Who Exactly are the Good Guys

Apr 29, 2013 9:25 AM

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Oct 2012

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I have some speculation about the Alliance based on what we learned in episode 4, and I wanted to create a thread to share both these thoughts as well as to encourage people to add to the speculation. The goal here is not to be right or wrong, but to take what we have seen so far and run wild, giving free rein to our imaginations. The only rule is that you have to base it on the show, but outside of that lets have a little fun.

From the first five minutes something about this show reminded me of a manga published in the United States back in the 80's (with a foreword by Harlan Ellison) called Grey. The concept of this show was that humans were in a state of constant warfare on a post-apocalyptic, with the goal being able to be gain enough points to be able to immigrate to this "perfect" city of no wants or needs. Needless to say when the hero finally reached the city, there were no humans there. Just a computer (called Mother) who thought that humans had a urge to commit suicide and had structured the world to provide for this need.

The Alliance gives me the same feel. First they had the promise of a city after people fought for x number of years, and that we know that they brainwash the fighters constantly. In this episode we also learned that they purge people, it was implied they only did this to the "weak", but I have a strong feeling that it doesn't stop there (or even start there, just because someone is sick doesn't mean with technology that they are useless), they also purge those who don't support the Alliance, and probably those who see through the brainwashing or show independent thought. I have a feeling that Ledo's brother was one of these "deviants" who was purged.

In the first episode, Ledo made a reference comparing those humans who did not join the Alliance as being worthy of being killed. Something I am sure that the conditioning reinforces. This shows that the Alliance is not an benevolent society, but a peculiar fascist state. The "glory of humanity" speech at the beginning is highly suggestive that this is indeed how the state is organized.

Now the interesting thing is that IF the Aliens were hostile, and humanity was on the verge of extinction, then the Alliance, even if they are as bad as my speculation suggests, would have a moral foundation for their actions. However I suspect this is not the actual case. That this "war" is very similar to the Orwellian expression "we were always at war with Eurasia" . The aliens, far from being a threat, is actually a justification for the Alliance to manipulate and control their subjects. One could also then speculate that the goal of the first battle wasn't too win, but to winnow out some more veterans who were due to retire to the "city" (by the way was its name Arcadia or Avalon, can't check right now). Seemed mighty convenient that the aliens had just enough ability to recover in time to defeat the expedition.

Anyway that is my speculation for the day. Probably wrong, but wanted to throw it out and see if anyone wants to chat about such things.

Apr 29, 2013 10:31 AM

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564528

that was a fine read and really does make one think :)

Apr 29, 2013 11:16 AM

Antanaru

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Aug 2008

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Interesting view but you need to assume that all that talk about 'healing' series is a marketing gimmick. I need to make one objection though. You can't call Alliance 'a peculiar fascist state'. We don't know anything about its ideology. It might (and probably is if your speculations are right) as well be closer to communism/nazism. More appropriate would be to call it authoritarian or totalitarian state.

Ii tenki desu ne...

Apr 29, 2013 11:51 AM

Takuan_Soho

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Oct 2012

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Antanaru said:
Interesting view but you need to assume that all that talk about 'healing' series is a marketing gimmick. I need to make one objection though. You can't call Alliance 'a peculiar fascist state'. We don't know anything about its ideology. It might (and probably is if your speculations are right) as well be closer to communism/nazism. More appropriate would be to call it authoritarian or totalitarian state.

Fascism/Communism/Nazism are all similar in many regards, but there are some differences that can make calling on or another more accurate than not.

I used fascist because of the focus on the military, the jingoistic speech at the beginning, the idea of "human destiny", the idea that those who performed military service get extra benefits. These are all more fascist than communist sentiments.

I didn't want to use Nazism (which is an offshoot of fascism, fascism is an offshoot of communism) because of the negative association most people would immediately have, but there are somethings we know (the elimination of the weak) that make Nazism a better description for the Alliance.

As for the "healing", we can still have it. As Ledo pointed out, they don't need "Alliance Utopia" if they have a planet they can settle on. Plus this episode you had the whole discussion about how the fleet is more an organic entity than a "structured" state. One of the big problems with the whole F/C/N mode of government is that it reduces humans to mere cogs in a machine. The impact the flute had on Ledo was more than just a memory of his brother, it was also probably the first sensual enjoyment he has probably ever had in his life.

This interpretation would give Bellows talk both last episode and this more meaning. She represents a human, Ledo a machine. Her chastisement about taking life wasn't that he did it, but rather that he felt nothing in doing it. She made a similar point about his being unable to deal without there being an external structure to tell him what to do.

Apr 30, 2013 10:31 AM

Snschl

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Apr 2013

Takuan_Soho said:

Fascism/Communism/Nazism are all similar in many regards, but there are some differences that can make calling on or another more accurate than not.

I used fascist because of the focus on the military, the jingoistic speech at the beginning, the idea of "human destiny", the idea that those who performed military service get extra benefits. These are all more fascist than communist sentiments.

I didn't want to use Nazism (which is an offshoot of fascism, fascism is an offshoot of communism) because of the negative association most people would immediately have, but there are somethings we know (the elimination of the weak) that make Nazism a better description for the Alliance.

As for the "healing", we can still have it. As Ledo pointed out, they don't need "Alliance Utopia" if they have a planet they can settle on. Plus this episode you had the whole discussion about how the fleet is more an organic entity than a "structured" state. One of the big problems with the whole F/C/N mode of government is that it reduces humans to mere cogs in a machine. The impact the flute had on Ledo was more than just a memory of his brother, it was also probably the first sensual enjoyment he has probably ever had in his life.

This interpretation would give Bellows talk both last episode and this more meaning. She represents a human, Ledo a machine. Her chastisement about taking life wasn't that he did it, but rather that he felt nothing in doing it. She made a similar point about his being unable to deal without there being an external structure to tell him what to do.

That's false equivalence; most of what you describe is just totalitarianism, fascism being its main variant in the 20th century. The modern spin was that you had to venerate the state rather than follow your feudal lord, and the state had modern weapons, armies and, most importantly, media at its disposal. However, the general idea still hinged on the same despotism shared by most monarchies and empires throughout the Earth's history. Italy's fascism was more than just totalitarian, it also followed an economic doctrine, corporatism, which divided society into 'corpora' (like government-run companies - nothing like either capitalism or communism, and actually quite antithetical to both).

Nazism was mainstream fascism on (racist) steroids and with a uniquely German brand of forced cultural/ideological revolution; it's not comparable to much else. Nazis certainly don't hold monopoly on wanting to exterminate the disabled, that was practised by (way too) many other cultures throughout history.

It's not a big stretch to call the Galactic Alliance 'fascist'; that speech in the intro was militarist, ethnocentric, and all-around textbook-fascist. The Alliance certainly isn't Nazi, though it might not extend personhood (hence the casual murder of the sick ones) to clones/vat-grown soldiers until they earn their citizenship through military service.

However, whether the Alliance is communist, we have NO way of telling. If it has privately-owned property and enterprises, it's not. If property is shared, it need not be owned by the state, it can be anarcho-syndicalist. If it's all owned by the state, it could also be corporatist. All of these are purely economic doctrines, they don't have to come with a totalitarian regime. For all we know, the Alliance is a democracy (but I'd bet only the 400 million Avalon citizens have actual voting rights). And its very name, 'the Galactic Alliance', suggests that it might be a federal state of some sort.

Apr 30, 2013 1:33 PM

Takuan_Soho

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Snschl said:
That's false equivalence; most of what you describe is just totalitarianism, fascism being its main variant in the 20th century.

Not really. Totalitarianism is like ice cream, it comes in many flavors. While all ice cream has certain common characteristics, each has something unique to distinguish itself from others. While fascism was certainly a popular flavor last century, lets call it chocolate, I wonder how you can't call Communism (which is equally totalitarian - lets assign it to strawberry) the most popular. Far more countries and far more people have and still do exist in communist states than fascist states.

Fascism was Mussolini's attempt to improve communism based on his experience of WWI. Instead of promoting an international workers movement, Mussolini wanted a national workers movement; instead of seizing the property, Mussolini had the idea of co-opting owners and managers by allowing private property to exist, as long as it was held for the good of the state. The unifying principle of fascism was the military, just as the country was able to achieve great things being unified in WWI, Mussolini proposed maintaining the same unification during "peace" time.

Nazism was Hitler's attempt to improve fascism, however instead of "nation", he promoted the race to center stage, combining it with the progressive movement's belief in eugenics. While you are right that many countries did support sterilization of "unfit" people (including the US up until the early 1970's), Nazi Germany was a bit unique in their actually executing anyone deemed "unfit" (at least in modern times, ancient Sparta practiced it). Fascism for instance had no rational to do this, nor did they do it (indeed Fascism wasn't even particularly racist or anti-Semitic as long as everyone put the Nation first).

Snschl said:
It's not a big stretch to call the Galactic Alliance 'fascist'; that speech in the intro was militarist, ethnocentric, and all-around textbook-fascist.

Agreed, which is why I used fascist in the first post.

Snschl said:
The Alliance certainly isn't Nazi, though it might not extend personhood (hence the casual murder of the sick ones) to clones/vat-grown soldiers until they earn their citizenship through military service.

I would agree that we don't have the information to consider them "nazis" yet, but I think you are being a bit too hasty with your "certainty". Elimination of the weak aside, there were a couple of other items from the first episode that could be used to support this contention. Go back and think about Ledo's opinion on "non-alliance" humans. Conclusive? No. Suggestive? Yes.

Snschl said:
However, whether the Alliance is communist, we have NO way of telling. If it has privately-owned property and enterprises, it's not. If property is shared, it need not be owned by the state, it can be anarcho-syndicalist. If it's all owned by the state, it could also be corporatist. All of these are purely economic doctrines, they don't have to come with a totalitarian regime.

I don't think the Alliance is communist. First the rhetoric doesn't match communist rhetoric. Second, the description of society doesn't match communist society (no soviets, no worker class), but this total war footing does match Fascism very well. As for the Alliance's economic structure, I personally do not care. These are political ideas, not economic ideas. Far too many people confuse the two. Communist China is still Communist even though they have adapted capitalism to a great degree.

Snschl said:
For all we know, the Alliance is a democracy (but I'd bet only the 400 million Avalon citizens have actual voting rights). And its very name, 'the Galactic Alliance', suggests that it might be a federal state of some sort.

Perhaps, but even if it is a democracy, this doesn't mean that it can't be totalitarian (dictatorship of the masses) or fascist. And "alliance" means little. It is implied that you either join this "alliance" or else (Athens was big on this).

Apr 30, 2013 2:35 PM

Snschl

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Apr 2013

Takuan_Soho said:
As for the Alliance's economic structure, I personally do not care. These are political ideas, not economic ideas. Far too many people confuse the two.

You're the one that keeps conflating communism with single-party states. Communist China is still "communist" because it's ruled by the Communist Party, which is left-leaning, adverse to privatization and in support of wealth distribution, not because it employs "rhetoric" -- authoritarian or single-party states which coerce the populace or employ propaganda have come from all over the political spectrum, from the hard-right fascist WW2 states, to anti-communist nationalist (Zaire under Mobutu), and religious conservative (Saudi Arabia, Taliban Afghanistan).

The Alliance might be communist if companies were run by unions or workers' councils instead of private owners or boards representing their interests, whether a state gives the workers power, or they self-organize (as it often was; many socialist states had decentralized local self-governance with quite a bit of sovereignty). That doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how the entire Alliance is ruled on the top; it may be a hereditary monarchy, or a military dictatorship, or ruled by random demarchist ballot for all we know.

Apr 30, 2013 3:43 PM

Takuan_Soho

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Snschl said:
You're the one that keeps conflating communism with single-party states.

Where?

Snschl said:
Communist China is still "communist" because it's ruled by the Communist Party, which is left-leaning, adverse to privatization and in support of wealth distribution, not because it employs "rhetoric"

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then chances are it IS a duck. As I pointed out it just isn't that the Alliance is using fascist rhetoric, but that they also seemed to be structured like a fascist state. Either one alone would mean little, but the combination is suggestive.

Snschl said:
-- authoritarian or single-party states which coerce the populace or employ propaganda have come from all over the political spectrum, from the hard-right fascist WW2 states, to anti-communist nationalist (Zaire under Mobutu), and religious conservative (Saudi Arabia, Taliban Afghanistan).

Never claimed they didn't.

Snschl said:
The Alliance might be communist if companies were run by unions or workers' councils instead of private owners or boards representing their interests, whether a state gives the workers power, or they self-organize (as it often was; many socialist states had decentralized local self-governance with quite a bit of sovereignty).

Sure they "could" be, but we don't have any evidence from the show to support this conclusion. What we do have more supports their being fascist than communist, though with additional information perhaps the reverse will become true.

Snschl said:
That doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how the entire Alliance is ruled on the top; it may be a hereditary monarchy, or a military dictatorship, or ruled by random demarchist ballot for all we know.

Never said it did either. In fact I used the word "speculate" several times in my post, showing that I was making a guess. An educated guess, a guess based on what the animation has show us, but still a guess.

Though, to be fair to myself, at least I am using information from the show in my speculations, whereas your speculations seem to be based more upon heated air.

May 1, 2013 8:58 AM

uniquelyme91

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Mar 2009

Back to the main topic...

I think the main idea of this show is that Ledo will realise that the alliance can't come back to Earth. For, not only will they, either, enforce their beliefs onto the people living on Earth, or, they will kill them all because they are not from the alliance, thus ending the generally carefree and peaceful lifestyle of those on Earth.

So in this case the alliance are the bad guys.

We can't really guess if they were indeed using the aliens as an excuse to control the populous or even that battle to get rid of some of the fighters who could retire soon. Maybe at first they really were just searching for a planet to live on when they were attacked and they had to implement this strict who lives/who dies community to limit the population and maximize the chances of victory.
It seems like ideas could have gotten out of hand like "only our strongest can fight" morphed into "Only the strongest can live" and the idea "to suppress emotions to help them fight" changed to "eliminate familial ties to maximize alliance obedience/loyalty" even "obedience to authority will maximize military efficiency and effectiveness" changed into "obedience to the alliance will bring structure and control over the population."

Anyway the point is that Ledo is going to realise if he wants his new friends to continue their peaceful lifestyle and maybe even keep them alive he can't return to the alliance and he can't let the alliance know that earth is habitable again.

It will be interesting to see how he reaches this conclusion and how he deals with Chamber. Will he be able to convince Chamber to turn off the distress signal or will they have to turn Chamber off. Or will the alliance show up anyway?

I'm excited to see how all this will enfold.

Cat Love

May 2, 2013 4:00 AM

#10

Snschl

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Apr 2013

Takuan_Soho said:
snip

Yeah, sorry, I've derailed the discussion a bit. I just dislike when "communist" is used to describe authoritarian societies, since it assumes the notions of classless society, communist economy and worker-owned production that often aren't true for the society in question.

The Alliance has clearly been depicted too seem alienating and reminiscent of 1984 to the viewers. Born in tubes, killed if weak, no family, trained for warfare since childhood -- it's a rotten place to live, at first glance. However, this is a culture-clash anime, so we may yet see some justification for why the Alliance is the way it is.

I find it a bit suspicious that Chamber described the Hideauze with just, "Enemy. Coexistence is impossible." It sounds like a propaganda phrase, not an encyclopaedic entry like his other explanations. Uniquelyme91 is probably right in thinking they're going to have to reprogram/kill Chamber if they want to keep the Alliance away, since he's probably programmed to serve the Alliance's interest before the pilot's. Maybe Chamber will eventually become the series' Big Bad.

Also, it's worth noting that he doesn't actually seem all that sapient/volitional. There's a reason they put pilots inside the mechs, and it isn't to actually control them (you'll notice that much of what Ledo does is, "Target everything, annihilate," and Chamber does the rest almost automatically); maybe the AIs can't make reasoned choices to the degree humans can, so pilots act like overseers and let the AI's superhuman response times deal with the actual fighting.

If this is the case, Chamber might not be reasoned with or persuaded. He's just a machine, though he has enough adaptable programming to make him appear sapient.

EDIT: Actually, Chamber turning against Ledo would also solve the series' problem with the protagonist having an invincible weapon of mass destruction at his disposal at all times.

SnschlMay 2, 2013 4:07 AM

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