| I want to know what was exactly wrong with Shirou's that would had led him to become EMIYA and become so self destructive? I know Shirou is trying to become a Seigi no Mikata or 'Ally of Justice' (not superhero as it is commonly translated as) but what was wrong with his ideals that it attacked by Archer and the rest of the cast? |
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| He realized that in the end you can't save everyone and what only awaited him at the end were eternal blood and fighting. Something like that? Idk. Can't think straight right now. |
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Guernsey said: I want to know what was exactly wrong with Shirou's that would had led him to become EMIYA and become so self destructive? I know Shirou is trying to become a Seigi no Mikata or 'Ally of Justice' (not superhero as it is commonly translated as) but what was wrong with his ideals that it attacked by Archer and the rest of the cast? Superhero is an absolutely valid translation. It's supposed to sound immature and childish. While Champion or Defender of Justice are closer to the more literal meaning, they in my opinion don't have that instant effect of sounding so ridiculous. Shirou's ideals are first of all not even his ideals, but Kiritsugu's. He is deep inside not complete as he can feel no true happiness unless others around him become happy and that is the only emotion that drives his life. His ideals are absolutely unrealistic, yet he still wants to make them come true by saving everyone, even though there comes a time when you have to choose sides. He wants to achieve this, to become a superhero, without killing people. Shirou deep inside knows he's a fake because all he does is trying to mimic Kiritsugu for the sake of this beautiful ideal. What he considers "justice" is not what others consider it to be. Archer kept protecting his ideals by going against them. He killed people again and again to save many more people, but he died satisfied, thinking even after his death he might become an aide and save people after he made a contract with Alaya. That matches with what Shirou wants to tell Saber in Fate. No matter what happened, embrace your life, including your tragedies. If you did everything right, but things still turned ugly, then there is nothing you can do about it. If you tried your best then you should be proud of what you've done and not deny or regret it. However, Archer lost his free will and serving as a Counter Guardian means balancing life like Kiritsugu did. The majority is more important than the minority and if the minority is getting in the way then you simply kill them. "Cleaning up" after humanity to save it is all he did. Archer started regretting his life when he learned that this cycle will repeat forever. In the end, the one thing he tried to protect, his ideals, betrayed him. All he wanted was not seeing the people around him cry, but that was all he saw and that is why he wanted to come back and prevent Shirou from becoming like him, going so far to kill him if it's necessary (I don't believe he ever believed he could escape from his contract). Shirou in UBW won't become Archer and he reminded Archer that there is nothing to regret, so Archer was able to achieve his objective. In HF, Archer gives up his scheming plans and resumes his duty as a Guardian because of the shadow. He approves of Shirou's decision to not kill Sakura and protect her because she is important to him, even though she is a potential danger to many people, because that is how Shirou from the beginning should have lived his life. With both of them dying, he decided to save Shirou and give him a tool, his arm, as a parting gift. |
CapsuleCoreJul 18, 2014 3:57 AM
| ^That's not to say his ideals are "wrong". Ideals do not necessarily need to be realistic, that's why they are ideals -its a path one follows. FSN is all about three different ways one would transition that dream of a child into adulthood, in a way showcasing three different ways an adult would view life upon transition from childhood. - Shirou could continue following the ideal, aware that it does not fit reality, but being committed towards it none-the-less, denying the harsh reality and treating the world as it should be instead of as it is, never regretting the path he chose. - Shirou could realize that reality and the ideal are not some sort of opposites and that implementing it and finding ways to implement it is possible as long as you recognize that its an ideal and not a be-all-solution to everything - that reality and ideal can coexist with each other. - Or Shirou could become disappointed with ideal and treat it as something that stays in childhood, recomitting himself towards readjusting his worldview towards reality where ideal is impossible, abandoning the childhood dream. Either way is valid way and either way is the way WE all handle our childhood dreams when growing up. The said ideals are only damaging and bad if Shirou does not reconcile it with growing up. Shirou's journey is a journey of a "void" person with borrowed ideals and its a journey about taking those borrowed truths and making your own truth and worldview from that. |
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C-Core said: Shirou in UBW won't become Archer and he reminded Archer that there is nothing to regret, so Archer was able to achieve his objective. In HF, Archer gives up his scheming plans and resumes his duty as a Guardian because of the shadow. He approves of Shirou's decision to not kill Sakura and protect her because she is important to him, even though she is a potential danger to many people, because that is how Shirou from the beginning should have lived his life. With both of them dying, he decided to save Shirou and give him a tool, his arm, as a parting gift. I'm still a bit confused about this part. So when Archer disappeared did he go back to the Seat of Heroic Spirit and continue being a guardian for all of eternity? Or does he cease to exist because Shirou will never become Archer? |
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Forgetfulness said: -Riptide- said: He will still be a Counter Guardian, because F/sn is a multiverse. I'm still a bit confused about this part. So when Archer disappeared did he go back to the Seat of Heroic Spirit and continue being a guardian for all of eternity? Or does he cease to exist because Shirou will never become Archer? Like for example, HF Shirou won't become Archer in the future, but Archer still existed in that HGW Even that very Archer that existed in the UBW route? |
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-Riptide- said: Forgetfulness said: He will still be a Counter Guardian, because F/sn is a multiverse. Like for example, HF Shirou won't become Archer in the future, but Archer still existed in that HGW Even that very Archer that existed in the UBW route? No matter what happens to Shirou during the HGW, even if he dies before Archer is summoned, Archer(any EMIYA) wont be affected at all. That is why his goal, killing Shirou, is futile, since even if he succeeds, nothing will change. |
ssjokg said: -Riptide- said: Even that very Archer that existed in the UBW route? No matter what happens to Shirou during the HGW, even if he dies before Archer is summoned, Archer(any EMIYA) wont be affected at all. That is why his goal, killing Shirou, is futile, since even if he succeeds, nothing will change. Then why go through all that effort to kill Shirou if its already futile? To have a sense of satisfaction? The Seat of Heroic Spirit is outside the time axis right? Shouldn't he already know that killing Shirou won't mean anything? |
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ssjokg said: No matter what happens to Shirou during the HGW, even if he dies before Archer is summoned, Archer(any EMIYA) wont be affected at all. That is why his goal, killing Shirou, is futile, since even if he succeeds, nothing will change. Not quite. If Shirou dies naturally, Archer would still exist, but Archer's theory is that if he kills Shirou himself, it would create a time paradox which would erase his status as a Counter Guardian. Of course, we don't know if he's correct or not. |
Devens said: ssjokg said: No matter what happens to Shirou during the HGW, even if he dies before Archer is summoned, Archer(any EMIYA) wont be affected at all. That is why his goal, killing Shirou, is futile, since even if he succeeds, nothing will change. Not quite. If Shirou dies naturally, Archer would still exist, but Archer's theory is that if he kills Shirou himself, it would create a time paradox which would erase his status as a Counter Guardian. Of course, we don't know if he's correct or not. He hopes that his method will work, he doesnt have anything to reassure him.It is just the last hope he has. -Riptide- said: Then why go through all that effort to kill Shirou if its already futile? To have a sense of satisfaction? The Seat of Heroic Spirit is outside the time axis right? Shouldn't he already know that killing Shirou won't mean anything? What I said above. |
-Riptide- said: ssjokg said: No matter what happens to Shirou during the HGW, even if he dies before Archer is summoned, Archer(any EMIYA) wont be affected at all. That is why his goal, killing Shirou, is futile, since even if he succeeds, nothing will change. Then why go through all that effort to kill Shirou if its already futile? To have a sense of satisfaction? The Seat of Heroic Spirit is outside the time axis right? Shouldn't he already know that killing Shirou won't mean anything? That is the nature of one's hopes. They might not be realistic, he might at some level be aware its futile, but its the only way that Archer can reconcile what he feels about his past self and what he felt about it for hundreds of years...In a way its not as much about actually committing to his goal and more about trying to find a semblance of meaning in his past life hence why in UBW . In a sense its quite similar to Saber's journey towards conquering her past regrets. |
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Fai said: So its like he'd rather do something about it even though he know its likely he will fail rather than accept his current situation? |
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-Riptide- said: Fai said: So its like he'd rather do something about it even though he know its likely he will fail rather than accept his current situation? Yes. What is sad is that he wont even remember that he gave up on it in some worlds, he will forget that he came to terms with his and Shirou's future. |
ssjokg said: -Riptide- said: So its like he'd rather do something about it even though he know its likely he will fail rather than accept his current situation? Yes. What is sad is that he wont even remember that he gave up on it in some worlds, he will forget that he came to terms with his and Shirou's future. Then he'll regret being a superhero again and try to kill Shirou in another world? Such a sad afterlife indeed. |
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-Riptide- said: Well, we know he did it 3 times minimum.Then he'll regret being a superhero again and try to kill Shirou in another world? Such a sad afterlife indeed. |
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Botato said: -Riptide- said: Well, we know he did it 3 times minimum.Then he'll regret being a superhero again and try to kill Shirou in another world? Such a sad afterlife indeed. Actually more, considering every bad end is a canon universe. |
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C-Core said: Superhero is an absolutely valid translation. It's supposed to sound immature and childish. While Champion or Defender of Justice are closer to the more literal meaning, they in my opinion don't have that instant effect of sounding so ridiculous. My headcanon with superhero is that it kind of relates to heroes such as Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, etc. but I guess it does have the same effect considering the themes of story. Fai said: ^That's not to say his ideals are "wrong". Ideals do not necessarily need to be realistic, that's why they are ideals -its a path one follows. FSN is all about three different ways one would transition that dream of a child into adulthood, in a way showcasing three different ways an adult would view life upon transition from childhood. - Shirou could continue following the ideal, aware that it does not fit reality, but being committed towards it none-the-less, denying the harsh reality and treating the world as it should be instead of as it is, never regretting the path he chose. - Shirou could realize that reality and the ideal are not some sort of opposites and that implementing it and finding ways to implement it is possible as long as you recognize that its an ideal and not a be-all-solution to everything - that reality and ideal can coexist with each other. - Or Shirou could become disappointed with ideal and treat it as something that stays in childhood, recomitting himself towards readjusting his worldview towards reality where ideal is impossible, abandoning the childhood dream. Either way is valid way and either way is the way WE all handle our childhood dreams when growing up. The said ideals are only damaging and bad if Shirou does not reconcile it with growing up. Shirou's journey is a journey of a "void" person with borrowed ideals and its a journey about taking those borrowed truths and making your own truth and worldview from that. The problem with Shiruou's ideals is that they had been borrowed and not his own. It also has a lot of hypocrisy in that he cannot save everybody and if he continues this path, he may become EMIYA who would have to kill in order to save one thousand people. |
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| Everything almost at least -.- |
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Guernsey said: The problem with Shiruou's ideals is that they had been borrowed and not his own. It also has a lot of hypocrisy in that he cannot save everybody and if he continues this path, he may become EMIYA who would have to kill in order to save one thousand people. Only SHirou who does not resolve his ideals has that chance of becoming EMIYA. The chances of the main route shirous becoming EMIYA are zero. |
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Fai said: Guernsey said: The problem with Shiruou's ideals is that they had been borrowed and not his own. It also has a lot of hypocrisy in that he cannot save everybody and if he continues this path, he may become EMIYA who would have to kill in order to save one thousand people. Only SHirou who does not resolve his ideals has that chance of becoming EMIYA. The chances of the main route shirous becoming EMIYA are zero. Wrong.It is close to zero but they exist. Any Shirou even HF can become EMIYA, resolve has nothing to do with it, since EMIYA, DID have that resolve during his life. Guernsey said: The problem with Shiruou's ideals is that they had been borrowed and not his own. It also has a lot of hypocrisy in that he cannot save everybody and if he continues this path, he may become EMIYA who would have to kill in order to save one thousand people. You do realize that no ideal is original right?The difference Shirou makes is that he has nothing else.His ideal even if 100% borrowed is the only thing that leads his empty self. How is that hypocrisy? Fate!Shirou DOESNT believe that his ideal is flawed and doesnt criticize it. UBW!Shirou realizes its flaws but will try hard to overcome them. HF!Shirou realizes his flaws but decides to first save his important one and then everyone else.And he acknowledges that "mistake", he doesnt try to make excuses. |
ssjokg said: Fai said: Only SHirou who does not resolve his ideals has that chance of becoming EMIYA. The chances of the main route shirous becoming EMIYA are zero. Wrong.It is close to zero but they exist. Any Shirou even HF can become EMIYA, resolve has nothing to do with it, since EMIYA, DID have that resolve during his life. RESOLUTION NOT RESOLVE. Its canon that while they COULD, the chance is so miniscule that They DO NOT. Archer never reached a definite conclusion to his dilemma, till his ideals destroyed him - its how Shirou would turn out if he did not learn from his experiences in this war and make his own choice. THe three shirous we see did come to their own conclusions. So while the chance is there, its so damn miniscule that its pretty much zero and they won't become that, so please stop arguing semantics. |
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Fai said: ssjokg said: Wrong.It is close to zero but they exist. Any Shirou even HF can become EMIYA, resolve has nothing to do with it, since EMIYA, DID have that resolve during his life. RESOLUTION NOT RESOLVE. Its canon that while they COULD, the chance is so miniscule that They DO NOT. Archer never reached a definite conclusion to his dilemma, till his ideals destroyed him - its how Shirou would turn out if he did not learn from his experiences in this war and make his own choice. THe three shirous we see did come to their own conclusions. ]So while the chance is there, its so damn miniscule that its pretty much zero and they won't become that, so please stop arguing semantics. Ha, look who is talking. |
ssjokg said: Fai said: RESOLUTION NOT RESOLVE. Its canon that while they COULD, the chance is so miniscule that They DO NOT. Archer never reached a definite conclusion to his dilemma, till his ideals destroyed him - its how Shirou would turn out if he did not learn from his experiences in this war and make his own choice. THe three shirous we see did come to their own conclusions. ]So while the chance is there, its so damn miniscule that its pretty much zero and they won't become that, so please stop arguing semantics. Ha, look who is talking. Shirou does more or less learn not to let his ideals distract form the reality. He learns to compromise and realizes his weaknesses as well as his strengths. Shirou does kind of half a chance at becoming EMIYA but didn't have Rin to stop him at the time? |
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Guernsey said: Em ...no to all.ssjokg said: Ha, look who is talking. Shirou does more or less learn not to let his ideals distract form the reality. He learns to compromise and realizes his weaknesses as well as his strengths. Shirou does kind of half a chance at becoming EMIYA but didn't have Rin to stop him at the time? |
Guernsey said: ssjokg said: Ha, look who is talking. Shirou does more or less learn not to let his ideals distract form the reality. He learns to compromise and realizes his weaknesses as well as his strengths. Shirou does kind of half a chance at becoming EMIYA but didn't have Rin to stop him at the time? THat's only true for UBW Shirou, who tries to find a way to make reality and ideal to coexist. Rin in this case balances him out, both of them being better off for it Fate Shirou simply does not care and has no regrets following the path he does, no matter what, never regretting his choices, just like Saber in the end did not regret her's. HF Shirou simply gives no fucks about his ideal. |
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| HF Shirou only gives up Kiritsugu's warped ideal though, to kill one to save many more, to act like a machine that sees all lives as equal, whether it's the person he loves the most or his worst enemy, and then ensuring the maximum number of survivors. He still sticks to saving people, everyone if possible, and in some people's eyes more than ever before, but he values some lives more than others' and will save those who are important to him first. Ilya, Rin, Archer... pretty much every ally and friend of Shirou's supports this. |
| HF Shirou still pursuits his ideals but rejects Kiritsugu's and EMIYA's paths. Shirou is also at his most adult as he learns the hard way that he cannot save everyone and we will have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. |
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Guernsey said: HF Shirou still pursuits his ideals but rejects Kiritsugu's and EMIYA's paths. Shirou is also at his most adult as he learns the hard way that he cannot save everyone and we will have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. I dont think we can say that about EMIYA's path since we dont really know what he did in the war, but if the "Ilya route" that was scrapped was his origin, then it is just like HF but with ILya instead of Sakura. He realizes that in UBW as well(you know...Ilya) but he will still try to save everyone just like in HF. |
Guernsey said: HF Shirou still pursuits his ideals but rejects Kiritsugu's and EMIYA's paths. Shirou is also at his most adult as he learns the hard way that he cannot save everyone and we will have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. Except for the bolded part (which is exactly what he doesn't want to do), this is what I wrote above... |
| ^ Yeah it was. There was also another concern for Kiritsugu's ideals, say you kill one to save ten and you kill ten to save hundred, when does the killing actually stop? Where is the line drawn? At least Shirou acknowledges that he cannot save everyone using those methods or that he is only human. |
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| When he realizes that the dead are more than those he saved.Kinda like the dream in the grail, but he would never reach that point. Em...I dont think he ever considered such a method, except from MoS ending, so instead of "acknowledges" I would say the idea never crossed his mind. |
ssjokg said: I would say the idea never crossed his mind. This is #Trufax |
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Guernsey said: HF Shirou still pursuits his ideals but rejects Kiritsugu's and EMIYA's paths. Shirou is also at his most adult as he learns the hard way that he cannot save everyone and we will have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. Different definition of "adult" Every path in every route is acceptable route to adulthood. We can try to realize our dreams not letting them be tainted by reality's awfulness, we can try to coincide them both and enjoy both sides or we can burn our dreams for the sake of facing reality. None of the paths are anyway "more adult" or "more worthy", hence why all three are equally canon. Which is "better" is pretty much up to an opinion of the reader/viewer. I personally find Shirou's utterly cynical uptake of HF downright disgusting. |
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Fai said: Guernsey said: HF Shirou still pursuits his ideals but rejects Kiritsugu's and EMIYA's paths. Shirou is also at his most adult as he learns the hard way that he cannot save everyone and we will have to make a sacrifice for the greater good. Different definition of "adult" Every path in every route is acceptable route to adulthood. We can try to realize our dreams not letting them be tainted by reality's awfulness, we can try to coincide them both and enjoy both sides or we can burn our dreams for the sake of facing reality. None of the paths are anyway "more adult" or "more worthy", hence why all three are equally canon. Which is "better" is pretty much up to an opinion of the reader/viewer. I personally find Shirou's utterly cynical uptake of HF downright disgusting. So all this time that we , TM "experts" were calling Kiritsugu naive and childish,it had nothing to do with the form of his ideals huh.... So remaining naive and not changing his ideal, trying to overcome the flaws of that ideal and choosing the best for himself option in that ideal( something his mocked-by-everyone-stepfather failed to do) are all paths to adulthood? While we are at it, I want you to explain something I was curious for a long time.Why is Shirou and his choice cynical? How disgusting of him to save his loved one.Because killing her, would again somehow, make his "perfect" ideal come true. |
Fai said: I personally find Shirou's utterly cynical uptake of HF downright disgusting. Well a nihilistic theme tends to do that.... I smell some Sakura H8 though(forgive me if I'm mistaken) |
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ssjokg said: So all this time that we , TM "experts" were calling Kiritsugu naive and childish,it had nothing to do with the form of his ideals huh.... So remaining naive and not changing his ideal, trying to overcome the flaws of that ideal and choosing the best for himself option in that ideal( something his mocked-by-everyone-stepfather failed to do) are all paths to adulthood? Stop shitting out bullshit, ty. Kerry was IGNORANT and hypocritical. THat's not same as resolved. Kerry followed same path as Archer in that aspect, even if their ideals were different. Shirou is aware of what his ideal means in fate route, but he is resolved to follow it - not because of some misguided thought htat its possible like Kerry, but because he feels its RIGHT and he is ready to pay the price, just like Saber did. THAT's progress. Just because character does not CHANGE the direction, does not mean that's not growth - reaffirmation of character road or adjustment of it is still growth. How disgusting of him to save his loved one.Because killing her, would again somehow, make his "perfect" ideal come true. Because its tunnel-vision choice, the choices are not cut-and-dry nor they are two. He could resolve to save both the damsel and the world, hence why damastah said: Fai said: I personally find Shirou's utterly cynical uptake of HF downright disgusting. Well a nihilistic theme tends to do that.... I smell some Sakura H8 though(forgive me if I'm mistaken) I hate the lack of depth to normal-sakura. I like the sakura depth post-twist, but I feel that everrything before that is one-dimensional and grating on nerves for sake of tweeeeeeeest. Shirou is just unlikeable in that route for me. HF is second fav route for me for badassery, but certainly not for characters(apart from Rin who is badass there) |
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| Hahaha.So Shirou who follows the ideal of someone else without accepting its flaws isnt ignorant and hypocritical?And resolved doesnt mean mature or good.Kiritusgu was resolved to tip scales before meeting Iri.That didnt make his choices better. Your description of Fate Shirou is very much like UBW Shirou, so what is the point of his development in UBW? That is not progress.He still remains a "child" that follows an impossible ideal just because he cant see anything else.THAT is tunnel-vision. And please. 1)Ilya has the awesome power of infinite mana, she is a wish granting machine.Shirou is a shit tier magus apprentice, that can barely save the girl he loves. 2)I forgot that in HF, there was only one enemy faction, and Shirou had a ton of reliable allies+weapons for his fights.And I also forgot that his loved one had totally lost it and wasnt exactly on his side, waiting for him. Basically you wanted him to make a choice that wouldnt lead to anything good just so he could look more badass. No matter how it looks, Ilya's choice isnt perfect or reasonable,it is over the top,not impossible since we all know she will succeed, but definitely not perfect or reasonable. "Both" Sakuras are the same character.You cant separate them just so you can bitch about HF/Sakura. Guy gives up a self destructing ideal, and tries to save his loved one and everyone around him thinks he did the best choice.And then Fai came. Still didnt answer my question about Shirou/his choice being cynical. |
ssjokgJul 21, 2014 12:43 PM
| The whole point of UBW is that Shirou's ideal is not wrong. Nothing is wrong as long as you believe in it and see it through until the end. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: So what's the point of it if Fate does the exact same thing?The whole point of UBW is that Shirou's ideal is not wrong. Nothing is wrong as long as you believe in it and see it through until the end. |
ssjokg said: BloodRequiem said: So what's the point of it if Fate does the exact same thing?The whole point of UBW is that Shirou's ideal is not wrong. Nothing is wrong as long as you believe in it and see it through until the end. Hold on, doesn't Shirou learn this in UBW and kept upheld his ideal in Fate? |
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Psajdak said: Aside from being ideals of 6 years old kid who watched too much times Superman saving the world, nothing really. I don't know shjirou's ideals have more in common with Japanese superheroes rather than Western ones. |
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Guernsey said: Has nothing to do with that.Psajdak said: Aside from being ideals of 6 years old kid who watched too much times Superman saving the world, nothing really. I don't know shjirou's ideals have more in common with Japanese superheroes rather than Western ones. A near 30 year old man is cool when he wants to become the savior of the world but a 16 year old is a freaking kid? Well double standards FTW.If it's even that. |
| You arent in position to criticize either of them when you couldnt understand Kiritsugu's ideal before the flashbacks. Then again you find someone that treats others as shit, rapes and tries to kill people because he feels like it, when he himself doesnt have any real power or status and is treated as shit even from his only blood related family member as a good character that everyone should have liked. |
ssjokgSep 2, 2014 7:48 AM
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