Sword Art Online (light novel)
yhunata said: lol of course I know of it but when looking at real oppai lolis you can see Hestia isn't a loli Deknijff said: Have you not heard of the concept called "Oppai Loli"?Id like to just mention some of the Japanese consider Hestia a loli with huge tits just because she slightly short  its apparent even the Japanese makes mistakes   |
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| @Daniel_naumov come one dude, the virtual world is literally another world per japanese translation and official meaning. Even kawahara referred to sao as an isekai. |
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| Even if it technically doesn't count as one, it has the same appeal. So it might be more convenient in some situations to categorize SAO as isekai. Shouldn't be a problem either, as long as we can agree on the fact that one shouldn't take the label at face value. Personally I also consider anime such as Bakuman and Food Wars as battle shounen. I'm more for the pragmatic approach for the sake of discussion. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
| Just remembered this connundrum, if sao is not isekai then ghost in the shell is not mecha because it doesnt have them transforming robots. The arguments against sao not being an isekai are correct but cherry picked. Btw sinon best girl |
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| Imagine not being able to recognise an isekai when you stare at one. |
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Daniel_Naumov said: Nah I wouldn't say so Catalano said: It is hard to argue against the official word of the author himself@Daniel_naumov come one dude, the virtual world is literally another world per japanese translation and official meaning. Even kawahara referred to sao as an isekai. Authors are just like any other human so they can be wrong. Kawahara is just a writer not a expert on the discussion Just like how no matter how many times Omori Fujino has characters call Hestia a oppai loli doesn't change the fact she isn't a loli |
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| Imagine arguing online about things. |
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Daniel_Naumov said: GamerDLM said: What about Overlord, Log Horizon or Death March? In all those cases the characters are trapped in a world that they heavily associate with a game they've been apart of. You could debate that the differences they experienced make them a distinctly different world, but they could essentially still be a digital world explaining things like in game menus. As far as I am concerned, neither Overlord nor Log Horizon are completed, as of yet. It is impossible, then, to argue that there is not going to be an explanation which reveals them to be either a full-fledged fantasy, or an actual science-fiction, or something entirely else. With Sword Art Online it is different, however. We already know for a fact that their world is just a normal world, devoid of magic. All the adventures we follow are a result of reasonably advanced technology, which is hardly even science-fiction, but still is one. There is nothing that puts the series on the same scale as Overlord, Log Horizon and what other crap is oh right Tate no Yuusha Nariagari and Re:zero kara meaningless title. For now. Their genres might be updated by the time the story is finished. Except just using those 2 examples as a base the methodology that they were trapped much more closely resembles that of SAO. Log Horizon the players logged in to a game they were previously playing after its 12th expansion and found themselves trapped as their characters. Overlord saw a guy log into his account on the last day they were shutting down the servers only to find that he had been trapped as his character and the NPCs surrounding him had taken on the personalities written by him and his guildmates. SAO saw characters log into a game that people had previously beta tested and then be notified that they were unable to escape unless they were able to conquer the virtual world. The only key difference is that SAO provided an escape route immediately and nobody had played far enough into the game to have a grasp of the world. The fact that you bring up magic also immediately skews the conversation because no part of the concept of isekai requires magic. If the story followed travelers going into space to finding themselves trapped on an alien planet as the primary premise that would be just as much as an isekai as the fantasy counterparts. I would argue even calling isekai a genre is misleading but that's more of a western thing where it turned into a subgenre, it's just a premise. |
GamerDLMMay 1, 2020 6:10 AM
EratiK said: Imagine making fun of arguing because you can't argue despite posting in a forum in which people are in a argumentative discussion Imagine arguing online about things. |
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Daniel_Naumov said: Errr, it was the Japanese using it themselves that way. They probably are pretty happy to see some fringe group of nerds explains how to use their language properly now.inim said: The fun fact here is that "isekai" was used for sci-fi worlds and "other dimensions" long before it was used in a narrower sense to describe an anime sub-genre of fantasy. Whoever used it was factually wrong before the mass started obsessing with being wrong on the basis of Japanese terminology misinterpretation. See: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%95%B0%E7%95%8C The fallacy you commit is retro-fitting a definiton. The word isekai pre-dates the anime genre it was used to describe by far. Now you take one of the meanings of what is just a regular Japanese word and declare pre-existing semantics void. That makes no sense. The normative power and what a bunch of nerds "agree" on is absolutely irrelevant in the light of a language with 120 million speakers. |
inimMay 1, 2020 6:09 AM
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| Even if we agree that sao is not isekai, there are there isekai anime like el hazard, genmu senki leda and 12 kingdoms that people still don't accept them to be called isekai. I mean, characters are transfered to another world literally. Tagging media is almost like math, if it has that certain element we give it its normal tag, but apparently we can't calculate correctly. |
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GamerDLM said: Nah another key aspect is that the game worlds of Log Horizon and Overlord has real created different worlds that highly resemble the games of which the players had played before being sent to the game like new world The only key difference is that SAO provided an escape route immediately and nobody had played far enough into the game to have a grasp of the world. SAO doesn't have that. None of the games from SAO are turned into real actual worlds of which the characters now live in but simply a simulation When even looking at Ainz he says its no longer the game because he can do things the game wouldn't allow and he can actually experience things of which the game didn't include oh and the NPCs aren't NPCs anymore but real living creatures and people |
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| I also don't consider Sword Art Online an Isekai, although I understand why many people call it that. I think the main reasons are that people pay too much attention to the first arc and even less to others. In my interpretation, Sword Art Online was never a work about Sword Art Online, but about the impacts of a disastrous insertion of VR in different spheres of a society (in the order of the arcs: psycho-electronic; psychological and police; medical; military and human; etc), the game being just a background. I wrote about it in another post, so I give myself the right to not have to justify everything again, since it would be very long. In this sense, many people tend to generalize SAO, as if he were just Aincrad. Another possible reason why people think so is the way SAO is the target of a big Hate. Yes, it may seem strange at first, but the fact that SAO is hated contributes, since people spread several VERY simplified opinions about the work. Most people don't refer to SAO, out there, as "the anime that establishes a universe of phenomenology about VR implementation", but rather as "anime where people get stuck in a game". This form of dissemination sounds a lot like the synopses of the current season Isekais, which, I must admit, many of them have an occasional MMORPG setting and RPG-based fantasy worlds, so it's not surprising that people associate one thing with another. But, well, from my point of view, I don't consider an Isekai. First, because there are only arcs aimed at characters enclosed in a world (Aincrad and Alicization), and not the work as a whole. Second, because, in both cases, there is an exchange of people (Kayaba Akihiko, for example, was able to log out, as Alicization proves, and Alicization has a whole possible Logout system at Rath). Yes, they are worlds of MMORPG and fantasy and in both the protagonist gets stuck, but it is something completely ephemeral and temporary. With "worlds" I mean the VR simulations created by NerveGear, AmuSphere and STL, so keep in mind that the concept of "world" is also not literal in the case of SAO, but an amount of information that is processed in the brain of people. It is different, for example, from Re: Zero and other Isekais, in which it is, in fact, a different world to which the protagonist is transported. And third and most importantly, Reki Kawahara has already given an interview, in which he said about Sword Art Online not being an Isekai. So, those are the reasons why I disagree with this view. |
MaranderMay 1, 2020 6:33 AM
Deknijff said: lol of course I know of it but when looking at real oppai lolis you can see Hestia isn't a loli Come on, man. Did you really have to make me remember Eiken? |
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Deknijff said: GamerDLM said: Nah another key aspect is that the game worlds of Log Horizon and Overlord has real created different worlds that highly resemble the games of which the players had played before being sent to the game like new world The only key difference is that SAO provided an escape route immediately and nobody had played far enough into the game to have a grasp of the world. SAO doesn't have that. None of the games from SAO are turned into real actual worlds of which the characters now live in but simply a simulation When even looking at Ainz he says its no longer the game because he can do things the game wouldn't allow and he can actually experience things of which the game didn't include oh and the NPCs aren't NPCs anymore but real living creatures and people But that's more of a focus on the direction they went with world building. In Log Horizon specifically the primary change they noticed is that despite having access to things like in game menus they no longer functioned the same or had less than ideal results. But the world itself is quite consistent with how they described it in the game. In Overlord's case that is still kind of the big mystery. It notes how things like many connections to the game with history and culture but the changes he reference are often tied to game such as friendly fire being enabled. Daniel_Naumov said: I didn't call science fiction "another world" I called being trapped on another planet "another world". If you're conflating that to imply that I stated all sci-fi is isekai that is just a lie. That would be like me saying because you brought up magic that must mean you're defining all series with magic as "another world". You just called science fiction an "another world". You are misguided and are using the terminology wrongly. Try reading up on the wikipedia what Science Fiction is. See the narratives that define it the most. Compare to the "another world" settings. You will eventually see the mistakes you are making in the logical processes. If anything all I stated is that sci-fi can also be an isekai if the premise is in fact a series in which a character is trapped in another world which you seem to be arbitrarily opposed to with no basis on logic. |
GamerDLMMay 1, 2020 6:50 AM
Daniel_Naumov said: That's some nice idiosyncratic thinking you have there. And no, I don't equate isekai and the far more general term science fiction. Isekai just describes a subgenre of that really broad class of stories. in Particular, those involving other worlds, such as alien planets and alternate dimensions populated with strange forms of life. E.g. cyberpunk doesn't qualify, as it just takes place in a fictionalized version of the "real world". That is actually at the core of the word "isekai" - it's a fundamentally different reality, not just a mildly modified version of the real world.what you are trying to pass as an "another world" is a full-fledged science-fiction. |
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SignsOfSuicide said: Well Isekai means like "another world" and the game as the setting fits that role. I'm not too big a fan of using Isekai as a genre myself but a lot of people do it cause it is convenient. Pretty much this. 1.) it isn't really a genre, at least I don't think so 2.) A video game definitely classifies as another world to me, If I was sucked into the world of WOW or FF or something, definitely another world. |
| Lolicons are scum. BABYMETAL is more metal than Metallica. Naruto is objectively the best anime ever. HxH 99' is decent. HxH 11' is bad. |
| Not everyone. Only peoples that don't know better. |
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GamerDLM said: Im not well versed enough on Log Horizon's LN so if those spoilers are true I couldn't argue Log Horizon is Isekai then honestly but I don't want to argue a position of if it is or isn't if there is facts I'm unaware of because Id be arguing from a state of ignorance Deknijff said: But that's more of a focus on the direction they went with world building. In Log Horizon specifically the primary change they noticed is that despite having access to things like in game menus they no longer functioned the same or had less than ideal results. But the world itself is quite consistent with how they described it in the game. Nah another key aspect is that the game worlds of Log Horizon and Overlord has real created different worlds that highly resemble the games of which the players had played before being sent to the game like new world SAO doesn't have that. None of the games from SAO are turned into real actual worlds of which the characters now live in but simply a simulation When even looking at Ainz he says its no longer the game because he can do things the game wouldn't allow and he can actually experience things of which the game didn't include oh and the NPCs aren't NPCs anymore but real living creatures and people GamerDLM said: Im pretty sure all of those things are related to how the players of the Game are all transported to different time periods with things from the game relevant to the player is also transported with them and become real in the new real world In Overlord's case that is still kind of the big mystery. It notes how things like many connections to the game with history and culture but the changes he reference are often tied to game such as friendly fire being enabled. Its why Ainz finds things that aren't related to the game like how the Tomb of Nazarick wasn't in its original in game location based off his knowledge of the geography of the game so he asks Mare to change the environment to hide Nazarick better |
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| Sao is not an isekai, MCs are still in our world, they are just using some VR microwave SHIT. My classmate Slonica has a vr headset too, and he is not isekaing himself every friday to some shitty worlds, he is just playing some games... |
Deknijff said: GamerDLM said: Im not well versed enough on Log Horizon's LN so if those spoilers are true I couldn't argue Log Horizon is Isekai then honestly but I don't want to argue a position of if it is or isn't if there is facts I'm unaware of because Id be arguing from a state of ignorance But that's more of a focus on the direction they went with world building. In Log Horizon specifically the primary change they noticed is that despite having access to things like in game menus they no longer functioned the same or had less than ideal results. But the world itself is quite consistent with how they described it in the game. GamerDLM said: Im pretty sure all of those things are related to how the players of the Game are all transported to different time periods with things from the game relevant to the player is also transported with them and become real in the new real world In Overlord's case that is still kind of the big mystery. It notes how things like many connections to the game with history and culture but the changes he reference are often tied to game such as friendly fire being enabled. Its why Ainz finds things that aren't related to the game like how the Tomb of Nazarick wasn't in its original in game location based off his knowledge of the geography of the game so he asks Mare to change the environment to hide Nazarick better But I would argue even with kind of the vague response you're still kind of splitting hairs over what you consider to be "trapped in another world". Like since Overlord seems to be more common ground for information let me pose a hypothetical. What if Ainz discovers the connection point to the game ergo implying that it is just another hidden subsection of the area he is familiar with? Would it stop being an isekai to discover it's just a variation or section of the game world? Like what if those changes he noticed were a result of the server being shut down but physically he is just in the game? Because in Log Horizon's case that seemed to be what you implied happened in your reasoning which leads me to believe it's a useless arbitrary label that can easily vanish depending on how a world is built. |
GamerDLMMay 1, 2020 7:04 AM
GamerDLM said: If the question is like this?Deknijff said: Im not well versed enough on Log Horizon's LN so if those spoilers are true I couldn't argue Log Horizon is Isekai then honestly but I don't want to argue a position of if it is or isn't if there is facts I'm unaware of because Id be arguing from a state of ignorance Im pretty sure all of those things are related to how the players of the Game are all transported to different time periods with things from the game relevant to the player is also transported with them and become real in the new real world Its why Ainz finds things that aren't related to the game like how the Tomb of Nazarick wasn't in its original in game location based off his knowledge of the geography of the game so he asks Mare to change the environment to hide Nazarick better But I would argue even with kind of the vague response you're still kind of splitting hairs over what you consider to be "trapped in another world". Like since Overlord seems to be more common ground for information let me pose a hypothetical. What if Ainz discovers the connection point to the game ergo implying that it is just another hidden subsection of the area he is familiar with? Would it stop being an isekai to discover it's just a variation of the game world? Because in Log Horizon's case that seemed to be what you implied happened in your reasoning which leads me to believe it's a useless arbitrary label that can easily vanish depending on how a world is built. Am I willing to stop calling Overlord an isekai if I'm presented with inuniverse proof to show its not actually an isekai? Yes of course Id stop because I don't want to be incorrect and wrong. Its just like how I stopped thinking Parallel Paradise  was an isekai because it turned out that the MC was transported into the future of his own world where almost nothing is like how it used to be |
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| @Deknijff Okay so that cycles back to my issue with arguing the label in this context. Putting aside your personal opinion that a game world is not distinct enough to seemingly be considered a different world, that example provided implies that you really shouldn't be using the label on ongoing series or series that you haven't finished at all. I would argue if a series is presented as an isekai and then several years later adds new world building information it shouldn't dismiss the initial premise/sub-genre label. If it's a label that changes with information in the series then it becomes unnecessarily complicated as an organizing tool defeating the purpose of using it. |
GamerDLM said: I don't see the problem with changing ones view point when seeing new information which is relevant within the subject @Deknijff Okay so that cycles back to my issue with arguing the label in this context. Putting aside your personal opinion that a game world is not distinct enough to seemingly be considered a different world, that example provided implies that you really shouldn't be using the label on ongoing series that you haven't finished at all. I would argue if a series is presented as an isekai and then several years later adds new world building information it shouldn't dismiss the initial premise/sub-genre label. If it's a label that changes with information in the series then it becomes unnecessarily complicated as an organizing tool defeating the purpose of using it to define a premise. Expanding your knowledge and understanding regardless of what you used to think or believe should always be expected Id say to make sure you don't stay wrong simply because the tagging of settings, genres, premise or tropes becomes harder or different from what you initially suspected. Just like how scientists in different fields argue to reach a better understanding of things we want to understand which leads to the greater understanding of the facts which we have currently |
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| It might as well be, the main part of the plot always happens in the digital worlds. |
| Who are you and why do you show your hostility towards a complete stranger whom you've not once spoken with before. Are you seriously asking to get blocked? Well, if that's what your intent is; to tempt me into throwing hands with someone as lowly and insignificant as you, then i may grant your wish provided you articulate yourself a bit better when trying to spite a person of my wavelength. |
Deknijff said: GamerDLM said: I don't see the problem with changing ones view point when seeing new information which is relevant within the subject @Deknijff Okay so that cycles back to my issue with arguing the label in this context. Putting aside your personal opinion that a game world is not distinct enough to seemingly be considered a different world, that example provided implies that you really shouldn't be using the label on ongoing series that you haven't finished at all. I would argue if a series is presented as an isekai and then several years later adds new world building information it shouldn't dismiss the initial premise/sub-genre label. If it's a label that changes with information in the series then it becomes unnecessarily complicated as an organizing tool defeating the purpose of using it to define a premise. Expanding your knowledge and understanding regardless of what you used to think or believe should always be expected Id say to make sure you don't stay wrong simply because the tagging of settings, genres, premise or tropes becomes harder or different from what you initially suspected. Just like how scientists in different fields argue to reach a better understanding of things we want to understand which leads to the greater understanding of the facts which we have currently I would look at it more like this, if I'm watching something (for just a completely random example) like a 3 hour zombie flick and the twist is that it was all a dream it's still a zombie flick. Late story plot twists or story developments have no bearing on how a series should be generally categorized. I would personally rather not overgeneralize any series but categories are explicitly a tool for generalizing series based on how they present themselves to an audience and if minor nitpicks are enough to break a category they become useless in terms of function. In which case the only answer is to no longer use those categories which is just generally impractical for regular conversation. |
GamerDLMMay 1, 2020 7:57 AM
GamerDLM said: In the context of the dream movie I wouldn't mind calling it a zombie flick Deknijff said: I would look at it more like this, if I'm watching something (for just a completely random example) like a 3 hour zombie flick and the twist is that it was all a dream it's still a zombie flick. Late story plot twists or story developments have no bearing on how a series should be generally categorized. I would personally rather not overgeneralize any series but categories are explicitly a tool for generalizing series and if minor nitpicks are enough to break a category they become useless in terms of function.I don't see the problem with changing ones view point when seeing new information which is relevant within the subject Expanding your knowledge and understanding regardless of what you used to think or believe should always be expected Id say to make sure you don't stay wrong simply because the tagging of settings, genres, premise or tropes becomes harder or different from what you initially suspected. Just like how scientists in different fields argue to reach a better understanding of things we want to understand which leads to the greater understanding of the facts which we have currently This honestly a pretty good counter argument I feel and its really making me think but honestly this example I feel is hard because its hypothetical scenario so I don't have all the facts in front of me. I can however remember this episode from 6teen which is basically what you said in premise and when thinking of the episode I don't mind saying the episode is zombie themed in nature but the show itself isn't a zombie cartoon Perhaps I feel its not a valid comparison to the discussion of isekai because Isekai is a setting not a genre Zombies attacking or existing isn't a setting. A post apocalyptic world could be the setting of a story in which zombies are within that world but the zombies themselves aren't a setting like another parallel world is a setting for a story |
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| Was The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe the first isekai 1950? Alice in Wonderland 1865? Can't think of anything before this but what do you guys think? |
| “It is my perception that a true friend never relies on another's dream. A person with the potential to be my true friend must be able to find his reason for life without my help. And, he would have to put his heart and soul into protecting his dream. He would never hesitate to fight for his dream, even against me.” I'm level  on mal-badges. View my badges. |
| @Daniel_Naumov "Another world" means another world. Sword Art Online does not have other worlds. It only has one - the one we know as Earth human society. Inside it, however, there are numerous virtual realities, which exist as a part of the world Sword Art Online is situated in. Arguing otherwise is arguing against the substance, the fact, the definition itself. Arguing against the language and the common sense. Choose your side. MindOfOsaka said: They use the means of technology to access virtual worlds CREATED by themselves, by HUMANS. It is not an ANOTHER world. Learn the terminology everyone, this is forums, not kindergarten. I might be wrong (English is my 2nd language) but according to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pl/dictionary/english/another : >>> one more person or thing or an extra amount: I'm going to have another piece of cake. We can fit another person in my car. >>> a different person or thing: She's finished with that boyfriend and found herself another (one). Do you want to exchange this toaster for another (one) or do you want your money back? The definition doesn't say: - who can create another "thing" - how and where another "thing" is placed If you can sent me some good website where I can read what "another" really means for a native speaker then I would be glad. ___________________________________________________________ Imho, those terms are not very precise so we can have different opinions on different titles. Like magic. You have soft and hard magic system. Both systems are different yet "it's kind of magic". So, I like to call SAO (not whole) isekai. |
| I guess it's a virtual isekai but I don't really consider it a TRUE isekai series if the characters' physical bodies aren't really there. |
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| @Daniel_Naumov It's not always black and white (easy). Let's take yuri & shoujo ai terms. In the Japan yuri just mean lesbian relationship (normal romance and adult stuffs) and shoujo ai means... lesbian paedophile. Yet some people and MAL use shoujo ai for <18 titles and yuri for porn (or very sexual stuffs). |
Takuto_Shindou said: Do you want a prize for the dumbest topic Sorry, but that prize already go to that guy who request an anime about a black guy surrounded by Japanese girl. |
Catalano said: then ghost in the shell is not mecha because it doesnt have them transforming robots - Mecha means having piloted robots...them being transformable is not mandatory. - GITS have some of those. - It being mecha is not important because it's a small element of the whole thing which is mainly cyberpunk, detective, political thriller, action, post human traits speculation and some not so important philosophy quotes... |
| @Daniel_Naumov I'm talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change so your "long established" might change over time. |
xMyst93 said: In SAO unlike in the Matrix, the virtual world feels detached from the real world from the protagonists perspective. What happens in the real world is of no interest and the show largely ignores it, while in the Matrix a large part of the story plays outside and is very important. The Truma Show is fundamentally different, I don't really get why did you chose that as an example since there are better ones. As for Bofuri, I haven't seen or read it and I have no intention to.Would matrix, truman show, bofuri all be isekais ? |
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| @Heldengeist @xMyst93 Bofuri is just your VR game (you can logout whenever you want). |
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