Toradora! Episode 17 Discussion

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atruong18 said:
@swiftstylez: sounds pretty convincing with your arguments. anything can happen between the 4 practically, while ami is assumed to be left behind.

i like this new opening, i prefer these kind of music than the 1st one. i like how everything is themed bright and white to symbolize wintertime. also gives the feeling that something serious is going to happen compared to the 1st season.

the ending..not so great. i prefer vanilla salt more.

Yeah, the themes do foreshadow a lot of development to come.

noteDhero said:
Swiftstylez...you're overlooking one thing: Minorin's treatment of Ryuuji. What is the explanation there. Even Taiga noticed a difference. You haven't spoken on that yet.

I think you're seeing what you want to, and that you're not taking into account all that has happened, nor what normally happens in these types of shows. I know how delusional I am in thinking that Ami will get Ryuuji, or that Taiga might snag Kitamura, but this episode pretty much has set up a RyuujixTaiga conclusion (even if it doesn't get expressed so that another season can be done).

I also believe that there is a Ryuuji x Taiga conclusion. I also strongly believe that there is a Kitamura x Minorin conclusion. Explain my scenes then? Why should I have to explain just yours lol. There has been a long time in between drinks between the Ryuuji and Minorin scenes, however, I think that Minorin may have wondered if she liked Ryuuji at that point.. she never definitely liked anyone though. She was unable to see ghosts at that point, unable to see love, unable to see UFO's. Therefore Kitamura and Ryuuji are on an even playing field. It is also interesting to note how well Minorin and Kitamura got along with each other during the course of Ryuuji trying to hit on Minorin, so... maybe you are not looking at everything? Explain my version of the guilt scene then, which seems the most logical? Imo it is moving towards what I said previously, and I stand by my beliefs.

DeathfireD said:

Swiftstylez said:

I've mentioned that it looks like Minorin and Kitamura have a connection in the past and even added it to the relationship chart I make every few eps as well (removed it in the latest one though). The current problem we face now is that she's reacting to Ryuuji and not Kitamura anymore. We have to assume that she likes Ryuuji now. She's most likely in the same position Ryuuji is with Tiagia and Minorin. When it comes down to it Ryuuji is probably going to end up with Tiagia and Minorin with Kitamura.

Actually I did notice that LOL It drew the contempt of the anti Kitamorin fanclub, but I believe it is just as probable if not more probably than Minorin liking Ryuuji.

If Toradora is truly going with the friends gradually realizing how much they mean to each other, which is what is happening with Taiga and Ryuuji, I don't see why Minorin won't realize the same by the end as well.

You also have to understand that I am not dispelling Minorin liking Ryuuji entirely, I just seem it less likely than Kitamura.

AnistylezFeb 1, 2009 5:34 PM

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Feb 1, 2009 5:43 PM

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noteDhero said:
Swiftstylez...you're overlooking one thing: Minorin's treatment of Ryuuji. What is the explanation there. Even Taiga noticed a difference. You haven't spoken on that yet.

I think you're seeing what you want to, and that you're not taking into account all that has happened, nor what normally happens in these types of shows. I know how delusional I am in thinking that Ami will get Ryuuji, or that Taiga might snag Kitamura, but this episode pretty much has set up a RyuujixTaiga conclusion (even if it doesn't get expressed so that another season can be done).

I 100% agree with this assessment. A lot of people are just conjecturing on what they WANT to see when there is nothing of the sort.

For example. Minorin has NEVER displayed any feelings towards Kitamura. If one goes back to episode 2 or 3 you'll see that even Kihara-kun displayed outward feelings towards Kitamura. Kitamura and the President in various episodes showed the same and even Ami at the beach house led on to something between them. However there has NEVER EVER been anything, other than friendship, I have seen expressed between Kitamura and Minorin.

Plus, I find it unlikely that Kitmura who was going butt crazy (seemingly suicidal) over the President leaving the country would suddenly fall in love with Minorin. Ditto for Minorin who has spent time finding ways to reject Ryuuji and having her character develop around Ryuuji/Ami/ or Taiga suddenly shift to Kitamura.

Again, if one says that Minorin and Kitamura can happen then I find that Ami and Kitamura have an even bigger chance since MINORIN even said the one person who UNDERSTANDS Kitamura is Ami [and this is keeping in mind that I DO NOT think that Ami and Kitamura will be a pair]. If that's a fact then Minorin is so not on the list.

Lastly it doesn't matter if Minorin DOES develop feelings for Kitamura for one fundamental reason.

Taiga forced the President to say her feelings publicly and in front of Kitamura. What does that mean? That means that Kitamura's feelings were returned 100 fold. That means that it's highly likely that Kitamura and the President will be a pair. So for all the women who may have feelings for Kitamura, it's basically useless because his feelings were returned by the woman he loves and there is nothing to say they won't be together.

I don't see how that issue is so easily ignored.

Feb 1, 2009 6:11 PM

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Swifty (can I call you that?), I think what you are saying about the obvious portion of your assessment is somewhat right with regards to how things are playing out. However, what I would say is that, in assessing Minorin, the obvious is that she thinks of Ryuuji as a friend, but slowly becomes honest with her feelings after the ghost conversation with him. I think it's a good thing to remember how taken aback that she was after she had that little monologue, almost as though it were a side of herself that she doesn't let people see.

If Toradora is about friends recongnizing romantic feelings slowly, then I think that supports Minorin having feelings for Ryuuji more.

As I said in the other episode discussion (my posts tend to get overlooked what with the fierce shipping debate and great relationship charts), Ami, who by the way is the only person who clearly sees everyone's feelings, is trying to goad out Minorin into at least accepting her feelings for Ryuuji so that it can be on even ground. Ami has already declared to Ryuuji that she will fight, and be an equal, and thus, the only way that she feels she can do that is get Minorin to come out with it, and stop being in denial. That's also why she was being a little catty in volunteering to help Ryuuji with the Christmas party, and rubbing it in Minorin's face. Maruo had nothing to do with it.

If Kitamura and Ryuuji are on an equal playing field after the conversation, then I think that throws out most of the good support for KitamuraXMinorin: The baseball stuff, and the summer scaring. You're right, they really have not had much screen time together, even conversing, so I don't really see how the writing or direction is leading it that way even as a red herring.

In that guilt scene with the ID that you are talking about, I took that as Minorin being lost in thought, and Ami's voice snapping her out of it. It looked to me like she wasn't even in the same world as Ami and the Plastics until Ami called out to her.

But I agree with you, typing seriously about Toradora is a little ridiculous.
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Feb 1, 2009 6:13 PM

#156

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Swiftstylez said:

noteDhero said:
Swiftstylez...you're overlooking one thing: Minorin's treatment of Ryuuji. What is the explanation there. Even Taiga noticed a difference. You haven't spoken on that yet.

I think you're seeing what you want to, and that you're not taking into account all that has happened, nor what normally happens in these types of shows. I know how delusional I am in thinking that Ami will get Ryuuji, or that Taiga might snag Kitamura, but this episode pretty much has set up a RyuujixTaiga conclusion (even if it doesn't get expressed so that another season can be done).

I also believe that there is a Ryuuji x Taiga conclusion. I also strongly believe that there is a Kitamura x Minorin conclusion. Explain my scenes then? Why should I have to explain just yours lol. There has been a long time in between drinks between the Ryuuji and Minorin scenes, however, I think that Minorin may have wondered if she liked Ryuuji at that point.. she never definitely liked anyone though. She was unable to see ghosts at that point, unable to see love, unable to see UFO's. Therefore Kitamura and Ryuuji are on an even playing field. It is also interesting to note how well Minorin and Kitamura got along with each other during the course of Ryuuji trying to hit on Minorin, so... maybe you are not looking at everything? Explain my version of the guilt scene then, which seems the most logical? Imo it is moving towards what I said previously, and I stand by my beliefs.

I can totally explain away your scenes. First off I rewatched the scene you mentioned of Minorin looking sad. It's very clear and apparent that when she first over hears the girls it's surprise. Why? Her eyes are wide and her mouth dropped open. Second the next part was more pensive because probably thinking that she thought something was going on between Taiga and Ryuuji but she found out that wasn't the case. ie This is keeping in mind she knows nothing about the second picture which Ami hid at the most opportune time and the fact that the girls clearly harped on that Taiga had feelings for Kitamura. So this "feeling of sadness" on her face is unlikely, or most definitely not what I saw. You can easily see and compare her expression in episode 16 to her face in the episode with Taiga as an angel for the student performance where you can see Minorin is clearly distraught over the Taiga issue. It is not the same expression of to describe sadness.

The second issue is when you replace Ryuuji with Kitamura. You have completely disregarded all the information that was built around the Minorin/Ryuuji relationship. The show was built on unrequited emotions, excluding Kitamura who got his returned. Ryuuji has never shown any moment of losing his interest in Minorin and Minorin has shown even through her many bouts of rejection moving closer to him. I dislike the pairing of Minorin and Ryuuji but I will not deny that Minorin seems to be turning around. If you have don't think that Ami has a chance with Kitamura then explain why Ami was angry after telling Minorin that she should get rid of her "guilt". You completely disregarded that as worthless in your assessment to further your point. To follow your logic Ami would therefore must feel something for Kitamura...unless it's just pure disgust.

As for your last picture...I'm sorry but I totally LOLed at that point. Did you really pay attention to the OP? Really? This is in no way insulting, I just have a simple question.

In the OP it shows Minorin standing across from another girl on her team and what I will say is to boys across from her. One of them had blue hair in a ponytail and that was the one that was the one standing next to her and most likely the one that handed her the ball. Kitamura doesn't have blue hair. Secondly the next one is at an angle across from her and has green hair and doesn't appear to be waring glasses. Kitamura may be on the team with her but your statement speaks as though he's the ONLY boy who plays softball/baseball. And the OP clearly shows he's not in the scene.

So that last "bit of evidence" ( I'm sorry to say...since I can't say someone is wrong since a lot of things can be speculated) the OP doesn't show that it's Kitamura and based on the people around Minorin in that scene it is NOT Kitamura. At that piont, as you've suggested to posters to check out the scenes....you should check it out yourself.

Not to mention as I mentioned earlier you can't forget or omitt the fact that Kitamura was the only one so far to have his feelings returned. I don't see Kitamura switching from one girl to the next. It took him a while to get over Taiga and move to the President...so I don't see him giving up so easily when she's still fairly accessible, to go to Minorin.

Finally. You may say that you don't want to take Toradora! too seriously and that's your choice...however I agree with another poster on another site the story (ie, manga, anime, novel) are pathos-invoking. That being said....it shows a lot more in the level of friendships and how friendships go beyond the norm.

vaberellaFeb 1, 2009 6:21 PM

Feb 1, 2009 6:52 PM

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Somnia said:
Taiga had a shocking level of moe quality in this episode. It's good to see her with a cute bright smile rather than her usual 'piss off' face and attitude. I really wonder why characters in this show get so depressed they have to change their appearance. Kitamura dyes his hair, Minori wears a baldy wig. What a bunch of weirdos.

Agreed. I felt the same way. A lot of the times when she annoyed me was because I felt she got angry for no reason but to get angry. I liked this silly lighthearted aspect of her character as well. As for Kitamura-Minorin....oy..."bunch of weirdos" is a perfect and concise summary. At times I just think they have issues that needs psychiatric help and hope that their scenes end quickly. Keeping in mind Kitamura was alright in the beginning for me and I liked his issue with the Pres until the hair dye...you'd think he'd be a bit stronger. Minorin is just a looney-toon.

Ami has some real soul and I really like Ryuuji's way of thinking. Taiga is good since when juxtaposed to Ryuuji she works well.

vindemon64 said:

Kvakond said:

So, I'm totally lost. Minori's gone from crazy to total nutjob, Taiga is one happy camper, Ryuuji is starting to like Taiga, some new girl likes Kitamura too, and Ami knows everything. Feels like watching a new show.

I feel that the characters have gone "out of character" a bit too suddenly. I do understand that it's been a few weeks since things have happened in the storyline, but I guess I'm not adjusting to the sudden character-personality changes. But I will admit things are starting to get really interesting and for once, pairings are really hard to predict. Seems like we're in the Kushieda arc now where we get to deal with her messed up problem.

I couldn't agree more, although I think the character change might be more of a sort of abrupt storyline shift. Now we're dealing heavily on Ami/Minorin feelings and their feelings are a bit more detailed. You have Minorin move from rejection to reciprocation. Ami trying to push her feelings and competing unsuccessfully with two other women who hold a set place in the feeling of the man she wants.

I got that feeling the OP/ED change was a bit of foreshadowing onto the level of the show. At this point we're in total angst mode...well really since ep 14/15.

Rebella said:

vaberella said:

sniW said:

Tekky99 said:
me like new OP =3

Yeah, I just uploaded a higher quality version (with more bass):

and someone else uploaded the ED:

I actually like this new OP better than the previous one.

Okay well I don't like the ED at all. It's far from upbeat and fun, this is goes double for the ending vid.

As for the OP. I really dislike the OP song. I loved Pre-Parade and this one just does nothing for me. As for the vid..hmmm....It has it's good points and bad points. It would be fine if there were more images of Ryuuji/Taiga. Instead I felt that Minorin and Ami dominated the video (ditto for the ED) and Kitamura was almost invisible.

I find both videos seem to change the feel of the show for me a bit. When I think of the first OP and ED I knew I would expect some fun and lighthearted stuff broken in by teen melodrama. But now, both songs just kind of make me think ANGST and nothing else. The feel is off.

Totally agree. I was like where's my pre parade? O_o??

Edit: FINALLY! Ryuuji is starting to realize how he feels for Taiga. Both Taiga and Ryuuji looked so cute in this episode. I like Ami but I could never like Minorin. Sorry guys she's soooooo weird.

Agreed...100% You know what, my sister actually wondered why I couldn't relate to Minorin. Everywhere I go I was the "weirdo" or the "unique" one...whatever. But I just can't get into her. It's not so much as weird but more so she's useless to me. I just feel she doesn't bring anything to a scene where I can say..."She's cool." plus her nonsensical behaviour is counterproductive.

Grim_angel_pj said:
I have a feeling that this arc will end with this next episode or the one after, and then the last 6-7 episodes will be the final arc.

that scene when Ryuuji and his mom were pleading for forgiveness was one of my favorite parts of this ep.

I still hope he goes with Ami in the end, because I feel like something big is gonna happen in the next episode that makes it completely unlikely the Kushieda X Ryuuji ending. But then again that glimpse of Ami "crying" in the preview might mean that the Ami x Ryuuji ending is gone as well (which would suck because she is my 2nd favorite character, Ryuuji being first)

Hi-Five. I really like Ami. And if I was sure there was a chance for her and Ryuuji, I would but utterly supportive of them getting together and hoping they populate the world with gorgeous model-worthy intense-looking blue-haired babies. Seriously Ami is a prize on that show. Her and Sumire were definitely faves.

However, I do think Sumire hooks up with Kitamura considering they have reciprocal feelings and she'll probably come back and visit her man. However, in the way the show is moving...I just don't see Ryuuji with Ami. I would love it, but don't see it.

I was like if she doesn't hook up with Ryuuji and unlikely to get Kitamura because of Sumire, then I'm totally fine with her and Haruta-chan. <---He's cool. ^_^

noteDhero said:
I dislike her because she is nonsensical and detracts from the good parts of the show.

I 100% agree, but I've said the same before.

Feb 1, 2009 7:11 PM

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vaberella said:

I 100% disagree.

Feb 1, 2009 7:24 PM

#159

hyro010

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Guys just for note when Minorin is listening in on the conversation of the girls in the end of ep 16. The girls look in the picture book and one of them says "she really does love him" there is no translation error when the sub-group did this. In japanese they never say kitamura in the sentence. So I believe that Minorin misunderstands this and thinks that Taiga really likes Ryuji.

I also believe when Ami says that she has cleared her guilt. Ami is saying that Minorin should of been the person to speak up and say that she would return the pictures to Taiga because she is her best friend but Minorin atm is thinking of Taiga as a rival or being hostile to her because Minorin likes Ryuji.

Minorin is having conflicting views on whether or not she should stay Taiga's friend or start approaching Ryuji

Feb 1, 2009 8:04 PM

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hyro010 said:
Guys just for note when Minorin is listening in on the conversation of the girls in the end of ep 16. The girls look in the picture book and one of them says "she really does love him" there is no translation error when the sub-group did this. In japanese they never say kitamura in the sentence. So I believe that Minorin misunderstands this and thinks that Taiga really likes Ryuji.

I also believe when Ami says that she has cleared her guilt. Ami is saying that Minorin should of been the person to speak up and say that she would return the pictures to Taiga because she is her best friend but Minorin atm is thinking of Taiga as a rival or being hostile to her because Minorin likes Ryuji.

Minorin is having conflicting views on whether or not she should stay Taiga's friend or start approaching Ryuji

Great catch Hyro. I do like your interpretation of the guilt scene. Now that is definitely different and I have to say I was going on a rather narrowed viewpoint as it seems the rest. That's definitely an eye-opener statement. Where have you been in all the posts...maybe I just missed it.

I don't know if I agree with your statement on Minorin and her conflicting feelings. I don't see a man breaking up her feelings and relationship with Taiga. Before there ever was a Ryuuji there was a Taiga/Minorin. So that's something established and I don't see her letting her feelings or questionable state affect anything with what could be Taiga and Ryuuji. What I mean to say is that she probably will observe the relationship more before making a move and whatever move Taiga makes then she'll decide.

But the definitely your entire post is most welcome and refreshing. I definitely like it since its, personally for me, the first post to really make me look at the scene again. Great interpretation and I'm leaning on to your side for a lot of the thoughts.

Feb 1, 2009 8:17 PM

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I think what he's trying to say is that if Minorin ever did decide to jump into the fight for Ryuuji, she would justify herself by trying to sever her relationship with Taiga, or thinking that Taiga would never want to be friends with her again for "betraying" her.

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Feb 1, 2009 8:42 PM

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noteDhero said:
I think what he's trying to say is that if Minorin ever did decide to jump into the fight for Ryuuji, she would justify herself by trying to sever her relationship with Taiga, or thinking that Taiga would never want to be friends with her again for "betraying" her.

Ahhh...that makes more sense, thanks for the clarification noteDhero. If that's the case then I can see that happening. What is up with all these sacrificial lambs? I think that makes me like Ami a bit more (more than I already love the character). A bit more human, if you get my meaning. Yeah, she's friends with them, but she won't mind risking a few people's feelings (questionable) feelings in order to get her guy. Not that she's a dirty player but that she's realistic and knows that all these silent denials won't get you what you want. ~sigh~ Maybe that's it...Maybe Ami realizes she is definitely leveling the playing field way too much by giving Minorin the "in" or she might be ruining the Minorin/Taiga relationship to get Ryuuji.

In any event, the clarification definitely more sense and then I'd have to totally agree with hyro010.

Feb 1, 2009 8:45 PM

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All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

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Feb 1, 2009 9:02 PM

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noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Agreed my main man. Agreed. However, I think it is affecting her considering that she's developing strong friendships with everyone. Or maybe not. In the beginning of the anime series I really felt we were getting her bonding with the other 4 characters. Then in the last few eps, after the beach house I actually felt Ami was moving AWAY from the other four. As though she's there, but sort of uninvolved more like an observant bystander. Like Haruta-chan if he was aware. It's a bit annoying. So I totally related when everyone was complaining about the lack of Ami in a lot of these eps, in this one she's nearly non-existent. No doubt about that. I hope in the next eps she gets more and more play since I feel she brings a lot to the floor when she does.

Defiance said:

vaberella said:

I 100% disagree.

Feb 1, 2009 9:07 PM

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Vaberella: The guy has a sleeve on and the school uniform. There is no one in that scene prior to the ball being placed in her hand that has a sleeve on in the opening. Therefore it is safe to assume that he is not being depicted in the scene prior to the ball being placed in her hand, to keep it mysterious. Imo I think you are wrong about Minorin's reaction, but interpret it however you will. I am not going to deny your enthusiasm when it comes to Toradora though.

NoteDHero: Yes you can call me Swifty lol. Yes it's true, I also don't like typing too seriously with Toradora :P I agree that Minorin hasn't had much screen time with Kitamura lately, but neither has Ryuuji really. Also did you notice in the last episode or two, when Kitamura was depressed, Minorin was really keen on going to Kitamura's house and then backed out?

I just don't think it can be entirely disproved, and I for one like the Kitamorin pairing.

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Feb 1, 2009 9:09 PM

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Double posting for irony: I'm pretty sure Defiance was just kidding around, don't get so worked up.

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Feb 1, 2009 9:15 PM

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hyro010

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noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Yeah I am pretty tired of animes now and days where the guys are totally oblivious to everything that happens around them and are really undecisive. I feel like anime is degrading guys. I'm not sure if any of you guys watched School Days but it takes what I said to the next level.

Feb 1, 2009 9:17 PM

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Swiftstylez said:
Vaberella: The guy has a sleeve on and the school uniform. There is no one in that scene prior to the ball being placed in her hand that has a sleeve on in the opening. Therefore it is safe to assume that he is not being depicted in the scene prior to the ball being placed in her hand, to keep it mysterious. Imo I think you are wrong about Minorin's reaction, but interpret it however you will. I am not going to deny your enthusiasm when it comes to Toradora though.

NoteDHero: Yes you can call me Swifty lol. Yes it's true, I also don't like typing too seriously with Toradora :P I agree that Minorin hasn't had much screen time with Kitamura lately, but neither has Ryuuji really. Also did you notice in the last episode or two, when Kitamura was depressed, Minorin was really keen on going to Kitamura's house and then backed out?

I just don't think it can be entirely disproved, and I for one like the Kitamorin pairing.

What opening scene? Now I have to ask in which episode. Are you speaking about the OP vid of 17? Where she's talking to 4 people in the baseball yard? Because that's the OP I thought you were mentioning. If that's the case, how do you know that's Kitamura...it could be anyone and it looked like the baseball/softball uniform sleeve NOT the school uniform sleeve, I checked for that as well. This is where I think looking into the show is a bit ridiculous when we're overanalyzing uniforms and such...but at this point I did check since I figured you'd mention that and no it's not the same sleeve and it matches the baseball uniform. That is not Kitamura and there's nothing to even denote that it is. Unless we're not talking about the new OP or even the same episode. <----Since that could be the case.

That's fine about Minorin's reaction.

Swiftstylez said:
Double posting for irony: I'm pretty sure Defiance was just kidding around, don't get so worked up.

Unlikely considering said individual has admitted to baiting me in the past. In any case that's neither here nor there, as I've said, since wasting time on pettiness and stupidity bugs the hell out of me. So it's a moot point.

hyro010 said:

noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Yeah I am pretty tired of animes now and days where the guys are totally oblivious to everything that happens around them and are really undecisive. I feel like anime is degrading guys. I'm not sure if any of you guys watched School Days but it takes what I said to the next level.

I haven't seen it, but I plan on watching it. I have noticed that about the male characters especially

vaberellaFeb 1, 2009 9:22 PM

Feb 1, 2009 9:18 PM

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hyro010 said:

noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Yeah I am pretty tired of animes now and days where the guys are totally oblivious to everything that happens around them and are really undecisive. I feel like anime is degrading guys. I'm not sure if any of you guys watched School Days but it takes what I said to the next level.

That's because the majority of guys that watch anime are like this lol jk

Vaberella: Since Kitamura has a higher chance of being involved with baseball I place the highly likelihood that it is him over Ryuuji. That and Ryuuji likes Taiga at the moment, so he isn't going to be the one to help her "see ghosts" or "pick up her ball" whether she likes Ryuuji or not. She has probably taken heed of Ami's advice by now along the lines of "them being like the sun and the moon, and burning each other out" or whatever it was. Where as Kitamorin are perfect. You saw their chemistry in the beach arc, none glaringly stronger than the sea weed and prank scenes.

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Feb 1, 2009 9:21 PM

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hyro010

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Swiftstylez said:
That's because the majority of guys that watch anime are like this lol jk

yeah as I think about it you're probably right.

Feb 1, 2009 9:27 PM

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Females are the same way when they're the main character...Fruits Basket, Vampire Knight, Saiunkoku anyone?

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Feb 1, 2009 9:30 PM

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Swiftstylez said:

hyro010 said:

noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Yeah I am pretty tired of animes now and days where the guys are totally oblivious to everything that happens around them and are really undecisive. I feel like anime is degrading guys. I'm not sure if any of you guys watched School Days but it takes what I said to the next level.

That's because the majority of guys that watch anime are like this lol jk

Vaberella: Since Kitamura has a higher chance of being involved with baseball I place the highly likelihood that it is him over Ryuuji. That and Ryuuji likes Taiga at the moment, so he isn't going to be the one to help her "see ghosts" or "pick up her ball" whether she likes Ryuuji or not. She has probably taken heed of Ami's advice by now along the lines of "them being like the sun and the moon, and burning each other out" or whatever it was. Where as Kitamorin are perfect.

I don't understand you're point? I never argued that Kitamura was not in the baseball/softball team. I said however that in the OP, if we're talking about the OP there were two males and a female talking to Minorin. Secondly, there are more males involved in the baseball/softball team than just Kitamura. And third, I found it more likely it was one of them than Kitamura because I would think Kitamura taking over as President would be more time consuming than when he was just Vice President. I figured that scene of Kitamura looking outside was just probably looking at the students playing baseball/softball which Minorin was grouped in. But it was not Kitamura passing on the baseball to her. <---Again I'm going by what I've seen in the vid.

I don't think Ryuuji likes Taiga at the moment. I think Ryuuji maybe having some feelings towards Taiga but as to what they are, he's unsure or not really bothering to analyze. But as for liking, that's not in the books...yet. As for the rest of your statement. I don't understand. The thought never crossed my mind that Ryuuji was one of the people to hand her the baseball since he doesn't play nor was he in the field or one of the two guys standing next to Minorin in the field who I thought passed on the ball...so I don't understand bringing him up. And as for the rest of your statement about Ami and Minorin, I don't understand it at all so besides this comment I can't say anything else.

Feb 1, 2009 9:32 PM

#173

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noteDhero said:
Females are the same way when they're the main character...Fruits Basket, Vampire Knight, Saiunkoku anyone?

mmmmmm Males are more the same when it comes to Romantic Comedies in anime. Females tend to deviate a bit more though...There are plenty of strong ones too: Hana Yori Dango, Kare Kano, Basically every Tsundre anime lol

I guess the less clueless guys are the perverted ones in Romance/Comedies, occasionally lol.

http://www.youtube.com/swiftstylez - My AMV's. I would really appreciate any comments and ratings :]

Feb 1, 2009 9:35 PM

#174

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vaberella said:

Swiftstylez said:

hyro010 said:

noteDhero said:
All's fair in love and war...Ami deserves someone more self-aware than Ryuuji.

Yeah I am pretty tired of animes now and days where the guys are totally oblivious to everything that happens around them and are really undecisive. I feel like anime is degrading guys. I'm not sure if any of you guys watched School Days but it takes what I said to the next level.

That's because the majority of guys that watch anime are like this lol jk

Vaberella: Since Kitamura has a higher chance of being involved with baseball I place the highly likelihood that it is him over Ryuuji. That and Ryuuji likes Taiga at the moment, so he isn't going to be the one to help her "see ghosts" or "pick up her ball" whether she likes Ryuuji or not. She has probably taken heed of Ami's advice by now along the lines of "them being like the sun and the moon, and burning each other out" or whatever it was. Where as Kitamorin are perfect.

I don't understand you're point? I never argued that Kitamura was not in the baseball/softball team. I said however that in the OP, if we're talking about the OP there were two males and a female talking to Minorin. Secondly, there are more males involved in the baseball/softball team than just Kitamura. And third, I found it more likely it was one of them than Kitamura because I would think Kitamura taking over as President would be more time consuming than when he was just Vice President. I figured that scene of Kitamura looking outside was just probably looking at the students playing baseball/softball which Minorin was grouped in. But it was not Kitamura passing on the baseball to her. <---Again I'm going by what I've seen in the vid.

I don't think Ryuuji likes Taiga at the moment. I think Ryuuji maybe having some feelings towards Taiga but as to what they are, he's unsure or not really bothering to analyze. But as for liking, that's not in the books...yet. As for the rest of your statement. I don't understand. The thought never crossed my mind that Ryuuji was one of the people to hand her the baseball since he doesn't play nor was he in the field or one of the two guys standing next to Minorin in the field who I thought passed on the ball...so I don't understand bringing him up. And as for the rest of your statement about Ami and Minorin, I don't understand it at all so besides this comment I can't say anything else.

Not explaining it again when it made sense the first time, even. Ryuuji does like Taiga but is unable to put his finger on it at the moment, and it is obvious that is coming to this anyway otherwise why would he have reacted so harshly.. It's Minorin's whole ghost concept and the opening sequence of the first episodes concept that you have failed to understand since I've begun posting here. It also supports Kitamura x Minorin as friends progressing their feelings to a culmination, but I'm not going there again.

AnistylezFeb 1, 2009 9:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/swiftstylez - My AMV's. I would really appreciate any comments and ratings :]

Feb 1, 2009 9:37 PM

#175

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noteDhero said:
Females are the same way when they're the main character...Fruits Basket, Vampire Knight, Saiunkoku anyone?

Not oblivious though...just a bit more dumb.

Plus I think this is the fault of the compression techniques of the anime writers/producers. When one reads the mangas or better yet the stories that have novels the perspective is completely different.

So the failure of the anime I find when it comes to really good characterization is the battle of too many characters at times and the issues of compression. Had this show followed the same breath

than anything else but possibly at the sacrifice of a lot of the characters.

Swiftstylez said:

Not explaining it again when it made sense the first time, even. Ryuuji does like Taiga but is unable to put his finger on it at the moment, and it is obvious that is coming to this anyway otherwise why would he have reacted so harshly.. It's Minorin's whole ghost concept and the opening sequence of the first episodes concept that you have failed to understand since I've begun posting here.

This is becoming exhausting. I don't understand your final statements and I didn't know why you brought in Ryuuji considering I never saw him as even a likely candidate. I don't understand a few of your statements but I also didn't ask you to clarify it since you've said something similar time and again which I felt I responded too. As for Ryuuji liking Taiga....so far I know he likes her as a friend and that's so far as we can go. I can say I suspect they are set in stone. But as of yet, we have seen no proof but a bit of hesitance in this episode to say where he stands yet. I respect your right to believe that it's definite. Fine. However, right now I do know he DOES like Minorin and I find him unsure about where he stands with Taiga. <---This is my stance, I'm not telling you to believe otherwise. You had said he liked Taiga as though it was fact, and I put my point and clarified what I felt his position was.

As for the ghost concept. Not to come across rude, but so far you're the only one using it profusely and you act like you're the only one who is correct in their interpretation of the statement and don't believe it can be interpreted in any other way. It is the same with the belief that it is Kitamura who is passing on the ball. That's fine for you. However, my interpretation of the "ghost" sequence you keep using is very different. As my interpretation of other scenes have been proven to be different. That is what I find you can't understand.

And a point I have been trying to relay to you since I've posting here is that most of Minorin's enlightening statements, as you seem to think they are, are speculated upon. Not one person here had an idea that believed to mean something 100% when it came out of Minorin's mouth, this is speaking to her moments of "insightful" ie the "ghost"concept. You can sell your view as the right one all you want, I just don't agree.

vaberellaFeb 1, 2009 9:50 PM

Feb 1, 2009 10:17 PM

#176

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Jul 2008

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vaberella said:

Maybe you should check the forum guidelines and read where it says double posting is not allowed lol. Btw, occasionally people will split a post in 2 separate posts so it won't seem so long. You wouldn't be the first, but you were just dumb enough to do it in consecutive posts.

You also amuse me with the constant accusations of baiting. You just make yourself look like a fool in a discussion and blame me for baiting.

Of course you are not the only one that needs to stop double posting, Swiftstylez seems to be doing it as well. Use the edit button, it's not hard.

Feb 2, 2009 2:36 PM

#177

FTGT

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Feb 2008

712

You are now entering the "in good fun" zone....watch your step.... ^^

While I was reading vaberellas threehundretsomething try to convince Swifty (I like that name ^^) of the fact that there is no chance for a Minorin X Kitamura pairing, I woke up and thought to myself:
Something has to be done!

So here it is:

*CELEBRATORY DRUM ROLL*

And the award in the category "most effort in posting during the first 9 pages of the thread Toradora Episode 17 discussion " goes to...... *opening envelope*:

~~ VABERELLA ~~

*clap clap clap clap*

Her constant will of making herself clear and avoiding misunderstandings, leaded to vast and challenging posts (both in quantity and quality). And although a lot of people simply went to the land of Nod while reading (or desperately trying to "overscroll") her enormous contemplative effusions, no one else deserves this award more!

vaberella said:

You know what, my sister actually wondered why I couldn't relate to Minorin. Everywhere I go I was the "weirdo" or the "unique" one...whatever.

Really? Never would have guessed that... *big innocent grin* :]

*vaberella prepares to write an answer*
Wait....what are you doing?....that was a joke....No need to respond... ARRRGGHH!

Have a nice night.... ^^

FTGTFeb 3, 2009 11:39 AM

Feb 2, 2009 4:15 PM

#178

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FTGT said:
His constant will of making himself clear and avoiding misunderstandings

I lol'd.

Feb 3, 2009 2:04 AM

#179

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FTGT said:

His constant will of making himself clear and avoiding misunderstandings

I lolled because Vaberella is a girl lol

Swifty seems to be an automatic nickname people give me

http://www.youtube.com/swiftstylez - My AMV's. I would really appreciate any comments and ratings :]

Feb 3, 2009 2:16 AM

#180

soulelle

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Mar 2008

518

noteDhero said:
I think what he's trying to say is that if Minorin ever did decide to jump into the fight for Ryuuji, she would justify herself by trying to sever her relationship with Taiga, or thinking that Taiga would never want to be friends with her again for "betraying" her.

yep, that thought was definitely flying somewhere around me and I couldn't catch it! now I can, thank you so much!!! I feel way more relaxed now ^^ however.. the growing excitementcaused by awatening of the upcoming 18th episode gonna pump my anxiety level high enough very soon, lol ^^

FTGT said:
His constant will of making himself clear and avoiding misunderstandings

just to let you know she's a girl, so you better go and beg her pardon

Feb 3, 2009 7:00 AM

#181

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Still strongly disagree with that interpretation, NoteDhero. Each to their own, but imo I don't think Ryuuji was relevant in that scene. But if they were going with Minorin liking Ryuuji, that's what it would be. There is too much mystery about Minorin that to be honest if they wanted to say that Minorin likes Taiga as more than a friend they could turn around and do so lol.

AnistylezFeb 3, 2009 7:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/swiftstylez - My AMV's. I would really appreciate any comments and ratings :]

Feb 3, 2009 9:19 AM

#182

soulelle

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Swiftstylez said:
There is too much mystery about Minorin that to be honest if they wanted to say that Minorin likes Taiga as more than a friend they could turn around and do so lol.

let's see if it happens tomorrow LOL

Feb 3, 2009 9:44 AM

#183

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Swiftstylez said:

FTGT said:

His constant will of making himself clear and avoiding misunderstandings

I lolled because Vaberella is a girl lol

You know, angel999 posed as a 16 year old girl so don't be so sure.

Feb 3, 2009 10:50 AM

#184

kei-clone

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enough flaming specific members plz. back on topic

Feb 3, 2009 11:34 AM

#185

FTGT

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Feb 2008

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soulelle said:

FTGT said:
His constant will of making himself clear and avoiding misunderstandings

just to let you know she's a girl, so you better go and beg her pardon

0.0 .... how could I miss that? Inapprehensible.... Im really becoming old. ;)

@Vaberella:
*laying down like Kitamura*
Im really sorry about that. It was not on purpose.
Wow, this changes my view about you in some way! What a girl... ^^

kei-clone said:
enough flaming specific members plz. back on topic

If you refer to my post, it was never meant as an insult or "flaming" in any way. I just wanted to "cheer up" the athmosphere in this thread since it gave me a very serious and uncomfortable feeling somehow.
I have a lot of respect for Vaberella and envy her for her indulgence (hopefully thats the right word in english).

I wanted to bring some of the "friendship" thats shown in Toradora to this thread. And from my point of view, bringing some of the "romance" over wouldnt be bad either.

Im hoping for an "Swifty X Vaberella" ending! xD

Feb 3, 2009 12:29 PM

#186

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soulelle said:

noteDhero said:
I think what he's trying to say is that if Minorin ever did decide to jump into the fight for Ryuuji, she would justify herself by trying to sever her relationship with Taiga, or thinking that Taiga would never want to be friends with her again for "betraying" her.

yep, that thought was definitely flying somewhere around me and I couldn't catch it! now I can, thank you so much!!! I feel way more relaxed now ^^ however.. the growing excitementcaused by awatening of the upcoming 18th episode gonna pump my anxiety level high enough very soon, lol ^^

Huh...Soulelle what do you know that we don't?!

Swiftstylez said:
Still strongly disagree with that interpretation, NoteDhero. Each to their own, but imo I don't think Ryuuji was relevant in that scene. But if they were going with Minorin liking Ryuuji, that's what it would be. There is too much mystery about Minorin that to be honest if they wanted to say that Minorin likes Taiga as more than a friend they could turn around and do so lol.

This is one of the reasons I can't see Minorin and Kitamura. There is really no development there. I think for all the pairings that have erupted there has been major development done on them. I could see Kitamura/Sumire being the more dodgy one, however it was implied in the beach house ep, and then from there it expanded. If they even wanted to pair up Minorin with Ami----which I mentioned in a post either in this thread or another---I found it to be realistic due to the direction of their interaction on screen. But it's also the mystery (I define as under-development rather than mystery.) behind Minorin, which I had said before, makes her a rather under developed character. However, with the subsequent episodes and those yet to come she is definitely getting more depth.

Note: No need to respond to my statement above. It's a rhetorical statement which sums up some of my problems with Minorin as a whole which was opened through your post.

vaberellaFeb 3, 2009 12:35 PM

Feb 3, 2009 8:04 PM

#187

Axxendal

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21

Remember, it really only takes 2 episodes for a game-breaking event. One for the unexpected development-cliffhanger, one for the characters' reactions. We still have plenty of chances for some 180-spin that changes all the characters' relationships.

Feb 3, 2009 9:37 PM

#188

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Axxendal said:
Remember, it really only takes 2 episodes for a game-breaking event. One for the unexpected development-cliffhanger, one for the characters' reactions. We still have plenty of chances for some 180-spin that changes all the characters' relationships.

Agreed, for your average anime. But this is an anime, even for people who don't delve like to delve into the seriousness of an anime can't deny, likes to give more than just 2 episodes to any of the relationships. This show when it does an arc seems on average to give it 4-5 episodes not 2.

Feb 3, 2009 10:37 PM

#189

JadeMatrix

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Aug 2008

714

Holy shit do you guys write long posts. And calm down before there's a flame war. (We all know it's RyuujixMinorin anyways /troll).

New OP and ED are not nearly as good as the old ones. Although I do like some of the new animation in the OP.

soulelle said:
Poor.. poor Minorin... Poor.. poor Ami! Just take a look at the next episode preview, Ami's crying.. and it's a pity there's no pair for her nor for Minorin.. Kitamura will most likely end up with Kihara.. Ryuuji will end up with Taiga... and I can even imagine an episode where Minorin releases him for his own and Taiga's sake..

I can too... I've already stated that I dread the "you helped me find love" speech from Minori (see Kimikiss: Pure Rouge, which I'm coming to regret having watched).

kameko14 said:
WHAAAAAAT!? How can you not like Minori? She's so funny! And duh she's weird...so what? I didn't think it was even possible for someone not to like Minorin..

QFTQFTQFT

脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Feb 3, 2009 11:23 PM

#190

Jarmel

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285

Looks like things are going to get serious from now on. I think at this point Ryuji is going to have to go on a date with Minorin before Taiga shows any interest whatsoever in him, it appears that Taiga and Kitamura's relationship is possibly developing. It would be nice to see some development on the other front, also it's kinda sad how easily Ami just got destroyed in the possible relationship with Ryuji.

"I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." By Emiliano Zapata

Feb 4, 2009 6:54 AM

#191

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soulelle said:

Swiftstylez said:
There is too much mystery about Minorin that to be honest if they wanted to say that Minorin likes Taiga as more than a friend they could turn around and do so lol.

let's see if it happens tomorrow LOL

I wonder how everyone would react to that... not well is my guess LOL. I'm sure some of the guys on MAL would froth though.

FTGT said:

I wanted to bring some of the "friendship" thats shown in Toradora to this thread. And from my point of view, bringing some of the "romance" over wouldnt be bad either.

Im hoping for an "Swifty X Vaberella" ending! xD

LOL, What do you say Vaberella ;) Let's put aside our differences and go with the least predictable outcome hah jk

As for your post Vaberella, I think that they still have the episodes to do a little bit of developing and even swerve the final outcomes a bit :P I can see why you think what you do, but I still have my original feeling that it will end up with Kitamorin.

Axxendal said:
Remember, it really only takes 2 episodes for a game-breaking event. One for the unexpected development-cliffhanger, one for the characters' reactions. We still have plenty of chances for some 180-spin that changes all the characters' relationships.

QFT. Refer to above.

vaberella said:

Agreed, for your average anime. But this is an anime, even for people who don't delve like to delve into the seriousness of an anime can't deny, likes to give more than just 2 episodes to any of the relationships. This show when it does an arc seems on average to give it 4-5 episodes not 2.

It wouldn't be an arc though really, more so than an event. We are probably coming to the end of the Minorin arc anyways.

Jarmel said:
Looks like things are going to get serious from now on. I think at this point Ryuji is going to have to go on a date with Minorin before Taiga shows any interest whatsoever in him, it appears that Taiga and Kitamura's relationship is possibly developing. It would be nice to see some development on the other front, also it's kinda sad how easily Ami just got destroyed in the possible relationship with Ryuji.

Another reason why I think Minorin should be guilty because she wants Kitamura. There is nothing to be guilty about in regards to liking Ryuuji, because at this stage she TAIGA DOES NOT LIKE RYUUJI, even though I think she will eventually will. Taiga has been trying to set up Minorin and Ryuuji the whole time, so why would Minorin be guilty if she liked Ryuuji? However currently Taiga likes Kitamura... So that swings me more and more in favor of Kitamura x Minorin.

http://www.youtube.com/swiftstylez - My AMV's. I would really appreciate any comments and ratings :]

Feb 4, 2009 12:02 PM

#192

JadeMatrix

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JadeMatrix said:
(We all know it's RyuujixMinorin anyways /troll).

Dammit, how could I have forgotten. I meant RyuujixInko-chan.

/totally ignores conversation

脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Feb 4, 2009 3:31 PM

#193

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Swiftstylez said:

LOL, What do you say Vaberella ;) Let's put aside our differences and go with the least predictable outcome hah jk

As for your post Vaberella, I think that they still have the episodes to do a little bit of developing and even swerve the final outcomes a bit :P I can see why you think what you do, but I still have my original feeling that it will end up with Kitamorin.

Unlikely to your first statement. ^_^

As for the second statement, I agree. They most definitely have developing to do because of the lack of development for Minorin. As for the outcome...not really a point in going on with that since it would be circular.

Swiftstylez said:

vaberella said:

Agreed, for your average anime. But this is an anime, even for people who don't delve like to delve into the seriousness of an anime can't deny, likes to give more than just 2 episodes to any of the relationships. This show when it does an arc seems on average to give it 4-5 episodes not 2.

It wouldn't be an arc though really, more so than an event. We are probably coming to the end of the Minorin arc anyways.

Actually I would argue that point. It would be the start of the Minorin arc. Minorin is obviously still struggling with her feelings for Ryuuji and we have Ami dealing with two other women who obviously have feelings for the same man she does. They gave us a taste, as I find most of the writers have been doing throughout the show before an arc starts. Take for example the Sumire/Kitamura situation which really started in episode 9 or 10 when Ami called Kitamura on the fact he wasn't at a school body meeting. Then we started going bit by bit through school events of Kitamura and Sumire's obvious and admitted affections for one another. So I see this as the beginning as the touch on the Minorin arc that is on it's way.

Swiftstylez said:

Jarmel said:
Looks like things are going to get serious from now on. I think at this point Ryuji is going to have to go on a date with Minorin before Taiga shows any interest whatsoever in him, it appears that Taiga and Kitamura's relationship is possibly developing. It would be nice to see some development on the other front, also it's kinda sad how easily Ami just got destroyed in the possible relationship with Ryuji.

Another reason why I think Minorin should be guilty because she wants Kitamura. There is nothing to be guilty about in regards to liking Ryuuji, because at this stage she TAIGA DOES NOT LIKE RYUUJI, even though I think she will eventually will. Taiga has been trying to set up Minorin and Ryuuji the whole time, so why would Minorin be guilty if she liked Ryuuji? However currently Taiga likes Kitamura... So that swings me more and more in favor of Kitamura x Minorin.

I'm surprised by your capped exclamation as though, Taiga not liking Ryuuji is some fact. In regards to Taiga not liking Ryuuji...I'd have to say that you're incorrect; very much so. It was established in Episode 8 as the most solidifying episode. Episode 4 most definitely since you can see that Taiga spends time watching Ryuuji's pic and then hides it as though she was looking at Kitamura. There's episode 9 with the dream and her later revelation to Ryuuji in that same episode of what the dream might mean and then she sort of washes it over it. <---One of the most telling episodes. Then there was episode 12 with her dad and what she put herself through, and sacrificed in order to please Ryuuji and not see him angry. We also have episode 14 in which Taiga clearly hides the pic she was looking at. And I mentioned that in episode 14 it was a poster by the name of DeathfireD in post 64 at this link: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=61359&show=60 who picked up on that, which I didn't notice at first.

So there's actually a lot displayed in the show that Taiga most definitely likes or has some weird deep feelings for Ryuuji. As for the other way round, there actually is less displayed. So Ryuuji feelings for Taiga may develop into something more (as can be expected). But at the moment there is undeniable proof to support Taiga and Ryuuji. If everything else was oblivious you have to remember that Minorin had her moment of insight when Ryuuji was prepping Taiga for the swimming competition and look at her face after Ryuuji got hurt and Taiga made her explanation. How would you expect Minorin to interpret Taiga's feelings? I would interpret Taiga's feelings as leaning towards Ryuuji, not to mention the fact she spends nights at his house, Minorin was aware it was Ryuuji who made the breast pads, and it was Ryuuji making her bento boxes. So even if Taiga made a proclamaition that she had no feelings for Ryuuji in that way in episode 2 or 3, that was can be seen as a probably lie due to everything else that is easily seen throughout the episodes.

Unfortunately if this is used in defense or seen as swinging to Kitamura/Minorin....It's seen as even more unlikely taking into account the past information.

Feb 5, 2009 2:25 AM

#194

traed

Online

Mar 2008

47141

I think what he meant by the guns n roses was a dangerous love game maybe like an expression? IDK just a though.... oh or maybe the fact Guns N Roses made a new album after years and years of nothingness so could be a metaphor for something unexpected? idk just another guess =P but who cares, it jsut sounded odd

Feb 5, 2009 5:50 AM

#195