get on with eachother (source: Eurovision) seemingly. Also their populations aren't as high as other European countries, and Iceland in particular seems like a country where everyone knows eachother pretty intimately, considering how wild and spread out it is there ...but basically idk |
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Reply to deg
@mentalmondai then why the nordic model is not copied by other countries like rich countries?
| @deg because not every government has the same goals nordic countries are more open to government assistance, maternal leave, welfare and etc because this improves their peoples lives. whereas america spends a lot less on those things because its more money for the government to spend. just depends on what they think is more important |
Reply to Zarutaku
It seems that national happiness strongly correlates with the level of democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#International_rankings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country
Perhaps people from Nordic countries can give more accurate answers @Serafos @Skimt @Spunkert
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#International_rankings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country
Perhaps people from Nordic countries can give more accurate answers @Serafos @Skimt @Spunkert
Zarutaku said: Perhaps people from nordic countries can give more accurate answers @Serafos @Skimt @Spunkert Well since my name got mention i can give an answer to this. I guess most people here are happy because of the economy, welfare, the close communities, lower crime rates, healthy foods ect. But that really depend on the individual. I'm atleast happy with my life. |
 |
| Its a fake happiness, they're all only pretend. My suggestion to @deg is to travel around current Europe and the US, and see for yourself, and your impression of "Western happiness" will disappear in the seconds. |
| Are they? As far as I heard they are highly anti-social and the lack of sunlight during winter is extremely depressing. |
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| really i didnt know about this good systems ig |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Easily due to their less school / work time since from their childhood even until they have baby always get a lot leisure time officially from government so it really works to decrease stressful while doing activity either at their home or at their office |
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| Who said Nordic countries are actually happy? Because I think they are not. |
Reply to Pengawas
@deg There are indeed many experts here. /j
Looking at your track records on this matter. Didn't you already figured out the answer?
The researchers mixed up happy and content in these statistics.
Those N̶o̶r̶d̶i̶c̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶Scandinavians are more content than other rich countries. Many of them don't worry about getting a home, feeding their children, surviving the winter, or getting treated when they are ill. They have all the basic needs covered and therefore have little to worry about in general.
Looking at your track records on this matter. Didn't you already figured out the answer?
The researchers mixed up happy and content in these statistics.
Those N̶o̶r̶d̶i̶c̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶Scandinavians are more content than other rich countries. Many of them don't worry about getting a home, feeding their children, surviving the winter, or getting treated when they are ill. They have all the basic needs covered and therefore have little to worry about in general.
| @Pengawas i just want to read other mal users opinions on the matter |
| I'm told those countries had the least oppressive governments during the coronavirus pandemic. People elsewhere were not allowed to pursue happiness. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| the work of averages may be at play here also. Nordic countries seem to have a better minimum standard of living and this ensures there is a happiness floor across the population. A number of European countries, again appear to, have better standards for balance between work and recreation and of course it is easier to be happy when one, as a human, is not so functional. Though I think it is easy enough to abuse the definition of happiness; I have no doubt results such as those mentioned are based on a number of 'metrics' or 'indicators' on a specific sample of the population. Happiness maximisation is, in general, a little dubious though; it opens the door to all sorts of didactic vehicles, with soured intentions, which attempt to correct qualities of life which have an aesthetic virtue. I think sadness is a very alluring and reflective emotion which deserves embracing. |
| I am certain this topic has come up a few hundred times a few times before. *shakes bottle of happy pills* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_antidepressant_consumption Hmmm, interesting. Very interesting indeed! The top ranked countries are also the largest cooooonsumers of anti-depressants. |
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| Do people really think these survey's that determines the "happiness of a country" means much? That is quite possibly one of the worse ways to determine whether a countries has good economic laws or how "morally good" a country is since that's typically what people get out of these surveys. |
| When a pancake lover does something: "Outrageous vicious crime" When a waffle lover does something: "That means it is not illegal" Quotes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld_HIM667Do&t=2822s |
| >why are the nordic countries so happy? because they're white. |
Reply to removed-user
Something, something about equality, socialism, having health insurance, better educational systems, a shorter work week and no student debts...
| @LittleOwlbear Scandinavian countries are not socialists, bro, they have freer markets than most western countries do. Stop listening to Bernie Sanders propaganda. |
DreamWindowMar 30, 7:13 AM
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
Reply to DreamWindow
@LittleOwlbear
Scandinavian countries are not socialists, bro, they have freer markets than most western countries do. Stop listening to Bernie Sanders propaganda.
Scandinavian countries are not socialists, bro, they have freer markets than most western countries do. Stop listening to Bernie Sanders propaganda.
| @DreamWindow the nordic model is a mixed economy though both socialism (welfare) and capitalism (free market) |
| Universal basic income, free healthcare, affordable education and everyone's hot as fuck. |
Take care of yourself |
Reply to LoveLikeBlood
Universal basic income, free healthcare, affordable education and everyone's hot as fuck.
| @LoveLikeBlood lol well to me as a none east asian most whites are pretty anyway |
degMar 30, 7:47 AM
Reply to deg
@DreamWindow the nordic model is a mixed economy though both socialism (welfare) and capitalism (free market)
| @deg Socialism refers to a centrally planned economy. If the vast majority of sectors are private, it is a capitalist economy. Welfare statism does not make a country "socialist". |
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
Reply to DreamWindow
@deg
Socialism refers to a centrally planned economy. If the vast majority of sectors are private, it is a capitalist economy. Welfare statism does not make a country "socialist".
Socialism refers to a centrally planned economy. If the vast majority of sectors are private, it is a capitalist economy. Welfare statism does not make a country "socialist".
| @DreamWindow the welfare part is the socialism part besides im sure bernie sanders do not want a full socialism economy just championing the nordic model too |
| Not being forced to pay thousands of dollars when visiting a hospital is one thing I can assume we in the Scandinavia can be happy about. I can name a few as a Finnish person living in Sweden which makes me happy. 1. Good beer 2. Good sausage 3. Sauna 4. Kind of free health care <-- about 25 dollars for a checkup no matter what condition you're in. 5. Kind of free school <-- don't have kids so don't know if it costs or not. 6. Not too hot or too cold during summer/winter. There's more but I'm gonna go grab some beer and watch shit online instead of naming more. |
| Today, I may be a weak little bug that gets tossed in the wind, washed away by the currents, and drowns, but tomorrow, I may become the butterfly that spreads its colossal wings and flies the open skies! ~ Oe Kintaro |
Reply to deg
@DreamWindow the welfare part is the socialism part besides im sure bernie sanders do not want a full socialism economy just championing the nordic model too
| @deg No, Bernie would nationalize every industry if it were politically feasible to do so. The man spent his honeymoon in the USSR ffs. But sure, for the sake of argument, he mainly focused on nationalizing the US healthcare system. My point is, that does not make the country socialist by nationalizing one industry, unless it was the main industry providing the bulk of economic activity. That's why Venuzuala makes a stronger case for socialism than, say, Sweden does, because the latter has a bulk of economic activity that is mostly in the private sector, while the former's main industry is centrally planned. So Bernie is wrong when he claims countries like Denmark and Canada are socialist. |
DreamWindowMar 30, 8:02 AM
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
Reply to DreamWindow
@deg
No, Bernie would nationalize every industry if it were politically feasible to do so. The man spent his honeymoon in the USSR ffs. But sure, for the sake of argument, he mainly focused on nationalizing the US healthcare system. My point is, that does not make the country socialist by nationalizing one industry, unless it was the main industry providing the bulk of economic activity. That's why Venuzuala makes a stronger case for socialism than, say, Sweden does, because the latter has a bulk of economic activity that is mostly in the private sector, while the former's main industry is centrally planned. So Bernie is wrong when he claims countries like Denmark and Canada are socialist.
No, Bernie would nationalize every industry if it were politically feasible to do so. The man spent his honeymoon in the USSR ffs. But sure, for the sake of argument, he mainly focused on nationalizing the US healthcare system. My point is, that does not make the country socialist by nationalizing one industry, unless it was the main industry providing the bulk of economic activity. That's why Venuzuala makes a stronger case for socialism than, say, Sweden does, because the latter has a bulk of economic activity that is mostly in the private sector, while the former's main industry is centrally planned. So Bernie is wrong when he claims countries like Denmark and Canada are socialist.
| @DreamWindow well no one is saying a country is socialist with that its just that word by the laymen to say any welfare policies is socialism or even communism especially in murica |
| Probs something to do with more equality, better healthcare, superior education, they aren't slaves to their bosses, their high affinity for soci- hey wait a minute! Something, something about equality, socialism, having health insurance, better educational systems, a shorter work week and no student debts... - @LittleOwlBear sunofabitch, you stole my answer! |
 |
Reply to deg
@DreamWindow well no one is saying a country is socialist with that its just that word by the laymen to say any welfare policies is socialism or even communism especially in murica
| @deg well no one is saying a country is socialist That is what OP said, though. its just that word by the laymen to say any welfare policies is socialism or even communism especially in murica Then they don't know what they are talking about. |
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| What makes you think they are happy? I see no proof to validate their so-called happiness. I think they are depressed tbh. |
| They had a eugenics program until the late 70's. |
| Soldier F is Lance Corporal David James Cleary |
| i guess a system that isn't corrupt like a certain few countries. Although I don't understand how they can afford high tax rates (Scandinavian countries especially) |
| Deep northern sky and amazing fishing. |
| Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
| I don't live in Nordic countries btw... |
| They're probably the next Japan or smth |
 |
| Some people would point to the economic systems to suggest other countries should mimic them. Though this would ignore that Switzerland also scores high on the world happiness report while having low union membership and low government spending as a percentage of GDP for Europe, a privatized healthcare system, and low corporate taxes. Anyway, the happiness report does attempt to explain some of the variance in happiness, but a lot of it cannot be accounted for.  Seems like the big things to go for in aiming for a happy country are: (1) Have a big GDP per capita (2) Social support. The meaning of this is personal rather than governmental. Social support is the national average of the binary responses (0=no, 1=yes) to the Gallup World Poll (GWP) question “If you were in trouble, do you have relatives or friends you can count on to help you whenever you need them, or not?” https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2023/world-happiness-trust-and-social-connections-in-times-of-crisis/ (3) Have a high life expectancy But a huge chunk is just unexplained, at least as far as the report can tell. |
| @Freshell It's also worth checking this ranking for comparison. Instead of ranking happiness it ranks mental wellbeing. The UK is second to bottom on that list but near the top on the list you posted. You also need to bear in mind demographic differences between countries as well as cultural differences that may influence their view of what is happiness. https://mentalstateoftheworld.report/2023_read/ Anyway the rank you posted matches social mobility fairly well  https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf Also take note of the ITUC Global Rights Index for workers protections. You see it's largely labour related https://files.mutualcdn.com/ituc/files/2023_ituc_global_rights_index_en.pdf Also most of those top countries have Data protection laws preventing corporate and government snooping which could in part explain why Switzerland seems to defy a trend. Also bear in mind Switzerland is part of the EU which means people that live there have access to some resources from other near by countries with ease. You also could factor in climate as one factor. |
traedMay 1, 10:07 PM
| I think it's the air they breathe in, and the weather too. |
Reply to traed
@Freshell
It's also worth checking this ranking for comparison. Instead of ranking happiness it ranks mental wellbeing. The UK is second to bottom on that list but near the top on the list you posted. You also need to bear in mind demographic differences between countries as well as cultural differences that may influence their view of what is happiness.
https://mentalstateoftheworld.report/2023_read/
Anyway the rank you posted matches social mobility fairly well
https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf
Also take note of the ITUC Global Rights Index for workers protections. You see it's largely labour related
https://files.mutualcdn.com/ituc/files/2023_ituc_global_rights_index_en.pdf
Also most of those top countries have Data protection laws preventing corporate and government snooping which could in part explain why Switzerland seems to defy a trend. Also bear in mind Switzerland is part of the EU which means people that live there have access to some resources from other near by countries with ease. You also could factor in climate as one factor.
It's also worth checking this ranking for comparison. Instead of ranking happiness it ranks mental wellbeing. The UK is second to bottom on that list but near the top on the list you posted. You also need to bear in mind demographic differences between countries as well as cultural differences that may influence their view of what is happiness.
https://mentalstateoftheworld.report/2023_read/
Anyway the rank you posted matches social mobility fairly well
https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf
Also take note of the ITUC Global Rights Index for workers protections. You see it's largely labour related
https://files.mutualcdn.com/ituc/files/2023_ituc_global_rights_index_en.pdf
Also most of those top countries have Data protection laws preventing corporate and government snooping which could in part explain why Switzerland seems to defy a trend. Also bear in mind Switzerland is part of the EU which means people that live there have access to some resources from other near by countries with ease. You also could factor in climate as one factor.
traed said: It's also worth checking this ranking for comparison. Instead of ranking happiness it ranks mental wellbeing. I bring up the World Happiness Report since it's the source for the claim that Nordic countries are happy. And I'm pretty fine assuming the metric probably means something while other metrics complicate the story. Your social mobility graph is interesting. Although it isn't a perfect one to one. A big gap is that Japan is ranked 15th on this index while ranking in the 50s on the Happiness Report. I'd be interested in how this all works out in terms of regressions and how much of the variance it can explain compared to say GDP per capita. My guess is that a high GDP per capita is a prerequisite for ranking high, but that at a certain threshold, other differences like this one may start mattering more. traed said: The UK is second to bottom on that list but near the top on the list you posted. You also need to bear in mind demographic differences between countries as well as cultural differences that may influence their view of what is happiness. Your link gives us the result that the US is doing pretty well on mental health compared to other rich nations, doing better than France, Canada and Germany. Aging and stagnant Italy is apparently an exemplar. Poor nations seem to be able to do fairly well on this metric?  Anyway, this winds up complicating the story even more on what economic system is the one to shoot for. traed said: lso most of those top countries have Data protection laws preventing corporate and government snooping which could in part explain why Switzerland seems to defy a trend. I'd suggest a confounder here. The EU and European countries generally have strong data protection laws (which is likely stagnating their tech sectors), and European nations tend to be on the wealthier side of things. I don't give much credence to the idea that data protection laws explain it, since most people use the internet without thinking about that. |
FreshellMay 1, 10:16 PM
Freshell said: Your graph is interesting. Although it isn't a perfect one to one. A big gap is that Japan is ranked 15th on this index while ranking in the 50s on the Happiness Report. I'd be interested in how this all works out in terms of regressions and how much of the variance it can explain compared to say GDP per capita. My guess is that a high GDP per capita is a prerequisite for ranking high, but that at a certain threshold, other differences like this one may start mattering more. Yes i just brought it only for sake of UK since even if it's clearly a flawed system they use fact UK is at such an extreme difference I think it's worth reconsidering for some countries like that. The UK also has a lot of economic inequality in it larger social class divides in other words. https://data.oecd.org/inequality/income-inequality.htm For the record i inserted other things into my post while you were writing this apparently. So may want to glance back again. Actually i could just requote it traed said: Also take note of the ITUC Global Rights Index for workers protections. You see it's largely labour related https://files.mutualcdn.com/ituc/files/2023_ituc_global_rights_index_en.pdf Notice how even though Switzerland ranks high in the so called Economic Freedom Index it has plenty of regulations on worker's rights to protect them from that and all the other top countries have that. Freshell said: Poor nations seem to be able to do fairly well on this metric? I think it has to do with being optimistic or hopeful and good at dealing with shit. I dont think it really suggests anything deeper than that like quality of life. Freshell said: I'd suggest a confounder here. The EU and European countries generally have strong data protection laws (which is likely stagnating their tech sectors), and European nations tend to be on the wealthier side of things. I don't give much credence to the idea that data protection laws explain it, since most people use the internet without thinking about that. Yeah kinda but some countries not in the EU with protections also wound up in there. Im not saying it's just that but using that as a signifier of the general politics on government hinderance in personal lives that when people dont feel oppressed or under watch by their government they are happier. Though of course just one factor. |
traedMay 1, 10:54 PM
traed said: Also take note of the ITUC Global Rights Index for workers protections. You see it's largely labour related This is another thing I would expect to have a confounder. Wealthier nations will tend to be more willing to sacrifice income for safer worker conditions (maintaining safer working conditions increases business costs,) and this becomes instantiated in law wealthier nations more often for that reason. If we want to look at the higher ends of things, you have the outlier of Japan again. It's being similarly ranked as Singapore on labor rights. Singapore also has a marginally higher average work week than Japan. Singapore is performing much better than Japan on the Happiness Report. A more systematic examination comparing the amount of variance explained by different variables will probably get us farther than just pointing out apparent patterns. traed said: Yes i just brought it only for sake of UK since even if it's clearly a flawed system they use fact UK is at such an extreme difference I think it's worth reconsidering for some countries like that. The UK also has a lot of economic inequality in it larger social class divides in other words. Sure, I welcome the idea that the story could be more complicated than the World Happiness Report lets on. That said, in reference to the Nordic countries, it is used to argue that we ought to imitate the Nordic countries, so really I take this kind of information to just strengthen that point. For instance, I'd like to point out for example that the US has higher inequality than the UK, Germany, Canada, and France, yet it performed better on the provided mental health quotient than all of them. If we're going to bring up this metric as meaningful, we should look at other things it indicates. traed said: I think it has to do with being optimistic or hopeful. I dont think it really suggests anything deeper than that. I'm not sure that people in poor nations have reason to be more hopeful or are more hopeful than people in rich nations. traed said: Yeah kinda but some countries not in the EU also wound up in there. Im not saying it's just that but using that as a signifier of the general politics on government involvement in personal lives. It's plausible that it signifies something about regional politics that's important. Although again one big confounder is probably just wealth. The UK isn't in the EU but used to be. Switzerland isn't in the EU, but perhaps proximity to EU countries has an indirect influence on politics. |
Freshell said: This is another thing I would expect to have a confounder. Wealthier nations will tend to be more willing to sacrifice income for safer worker conditions (maintaining safer working conditions increases business costs,) and this becomes instantiated in law wealthier nations more often for that reason. If we want to look at the higher ends of things, you have the outlier of Japan again. It's being similarly ranked as Singapore on labor rights. Singapore also has a marginally higher average work week than Japan. Singapore is performing much better than Japan on the Happiness Report. A more systematic examination comparing the amount of variance explained by different variables will probably get us farther than just pointing out apparent patterns. But the US is in group 4 "systematic violations of rights" despite being wealthy. I think it isnt just safety it's about like wage theft and stuff. Japan ranks poorly on job satisfaction. https://www.statista.com/chart/5068/where-people-feel-good-at-work/ Freshell said: Sure, I welcome the idea that the story could be more complicated than the World Happiness Report lets on. That said, in reference to the Nordic countries, it is used to argue that we ought to imitate the Nordic countries, so really I take this kind of information to just strengthen that point. For instance, I'd like to point out for example that the US has higher inequality than the UK, Germany, Canada, and France, yet it performed better on the provided mental health quotient. If we're going to bring up this metric as meaningful, we should look at other things it indicates. The US is a central hub for professionals around the world. Just only the richest get to them in many cases if you want to make something from it. So basically it might be a fluke in the statistics that a small group does very well while most do poorly. Freshell said: I'm not sure that people in poor nations have reason to be more hopeful or are more hopeful than people in rich nations. These countries tend to 1. Be more religious as a coping mechanism 2. Have a continually rising economy for example how the Dominican Republic wound up on the top has got to be that. 3. Have a collectivist culture (as you can see on both Happiness and Mental Wellbeing the cultures lean toward collectivist or at least not individualist like the US) Freshell said: It's plausible that it signifies something about regional politics that's important. Although again one big confounder is probably just wealth. The UK isn't in the EU but used to be. Switzerland isn't in the EU, but perhaps proximity to EU countries has an indirect influence on politics. Iceland is not in the EU and it has some of the best protections of data in the world. New Zealand has some protections too although not on level of GDPR. Oh and for the record if your goal were what to apply. Well a country not ranking well doesnt necessarily mean a flaw in the country, because they are not isolated. Outside foreign relations influence what happens in the country. For example Cuba doesnt get to import many things because the US has it out for them but they have practically no homelessness. But not saying to ignore the well doing countries just not to ignore the lesser ones if they have poor relations that mess up their economy and access to resources and goods. |
traedMay 1, 11:13 PM
| Just a generalized point I want to bring up. The World Happiness Report attempts to find what variables best explain the data using quantitative methods. Here we're scattershot trying to find relationships that might explain the data based on apparent and loose pattern matching (while focusing on the top of the income distribution for some reason.) Will these considerations yield some insight? Maybe. I treat everything I'm responding to as based on speculation. traed said: But the US is in group 4 "systematic violations of rights" despite being wealthy. I think it isnt just safety it's about like wage theft and stuff. Just a generalized point. It would apply to all labor regulations that would raise business costs and cause workers to sacrifice some income. Doesn't apply to everything of course. But if we ran a regression on this ranking by an international trade union organization, I'm sure we'd find some correlation. Income would be a strong confounder, with the causal map being that high income causes happier people, and high income also causes more labor regulations. traed said: Japan ranks poorly on job satisfaction. https://www.statista.com/chart/5068/where-people-feel-good-at-work/ This link doesn't include Singapore, who I compared Japan to. Again, Singapore has a longer work week on average. Also, Japan also performed really high on the labor protections ranking you posted while the US still has higher job satisfaction despite ranking really low. For fun, I could list all the countries that rank higher than the US on that labor protection list and perform worse on the Happiness Report. But it would almost feel like spam. Some highlights are France, Spain, Singapore, Japan and Taiwan to go with fairly well of nations. traed said: These countries tend to 1. Be more religious as a coping mechanism 2. Have a continually rising economy for example how the Dominican Republic wound up on the top has got to be that. 3. Have a collectivist culture (as you can see on both Happiness and Mental Wellbeing the cultures lean toward collectivist or at least not individualist like the US) These could be the mechanisms. Or perhaps people who have more leisure time tend to develop mental health issues like depression. You also seem to be under some impression that the US is particularly individualist among rich countries, but the US also wound up performing well relative to other rich countries on the mental health index. In fairness to your explanations though, the US is also more religious than other nations, and it experiences higher than average economic growth rates compared to other rich nations. traed said: The US is a central hub for professionals around the world. Just only the richest get to them in many cases if you want to make something from it. So basically it might be a fluke in the statistics that a small group does very well while most do poorly. When it's about the UK, inequality is causing mental health problems that shows up in the statistics you posted, but when it's the US having high inequality while also performing well on the metric, inequality is skewing the results to make it look good. Inequality seems to be capable of explaining both bad outcomes and good outcomes for mental health. I'm not sure how you're reconciling this. It seems post hoc. |
FreshellMay 1, 11:50 PM
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