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| Poor Ledo! He's questioning everything he's been doing, and Chamber is just being stupid (well he's programmed a certain way and he's a robot, so I don't expect him to understand Ledo) THE COMMANDER!!! :O |
Zulichka said: Wordsmith said: What? Come again? It was just my impression from the story. They were Evolvers once but they gave up all humanity and became mindless. Chambers line: "If living beings only seek out happiness and gratification, it isn't necessary for them to have a higher intellect" That sounds like they are mindless, they function on instinct: eat, reproduce, expand ... Higher intellect according to chamber = reliance on Technology like Chamber and creation of technology like chamber. |
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Fai said: Pinnion is one of the best villains/antagonist written in last few years .His reasons are understandable, he is perfectly flawed and hate able, yet also relatable and not over-the-top. Sorry, I can't agree with you there. I can't relate to Pinion at all and even though I do like the idea of salvaging, I'd rather side with Bellow's method of doing it than Pinion's. Also, I find his 'reason' (avenging his brother) an obvious attempt by some lame writers to add depth to his character by making up some sob story out of nowhere and popping it in as if nothing will be disrupted. His other bits of reasoning, such as concerned with making his fleet appear invincible and trying to ward off other ships who want the treasure, are childish and naive. Overall, this makes him irritating- like someone you'd roll your eyes at- rather than hateful. Light became despicable, Lelouch was unbelievable, and that bearded commander from Shingeki no Kyojin was detestable along with a bazillion other anime villains who are insufferable enough that you were torn between recognizing them in awe and stabbing your screen enough times to leave a hole. But Pinion? He's merely laughable at best. |
SpiraiJun 9, 2013 2:46 PM
| WELP.. Kugel is back and he's with some very weird ass Cult group. They're picking up Hideauze bodies all around, I bet they're going to fucking experiment on them and then do some weird ass mutation all over again. |
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Spirai said: Fai said: Pinnion is one of the best villains/antagonist written in last few years .His reasons are understandable, he is perfectly flawed and hate able, yet also relatable and not over-the-top. Sorry, I can't agree with you there. I can't relate to Pinion at all and even though I do like the idea of salvaging, I'd rather side with Bellow's method of doing it than Pinion's. Also, I find his 'reason' (avenging his brother) an obvious attempt by some lame writers to add depth to his character by making up some sob story out of nowhere and popping it in as if nothing will be disrupted. His other bits of reasoning, such as concerned with making his fleet appear invincible and trying to ward off other ships who want the treasure, to be childish and naive. Overall, this makes his irritating- like someone you'd roll your eyes at- than hateful. Light became despicable, Lelouch was somewhat hate-able (albeit at the same time lovable), and a bazillion other anime villains who were insufferable enough that you were torn between recognizing them in awe and stabbing your screen enough times to leave a hole. But Pinion? He's a laughing-stock. your reasoning falls apart when mentioning Raito and Lelouch as rolemodels for villains, considering both of them were very over-the-top cartoon-type "muhaha I am so evil" type of character(Lelouch less so since he is more of a typical "ends over means, haha I kill babies to save babies" type of guy) Pinion is essentially the most human character this season. His fame-seeking is irrational, but rarely anything is rational in humanity and his psychological profile due to trauma at loss of his brother supports the idea of his macho-ism as a protective mechanism. At the same time he is subject to the very basic human lust of power and control, which yet again fits his psychological profile as someone who did not have that much of power or say in the matter of things. Tyrel said: WELP.. Kugel is back and he's with some very weird ass Cult group. They're picking up Hideauze bodies all around, I bet they're going to fucking experiment on them and then do some weird ass mutation all over again. Calling it - it will end up being hideauze vs alliance type of conflict on smaller scale and as Ledo ends up solving it here, leading to both species coexisting, he leaves to bring that kind of solution on t he larger scale conflict in space. Deleth said: Fai said: Higher intellect according to chamber = reliance on Technology like Chamber and creation of technology like chamber. Which isn't exactly wrong, the more intelligent we become the more reliant we become on technologic. Nowadays we are unable to digest things our ancestors could, we have to clean our water and prepare our food when our earliest ancestors could eat much of it raw. Which would in fact indicate that the Hideazu aren't "that intelligent" anymore. They don't need technology, they don't need intelligence. This kind of argumentation relies on scientific advancement as proof of intellect and sheds the idea of transcendence. Shouldn't human intellect be allowed to transcend its weaknesses over time? Couldn't our consciousness eventually evolve past the need for physical form? What would "technology" be worth to us then? Nothing. |
AhenshihaelJun 9, 2013 2:46 PM
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Zulichka said: Fai said: Higher intellect according to chamber = reliance on Technology like Chamber and creation of technology like chamber. I don't think Alliance is controlled by robots and I'm so curious to see if I'm wrong about that. Also, don't think Chamber has personal preference or ego, or anything that would cause him to influence Ledo for his own gain. He is a machine that does as he is programmed to, he makes a practical analysis based on facts and if he appears to have an opinion, it is the opinion of his makers which doesn't necessarily make it wrong. He did not just "MAKE" an analysis. He presented us with a very complex subjective opinion and world philosophy - something he would NOT have if he was an unaware AI. The very reveal that he is an aware AI indicates personal preferences and ego. |
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Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ |
AntanaruJun 9, 2013 2:57 PM
Ii tenki desu ne... |
Fai said: Spirai said: Fai said: Pinnion is one of the best villains/antagonist written in last few years .His reasons are understandable, he is perfectly flawed and hate able, yet also relatable and not over-the-top. Sorry, I can't agree with you there. I can't relate to Pinion at all and even though I do like the idea of salvaging, I'd rather side with Bellow's method of doing it than Pinion's. Also, I find his 'reason' (avenging his brother) an obvious attempt by some lame writers to add depth to his character by making up some sob story out of nowhere and popping it in as if nothing will be disrupted. His other bits of reasoning, such as concerned with making his fleet appear invincible and trying to ward off other ships who want the treasure, to be childish and naive. Overall, this makes his irritating- like someone you'd roll your eyes at- than hateful. Light became despicable, Lelouch was somewhat hate-able (albeit at the same time lovable), and a bazillion other anime villains who were insufferable enough that you were torn between recognizing them in awe and stabbing your screen enough times to leave a hole. But Pinion? He's a laughing-stock. your reasoning falls apart when mentioning Raito and Lelouch as rolemodels for villains, considering both of them were very over-the-top cartoon-type "muhaha I am so evil" type of character(Lelouch less so since he is more of a typical "ends over means, haha I kill babies to save babies" type of guy) Pinion is essentially the most human character this season. His fame-seeking is irrational, but rarely anything is rational in humanity and his psychological profile due to trauma at loss of his brother supports the idea of his macho-ism as a protective mechanism. At the same time he is subject to the very basic human lust of power and control, which yet again fits his psychological profile as someone who did not have that much of power or say in the matter of things. Yeah, I pretty much failed at naming a good list of villains since I don't know many. So if anyone has a list, feel free to post it. But overall, I have seen enough villains- and not just over the top ones- to know that Pinion is a pitiful comparison. I feel like a villain should be, at the very least, intelligent if he wants to harnass any sort of power or control whereas Pinion just seems as if he's not even thinking and is more concerned with living in the moment. However, each to their own. Maybe he'll get better at being 'evil' before the series ends. |
| Little heavy handed with Chambers lecture to Ledo in the second half but was engaging to listen to nonetheless. Yeah Hideauze are evolved from humans but they're mere shells of their former selves now that they rejected their humanity. Was surprised when Chamber said his link is severed from the Galactic Alliance, woulda been disappointed if Chamber turned out to be the final boss Oh snap, Kugel's back! He probably knew about the Hideauze the whole time or found out himself when he landed on Earth. His crew looks like a cult about to go on a rampage so I find it doubtful Ledo and Kugel will be able to be on good terms. |
linchpin said: I'm sure the Hideauze would have a good laugh at "the human dignity" part if they heard that speech. The Hideauze do not have those kind of reasons to fight. I'm quite sure they are convinced they surpassed humanity. They are strong, they are safe, they can live on light in vacuum. The conflict of two survival strategies? Every species on Earth has a different survival strategy, each and every one of them wants to survive. And most of them coexist without getting in each other's way. Conflicts arise when two species belong to the same ecological niche and fight over resources or territory. I can't see how the Hideauze and the Alliance could compete for territory given that the Hideauze can live almost anywhere in the universe and resources - the Hideauze don't need them. To me, the conflict between Hideauze and The Alliance is like the conflicting survival strategy of mice and whales. Mice in Machine Calibers. Yep! I completely agree. These all are valid questions and those who think that the war with Hideauze is justified - should first explain on these points. Otherwise - they are just fanatics, who want to kill. |
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Deleth said: It's bad characterization and makes little sense. He has no problem killing entire ships full of humans, turning them into ash. But finding out that the abominations who so far slaughtered millions of humans, who are threatening human existance both in space and on earth and have shown no problem with attacking and killing humans so far at no point showing more then rudimentary intelligence used to be humans makes him have a breakdown, really? Lol, you just skipped episode 3-8. whalesquids in the current planet don't actually attack people randomly just because they feel doing so. They only engage when people do some offensive thing to them like invading their nest and so on. Furthermore, looking back at all the slice of life episode to build-up and develop Ledo's character, he was able to feel the warmth of human and it made him a different person from what he was in the beginning. I agree with someone said earlier, genocide is and will never be a correct answer. If we want to annihilate all living things just because they posses threats then we aren't different from monster. And there's a fact that u guys can't deny, Hideauze were once human, they only choose different approach to innovate. Let's just say human were divided into 2 types: 1/ People who prefer technology to advance. 2/ People who prefer biology to advance. They are all human, the difference is just mindset. |
Deleth said: GDL-URAHARA said: Yep, I am disturbed as well. So many people here wanting to kill superior life form. How is the Hideauze a threat? They don't neet the resources which weaker-body-humans need. So where is the conflict? Why do you need to kill? Just to kill some one because they are superior in something than you? Based on that, bringing it to current reality: So if some one is better than you - they need to be killed. Hm. Ok. Let's see where is lot's of money - US. Kill all Americans. And this is not terrorism. This is justified survival of weaker humans. /s What is this I don't even... The Hideazu are not superior in any kind of way, if anything they are different. The reason for fighting them is one the reason to try and keep yourself from eventually being overcome by them. The Hideazu are antagonistic to humans, period. They have given up on culture, they have given up on technology, they have given up on civilization and pretty much devolved to running on pure instincts. The ones on earth live in giant swarms putting their "babies" all over the place with little concern to them. For all purposes they're closer to animals that anything else. That being said, Hideazu have at several points even on Earth attacked and killed humans with little concern for them. Pinions brother was killed, the salvage girl was attacked. Hideazu do travel beyond their territory, such a huge swarm being outside and running right into Gargantia can actually serve as proof for them in fact slowly expanding their reach driving into human territory. Currently the humans on Earth live in a way that is not sustainable in any kind of way, they are between a rock and a hard place without many of them noticing it. If they keep going at their current pace, they will die out in a few generations. The Hideazu most likely will not allow for any technological developement, so simply by trying to stay alive they would get into conflict with the Earth ones and expanding into space will bring them into conflict with the space Hideazu. Marzan said: I got extremely concerned at the faces of those in the cultish group that is accompanying Commander Kugel. That doesn't bode well for Ledo. Chamber's speech was thought provoking and right on many points. There is one flaw though, and that is the Hideauze left on Earth are either a devolved species of Hideauze or have simply become used to a peaceful lifestyle unlike their space brethren (just like the humans of Gargantia are different to the Galactic Alliance despite having the exact same genes). IN that sense, Chamber/Ledo do not have an obligation to fight and destroy the WhaleSquid. Actually, they do. The Earth Hideazu do attack and kill humans, we've seen that happen on several occasions. They might just be devolved because they currently are the prime apex predator and humans such as the Gargantian humans are merely another prey for them. The Gargantian life style is not sustainable, something has to change and about everything will lead to conflict with the Hideazu. The Hideazu who go back to people who had no concerns for ethics and laws of their time, people who commited atrocious experiments and tried to pretty much end humans as they were back then. The Hideazu are antagonistic to humans, period. Period my ass. No proof of that. On Earth people and whalesquids have been coexisting peacefully for generations and the humans don't remember a different past besides tales of "land". For all purposes they're closer to animals that anything else. And the reason to kill them is their lifestyle, huh? What if I decided that I just want to swim around in the ocean (provided I could) until I die. Would you kill me too? LOL at criticizing whalesquids for the way their babies grow. I could go "eeewwww" at the parasitic relationship between the human fetus and the mother, the ugliness of the placenta and the pain of birth - it would make as much sense. Given up on technology? Technology is there just to make our lives easier. Technology is obsolete in the face of Hideauze capabilities. They already have all the technology to make their lives easy built right into their bodies. Whalesquids attack people? Don't you think that if one of them jumped onto Gargantia and proceeded to the nursery, people would kill it too? That's what Pinion's brother did. Currently the humans on Earth live in a way that is not sustainable in any kind of way, Yeah, SOOO not sustainable. You missed those slice of life episodes? IMO, they are doing good. They are living simple, but fulfilling lives, they work together, help each other, smile, dance etc. They've lived like this for generations. And if nothing changed, would continue to live like this. they currently are the prime apex predator Yeah. They eat humans for a living. LOL. Did you miss that part about how they get their energy from the nanobots? |
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Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. |
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Fai said: Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. This reminds me of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood around episode 2 or 3 when the dad turned his daughter into chimera, and elric had to kill them. They were not human anymore, but, they were once human. I had a hard time digest to that. |
Takana_no_Hana said: Fai said: Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. This reminds me of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood around episode 2 or 3 when the dad turned his daughter into chimera, and elric had to kill them. They were not human anymore, but, they were once human. I had a hard time digest to that. Errrr. you must have been watching a different show considering Edward never did that. He never ever even CONSIDER killing them. |
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| It's episode 10 and we only touch the beginning of the story. It this show meant to have a 2nd season ? |
Zulichka said: There seems to be two firm beliefs around here: 1. Hideauze are superior beings, newtype human things that just want to be left alone and regular humans that depend on technology are being controlled by AI which pushes them into committing genocide for fear of becoming obsolete. 2. Alliance is fighting a desperate battle to survive using technology and achievements of human intellect against malicious life form which was created when human beings sacrificed their thought to adapt to life in space. Wonder which one is going to turn out to be true. 3. Hideauze and Alliance are equally as alien equally as dangerous two civilizations, one of biologically-advanced species, the other of technology advancing species possibly controlled by their AI's, fighting an unjustified fanatical war that neither of them really started, yet neither really tried to stop. |
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Fai said: Zulichka said: There seems to be two firm beliefs around here: 1. Hideauze are superior beings, newtype human things that just want to be left alone and regular humans that depend on technology are being controlled by AI which pushes them into committing genocide for fear of becoming obsolete. 2. Alliance is fighting a desperate battle to survive using technology and achievements of human intellect against malicious life form which was created when human beings sacrificed their thought to adapt to life in space. Wonder which one is going to turn out to be true. 3. Hideauze and Alliance are equally as alien equally as dangerous two civilizations, one of biologically-advanced species, the other of technology advancing species possibly controlled by their AI's, fighting an unjustified fanatical war that neither of them really started, yet neither really tried to stop. Oh, but we know who started the war. The thing we don't know, is who started it AGAIN, in space. As I said in my "choose your side" thread: I said: It was the Alliance that followed the Evolvers and were launching a suprise attack on their nest (after having built Avalon), because (citation from HorribleSubs): But you must never forget a merciless evil lurks in the depths of this cruel universe. We must end the threat of the Hideauze, who would hinder our journey onward! We must not allow these lower life forms to hold back humanity's race to the future! (...) Ceasing REM Hypnosis Education" |
linchpinJun 9, 2013 3:27 PM
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| "The war between the Galactic Alliance of Humankind and the Hideauze is a conflict between two different survival strategies, one in which being culled is all that waits for the losing side." Ledo happened to be born in the GA side. Same would happen if he were to be born in the H side. If I know Urobuchi Gen well enough, in the end of the show, there won't be a totally wrong side. You either choose one of the sides based on your own arguments, or will just comply that, it was the flow of the nature of the corrupt human soul. |
| It is not dead which can eternal lie; And with strange aeons even death may die. |
linchpin said: Fai said: Zulichka said: There seems to be two firm beliefs around here: 1. Hideauze are superior beings, newtype human things that just want to be left alone and regular humans that depend on technology are being controlled by AI which pushes them into committing genocide for fear of becoming obsolete. 2. Alliance is fighting a desperate battle to survive using technology and achievements of human intellect against malicious life form which was created when human beings sacrificed their thought to adapt to life in space. Wonder which one is going to turn out to be true. 3. Hideauze and Alliance are equally as alien equally as dangerous two civilizations, one of biologically-advanced species, the other of technology advancing species possibly controlled by their AI's, fighting an unjustified fanatical war that neither of them really started, yet neither really tried to stop. Oh, but we know who started the war. The thing we don't know, is who started it AGAIN, in space. We don't know if they ever stopped battling. They could have fought, stopped, and started again. Or, they could have just kept on fighting on the whole entire time. There's actually a shortage of information as to how the Alliance actually runs, the role and effects of the AIs, whether the war was continuous or did it have a break in the middle before one side initiated an attack, how the Hideauze function (the ones in space and on Earth), and are they really human (what are these standards that one must meet in order to be considered human anyways), etc. So, like Fai said, it could very well be option number 3. I just hope we'll get answers before too long. Although I suspect they won't want to deliver a clear-cut answer, I would like to reach some indisputable conclusion by the end. |
Hase0 said: It's episode 10 and we only touch the beginning of the story. It this show meant to have a 2nd season ? it wouldn't be bad to have a second season, sadly no second season have been announced yet, which at this point it should have already if there was one |
 Fixes to make the Profile more bearable after "the Modern★Profile★Update★★Rip★Profile★" |
Spirai said: We don't know if they ever stopped battling. They could have fought, stopped, and started again. Or, they could have just kept on fighting on the whole entire time. There's actually a shortage of information as to how the Alliance actually runs, the role and effects of the AIs, whether the war was continuous or did it have a break in the middle before one side initiated an attack, how the Hideauze function (the ones in space and on Earth), and are they really human (what are these standards that one must meet in order to be considered human anyways), etc. So, like Fai said, it could very well be option number 3. I just hope we'll get answers before too long. Although I suspect they won't want to deliver a clear-cut answer, I would like to reach some indisputable conclusion by the end. There must have been a considerable amount of time before the CU and the Evolvers (who jumped through the wormhole) met again. This is what I believe: It was the Alliance that followed the Evolvers and were launching a suprise attack on their nest (after having built Avalon), because (citation from HorribleSubs): But you must never forget a merciless evil lurks in the depths of this cruel universe. We must end the threat of the Hideauze, who would hinder our journey onward! We must not allow these lower life forms to hold back humanity's race to the future! (...) Ceasing REM Hypnosis Education" Deleth said: - Apparently both sides manage to use the gate before it presumely is destroyed (it might actually still be there) and the war rages one. With the Continental Union becoming the Galactic Alliance and both sides radicalizing more and more. Apparently, I disagree. The CU would not be stranded on Earth. They've been building a fleet of starships. I think most people believe that the Evolvers succeeded in hijacking the wormhole, jumping and destroying it behind them. The CU then either rebuilt it (well, they couldn't suddenly forget they had the technology, right)? Or they took the long route and went into space on their spaceships. |
linchpinJun 9, 2013 3:38 PM
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Hase0 said: It's episode 10 and we only touch the beginning of the story. It this show meant to have a 2nd season ? You missed the entire point of the story then. Gargantia is the story of how a young boy who only knows war, becomes human for the first time. THAT is central to the plot, everything else is the backdrop. Christ... |
| I really like the different perspectives we're getting here. This episode eased some of my qualms from last episode about the direction the show was going with Ledo's internal conflicts. It's just a shame that we didn't get introduced to the real meat of the story until recently, because with the amount of depth being put into the story at this point, I can see this being utilized for so many more episodes than the remaining three we're designated for a one cour series. I was initially uninterested in this episode, but Chamber's monologue added a lot of facets to understanding the situation. The Hideauze=humans twist seemed kind of cheap at first (to me, at least), but I love how it's being manipulated around so that it's not another one-sided rehash of a familiar setup. I thought that cliffhanger was done really well. After completely neglecting and abandoning the thought that another member of the Galactic Alliance might show up episodes ago, this caught me off guard, yet didn't leave off with a solid notion of impending doom but rather more of an ambiguous intent. I can't wait for the next episode. |
ScipioXII said: Fai said: Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. Your reasoning is stupid and silly. They are not just "different". They've thrown away their humanity, they've altered their DNA and they are no longer a species called human. This is entirely irrelevant to homopohbes and racists, and the separation of these species in this show are undeniably clear. It was the Hideauze who wanted to hi-jack the worm hole and spread across the galaxy. The Hideauze currently are nothing more than barbaric organism who operate out instinct. Just as they killed Pinion brother simply for being in an area of their nest. They're not humans. Just as we don't consider life we may have come from as equals to us. They should be eradicated, period. Hypocrisy continues. Who are you to DEFINE what it means to be human? Just like homophobes and racists DO NOT Have that right, neither do you or alliance. Just because someone looks different TO YOU, does not give you the right to blow it up. That's the kind of rotten logic Bush's USA was running on and we all know where it got us. None have the right to attack the other simply due to difference of ideals or how they look. THe basis you use right now for your argument is the same kind of argument the slaughter of native americans was based on, same kind of argument that allowed the mistreatment delivered to people of color by white people. Same kind of argument the offensive racist "science" tools like phrenology are based upon. AS for wormhole gate thing - I already explained that in previous thread and won't be going back to it. tl;dr version of it would be that allowing alliance to have a headstard would mean eradication of evolvers. |
AhenshihaelJun 9, 2013 3:40 PM
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| Why is this thread always so tl;dr? Are people really getting that heated about this, I literally cannot read the wall of text before me. I have enjoyed the twist in the last 2 episodes though. I wonder if he is going to rebel now that someone from the alliance has appeared. If he does it could have terrible consequences for all the fleets on earth. They said it would be a "grey" ending so I'm not expecting too much impending doom but it would be intriguing. |
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ScipioXII said: Fai said: Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. Your reasoning is stupid and silly. They are not just "different". They've thrown away their humanity, they've altered their DNA and they are no longer a species called human. This is entirely irrelevant to homopohbes and racists, and the separation of these species in this show are undeniably clear. It was the Hideauze who wanted to hi-jack the worm hole and spread across the galaxy. The Hideauze currently are nothing more than barbaric organism who operate out instinct. Just as they killed Pinion brother simply for being in an area of their nest. They're not humans. Just as we don't consider life we may have come from as equals to us. They should be eradicated, period. They altered their genes and appearance in order to survive in space. I think it was stated somewhere two episodes ago that Earth was becoming unstable and thus would not be able to support human life sooner or later and that's why they transformed humans into a slightly different creature. Nevertheless, that doesn't make them completely un-human and thus, it's very rude of you to just label them barbaric when we don't even understand them or know much about them. Secondly, Pinion's brother went into their NEST. A nest is where young are. If you had small children and some guy in a huge machine that was possibly dangerous just barges into your home, I don't think you'll politely wait to ask him any questions. You'd immediately get rid of him in order to protect your young. What they did was out of instinct, not because they're barbaric. |
SpiraiJun 9, 2013 3:49 PM
Defeat said: So many thoughts going through Ledo's head in this episode. Can't wait for next week's episode. Really getting interesting now. I'm not so sure that Kugel is alive. It's true that his chamber is there but it seems like a cargo cult has developed around it. IMHO there are 2 possible scenarios 1. Kugel is alive. He orders Ledo to follow him and Ledo refuses. Ledo then is declared a traitor by Kugel and end boss then becomes Kugel and his chamber PLUS Ledo's chamber. I don't think that that that cannon being pulled up is some accident. 2. Kugel is dead and his chamber is making autonomous decisions. Not quite so sure what would happen here. Would Ledo become commander of both? |
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| Interesting development in this episode. Wonder if there's going to be a second season... |
| 'Good' tl;dr is good for you. It beats games. And it beats anime ridiculed by fan service. If you don't use that little noggin of yours, it might just rot. ;) And I'm not a fan of hippies but even if you asked me to kill say 1000 monkeys, I'd be pretty depressed afterwards. |
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Deleth said: Spirai said: Thank you for explaining what he was saying. I was having a hard time digesting it all since it almost seemed like he was being biased. But either way, I still don't think war is the answer. If they don't battle each other, would one of them actually die out? I mean they have the whole galaxy to live in, I'm pretty sure there's no problem with living space or overpopulation yet. So why not just sign a peace treaty? Are they unable to communicate with the Hideauze? Have they even tried? What's wrong with having two different species of human- one of which has become so diverse that the Alliance (if the Alliance did program it in Chamber, or, depending on what Chamber meant when he said "I'm a crystallization of perfect intelligence and I reached this conclusion on my own", it's possible that the AIs themselves have decided to exterminate the Hideauze) that it's no longer recognized as 'human'? What's wrong with coexistence....Wow, now I sound like Gargantia. Maybe that was the point of this whole anime; coexistence. If the Hideazu would allow the humans to live (something they have been shown to far to not be the case) they would risk the humans actually further technological developing and spreading eventually putting them at risk. If you have two species on the same spot one will usually cease to exist, it's the same on Earth. Currently the European squirrel is being driven to extinction by the American one after the latter has been imported to Europe and got loose. Not by actual conflict but simply by the American squirrel being bigger and more efficient at what it does. Firstly, we do not know if the Hideauze are open to coexistence or not except for perhaps the whalesquid ones on Earth. They did show some signs of aggression and the Gargantian policy of 'leave them alone' was denounced. However, the same cannot be stated about the ones in space. Secondly, those squirrels are not at war. And that is precisely what the Alliance and Hideauze should do. Instead of breaking out into war, just Cold War the case. Adapt, compete to see who does better, refuse to die out, but don't physically start wiping out the other team. |
| I liked Gargantia when it was happy. I like Gargantia right now when it's moody. But I can't say these two sides mesh well. I'm starting to dislike where this is heading. |
I have my own anime blog. It's called Anime Viking. Hope you'll you read it! |
ScipioXII said: Spirai said: ScipioXII said: Fai said: Antanaru said: Spirai said: Far from it. Maybe it would be true if he truly was fighting his own species (which in itself is not really that unusual). The point is, Hideauze are not human. They have human ancestors who decided to turn themselves in this kind of monstrosities but nothing more. He's not fighting fellow humans but different and hostile species. At this point it doesn't really matter if they are man-made or not."Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Fai said: They are not humans for God's sake. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ You DO realize that you are calling the monsters for simply being different? You DO realize just how disgusting such arguments are, right? Considering 99% of homophobes and racists use them in our world. Please refrain form that. Your reasoning is stupid and silly. They are not just "different". They've thrown away their humanity, they've altered their DNA and they are no longer a species called human. This is entirely irrelevant to homopohbes and racists, and the separation of these species in this show are undeniably clear. It was the Hideauze who wanted to hi-jack the worm hole and spread across the galaxy. The Hideauze currently are nothing more than barbaric organism who operate out instinct. Just as they killed Pinion brother simply for being in an area of their nest. They're not humans. Just as we don't consider life we may have come from as equals to us. They should be eradicated, period. They altered their genes and appearance in order to survive in space. I think it was stated somewhere two episodes ago that Earth was becoming unstable and thus would not be able to support human life sooner or later and that's why they transformed humans into a slightly different creature. Nevertheless, that doesn't make them completely un-human and thus, it's very rude of you to just label them barbaric when we don't even understand them or know much about them. Secondly, Pinion's brother went into their NEST. A nest is where young are. If you had small children and some guy in a huge machine that was possibly dangerous just barges into your home, I don't think you'll politely wait to ask him any questions. You'd immedaitley get rid of him in order to protect your young. What they did was out of instinct, not because they're barbaric. They violated the earth laws, it doesn't matter what reasoning they had for the sickening experiments the rest of the world saw them doing. You love to counter yourself in your own statements. You say after becoming an entirely new species composing of basically a whale squid, they should still be considered human, when in fact these things are driven by instinct. Do you think Pin's brother knew he was going into a nest? Do you honestly compare a man wondering into a Lions den unknowingly to someone breaking into a mans house knowingly? You're more stupid than the kid I responded to. It's seems you're more intent on forcing your opinion on others than actually waiting to find out what will happen. I never said the whalesquids were entirely human, but that doesn't mean they're aren't human in some percentage either. And what Earth laws? Half of the people were on the side of the Evolvers. Do you think that half would just go over if it were against some internationally proclaimed Earth laws? What laws are you basing this upon? And finally, well maybe Pinion's brother shouldn't have wandered in the lion's den. I'm pretty sure they KNEW it was whalesquid territory yet he casually waddles in and overstays to the point where even Pinion realizes that his brother needs to get the hell out of there. |
SpiraiJun 11, 2013 10:40 AM
Zulichka said: There seems to be two firm beliefs around here: 1. Hideauze are superior beings, newtype human things that just want to be left alone and regular humans that depend on technology are being controlled by AI which pushes them into committing genocide for fear of becoming obsolete. 2. Alliance is fighting a desperate battle to survive using technology and achievements of human intellect against malicious life form which was created when human beings sacrificed their thought to adapt to life in space. Wonder which one is going to turn out to be true. We have no real evidence that Hideauze are actually aggressive, apart from what Ledo has been taought which we know is full of falsehoods. Facts we know 1. The anime starts with an attack by the Alliance on a Hideauze nest. They defend themselves. 2. Gargantians have a taboo about messing with the Hideauze / whalesquids 3. Gargantians say whalesquids will not attack unless provoked. 4. Whalesquids DO NOT consume the same resources as humans. Why would the Hideauze want to battle humans? There is no resource conflict and they occupy a different ecological niche so there is no territory conflict. The only reason why they would fight is for ideological reasons and the aggressors here seem to be the Alliance. |
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Deleth said: linchpin said: There must have been a considerable amount of time before the CU and the Evolvers (who jumped through the wormhole) met again. This is what I believe: It was the Alliance that followed the Evolvers and were launching a suprise attack on their nest (after having built Avalon), because (citation from HorribleSubs): But you must never forget a merciless evil lurks in the depths of this cruel universe. We must end the threat of the Hideauze, who would hinder our journey onward! We must not allow these lower life forms to hold back humanity's race to the future! (...) Ceasing REM Hypnosis Education" This goes against anything we've seen and been told so far, stop making up stuff. In the very first episode we've seen parts of Avalon destroyed and devastated and we're told the conflict is raging on for quite some time already. There doesn't need to be a long time between they met again, as they used the very same portal it is unlikely they ended up far away from one another. Apparently, I disagree. The CU would not be stranded on Earth. They've been building a fleet of starships. I think most people believe that the Evolvers succeeded in hijacking the wormhole, jumping and destroying it behind them. The CU then either rebuilt it (well, they couldn't suddenly forget they had the technology, right)? Or they took the long route and went into space on their spaceships. "Apparently, I disagree.", no really? If you wouldn't it would mean you had some kind of common sense instead of load of fanwank that has no basis in the actual story. "I think most people believe..." so, to give your opinion more credbility you're citing MOST people would agree with you, when there is really no proof for that especially on something that makes no sense. Let's break down the entire thing: -Gal Alliance and Hideazu have been at war for quite some time. -ConUnion (later Gal Alliance) undertook the massive effort of building the first warpgate, a big one at that with a very far reach, it's unlikely they failed passing through it or could've easily build a second one, then there wouldn't have been any need for the Hideazu to hijack it. -Both sides ended up in close proximity, do you really think that 6500 years at the highest possible speed wouldn't be very, very, very far? Hitting the exact same spot twice is very unlikely especially if they'd have to build a new gate. -As pointed out by chamber, going there the normal way isn't viable. It's taking to damned long. The old ships several hundred or thousands of years ago would've been indefinitely slower and taken even longer. Spirai said: Firstly, we do not know if the Hideauze are open to coexistence or not except for perhaps the whalesquid ones on Earth. They did show some signs of aggression and the Gargantian policy of 'leave them alone' was denounced. However, the same cannot be stated about the ones in space. Secondly, those squirrels are not at war. And that is precisely what the Alliance and Hideauze should do. Instead of breaking out into war, just Cold War the case. Adapt, compete to see who does better, refuse to die out, but don't physically start wiping out the other team. What? We know for certain that all Hideazu so far have attacked humans at some point. The ones in space are in fact the bigger threat to humanity and they couldn't risk leaving humanity alone either IF they even retain enough intelligence to make these decisions at this point. Secondly, the European squirrel is going exting. It will vanish in a few years driven to extinction by the American one. That's not co-existance, that's not "doing the better thing", it's merely a slow and painful death for the European squirrel, in fact going to way (if they were intelligent enough and would have the means to) would be the only way for them to survive seeing as how they still have far superior numbers. As it's now, the European squirrel will die out, while the American one will add another continent (at least one, if it doesn't expand to Asia afterwards) to it's habitats. But see, we don't know if the Hideauze of space continued fighting the war from the side of Evolvers or if they stopped in between and/or if they're open to a peace treaty. We don't really know a lot. Or, maybe I'm the only one missing out on this loads of information... As for the squirrels analogy, I guess I can see why they'd try to wage war, but still, there has to be a better solution. Didn't the Evolvers try to go off into space by themselves? Wouldn't that create a separation of habitats and thus get rid of the risk of extinction for both? And speaking of extinction, doesn't the Alliance just clone its people anyways? |
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