Suisei no Gargantia Episode 2 Discussion

Kagurawest said:
Yes I use the word evil from my understanding. But I assume that the word evil ,even it is a highly subjective matter, that this understanding is hopefully shared among the forum user ( I do not really care what the right and wrong standard is by those space people except for entertainment issues).

Kagurawest said:
Your quote "thus create more issues than it resolves" just proves my accusation of him being an idiot right. I've called him in my first post an complete idiot because when I saw what he did was like "WTF is he doing?." I've expected more of a peacful and smart solution from a future man (like breaking the fingers of the pirate leader one by one; cruel and effective by imposing fear to them but wouldnt't be such a tragedy like killing humans who just happens to be on the pirate side)

symbv said:
That's all he has been trained to do. And in the face of the combat they are seeing, it is sensible. So there is no idiocy there. It only looks problematic when he applies the logic in this situation which results in vast overkill. And he did it because he did not know better. As an earlier post said, this only made him ignorant but far from an idiot.

symbv said:
[why his action is totally sensible to him even though it may look jarring and disturbing to those in Gargantia.

symbv said:
But it seems that most in this forum knows better than simply applying our current standard to a character living in an entirely different age and circumstances.

As I said, this is NOT idiotic. To call him idiotic means you fail to understand where he comes from and why his action is totally sensible to him even though it may look jarring to you and disturbing to those in Gargantia. And your expectation about a more "peaceful and smart solution" takes the assumption that future people must always be better at handling unknown situation regardless of their upbringing and the life they lived. You talk as if he has a very good way to capture the pirates alive and then break their fingers, even though all the weapons he has is long range weapon like laser gun and a super-powerful robot. He has a surefire way to kill all the enemies without harming any of his allies (by selective vaporization) why not do it in this safe and clean way?

simplewhimsy said:
To me, real depth would be acknowledging that he has serious issues, and those issues are going to result in pain. He won't be able to form healthy relationships. He's very likely quite damaged in regards to personal relationships. If they take shortcuts and everything is sunshine and rainbows in the space of a few weeks (time wise within the anime itself) by the end of this anime I will be very disappointed. To me, that's no real character depth and disappointing considering the writer.

symbv said:
I do not agree that real depth necessitate showing he has serious issues. What I see from Urobuchi's work is how he does not think that things will always be lopsidedly bad, so his "serious issues" is necessary in the world he comes from, but once he comes out of it, he sees that his old way is not the only way of life. That does not necessarily mean that his old way is problematic just because now in an entirely different environment he is not able to form healthy relationship. So in this case, what he needs to do is to learn and adapt. Of course this can also involve pain, but I think the story can still be told as a tale of positive development for the character in general, and still be convincing, even without big dose of PTSD etc.

Kagurawest said:
But I called him an idiot because he did idiotic things in my eyes. It's arrogant from me who lives in a rather peaceful surrounding I know, and I do know that he is highly brainwashed. But I called him nevertheless an idiot like anyone else who think that violence and death without thinking first (like: If i kill those pirates I secure the support of the ship crew; would be rather a stupid expectation from him but better than to go berserk because a kid told me to) is an answer to "solve things" regardless of his background.

simplewhimsy said:
Ehh, I'm looking at it as an american who has known several men who came back from Iraq seriously messed up. To me, war is a terrible, awful thing that does a lot more to people than give them a horrible/sympathetic past. Which is why I want to see the writing in this anime reflect that -- is it necessary to a good story? No. Science fiction and fantasy are renowned for pretending that death doesn't mean anything to the one doing the killing. Neither do you need it to have a fulfilling story. I've seen it happen enough to *want* more depth than that, more than just a hand-waving 'this person is okay because it suits the story'.

simplewhimsy said:


Also it is very likely the only thing he knows how to do is strategize for battles and kill.

-> he doesn't know how to interrogate
-> he doesn't know how to take prisoners
-> he very probably doesn't know how to value life.

He understands survival, and whatever rules of engagement his society came up with (I doubt there's very many, and they likely only apply to the safety of his side).

Noooow, if you (kagurawest) want to blame someone, blame the society he came from who are very likely engaging in breeding soldiers. He is only the product. He doesn't know or understand anything else, because that is all he has ever known.

simplewhimsy said:
Ehh, I'm looking at it as an american who has known several men who came back from Iraq seriously messed up. To me, war is a terrible, awful thing that does a lot more to people than give them a horrible/sympathetic past. Which is why I want to see the writing in this anime reflect that -- is it necessary to a good story? No. Science fiction and fantasy are renowned for pretending that death doesn't mean anything to the one doing the killing. Neither do you need it to have a fulfilling story. I've seen it happen enough to *want* more depth than that, more than just a hand-waving 'this person is okay because it suits the story'.

kihira said:
whoa whoa guys. if you have time to write all these watch yuru yuri once more. watch it 3 times. akari is the only true path to salvation.

kihira said:
whoa whoa guys. if you have time to write all these watch yuru yuri once more. watch it 3 times. akari is the only true path to salvation.

Kagurawest said:
But I acknoledge him as a sentient being capable of thought and understanding even he couldn't reach that level because of his past. I do not see him as an artificial being like that robot who do as he is programmed. But Red in fact has that ability and has potential to do other things than what he is trained to do. Compared to this possibility this massacre is stupid=idiotic. It is stupid because stupidity is relative to him and to us viewers and me. Calling this act not as idiotic would render the definition "idiot" useless and therefore meaningless. Therefore I have to use a standard to use such a word and that standard is set by his potential and what I have learned in Real life.

symbv said:
I guess personal background will always play a role in what story you want to see and how it is to be told. Personally I would rather let movies like Hurt Locker to deal with the trauma of war. What I sense in this anime is that the theme may be more about a total outsider popping up in a different world where all he learned and knew do not really come in useful or considered necessarily helpful here. And so he has to learn all the basic skills from the beginning, and it starts from learning to care and learning to think outside a soldier mentality. And telling this story well can still add real depth to the character. Of course I also expect he will have to deal with some of his inner demon but perhaps it may manifest more as his being torn between concerns of his war buddies still fighting the terrifying war against aliens and living a peaceful life building relationship of friendship and love on Earth.

meneliksempai said:



Americans have this view of war because of all the negative views from the Media about Iraq and A-stan, other societies have other views of War and Soldiers has an honorable sacrifice and a Warrior.

Places like Israel, India, and Pakistan have more of this Warrior mentality, not because they ignore death but because they put the lives of their own people at a higher value than that of their enemies. It is not just an Anime or Sci-fi thing.

simplewhimsy said:
Yeah, I agree that that seems to be the direction it's going in. I also agree that it can still add depth, but I guess my thought is I want to see realism. Certainly anime isn't usually the venue for that, but. . .I still want to see it. I want more of a struggle than what I think they're going to give.

simplewhimsy said:
My objection is that I feel they're cutting out depth by making him this child soldier and then (if it goes in that direction) letting him be all better in a manner of weeks. Why have him in the army for his entire life? Why not just 5 or 6 years and reintroduce him back into society rather than his whole life?

simplewhimsy said:
(of course, watch, there's going to be some kind of sci fi techno-magic that will have prevented their soldiers from having psychological trauma, instead just giving them childishly simplistic minds in regards to societal integration. . .because SCIENCE!)

simplewhimsy said:


The USA does the same thing, look at how much media attention has been put towards dehumanizing "terrorists".

My point is though that killing other people does have an affect. I'm not saying it automatically makes people monsters (otherwise humanity's history would have ended up differently), but -- you know, Spartans and Athenians. That sort of thing. Argh. I don't want to devolve this into a real world thing (did I already? I am sorry :( ), so all I'll say is that I prefer Kameron Hurley's take on war and death and how that affects culture/society built around it over the thought that it has no affect on the human mind.

Kagurawest said:

Lol sorry for misunderstanding but I'm not arguing with forum users since it is red I accuse of being stupid. But I have to admit that I have to defend my accusation or I fear to read a comment that "massacring pirates is so cooool ;) or stuff like that. Well, what I want is to put on the forum some mature thoughts about this episode by deliberately pushing an discussion

symbv said:
My objection is that I feel they're cutting out depth by making him this child soldier and then (if it goes in that direction) letting him be all better in a manner of weeks. Why have him in the army for his entire life? Why not just 5 or 6 years and reintroduce him back into society rather than his whole life?

simplewhimsy said:


The USA does the same thing, look at how much media attention has been put towards dehumanizing "terrorists".

My point is though that killing other people does have an affect. I'm not saying it automatically makes people monsters (otherwise humanity's history would have ended up differently), but -- you know, Spartans and Athenians. That sort of thing. Argh. I don't want to devolve this into a real world thing (did I already? I am sorry :( ), so all I'll say is that I prefer Kameron Hurley's take on war and death and how that affects culture/society built around it over the thought that it has no affect on the human mind.

alduren said:
Any feedback on the v1.5 subs?

About the green text on Chamber, good or bad?
Font size good, etc?

Like you guys know by now it's my first time trying to sub, I would appreciate feedback for next time I sub something (also, tell me if you know a show /episode that need's subs atm).

Ajunky said:


LOL at the morality discussion going on here. Amy requested his help against her enemies and he treated as he would his, he doesn't know the details of their conflict.

simplewhimsy said:
@symbv
. . .that's a really good point. I would enjoy that very much. :3
Also a very good point about focusing on one thing to make those 12 episodes shine, rather than too much and ending up with too little. That would certainly be the worst thing that could happen, trying to do too much. In any case I don't doubt I'll enjoy it, because I already am enjoying it.

simplewhimsy said:
@meneliksempai
I don't suppose there's a pm feature on this site? I'd love to really discuss that with you, but I think err, this might not be the best spot to do so. (so much I want to say but this *is* episode discussion D: )

symbv said:
Great to hear that. It has been great talking to you :-)

Actually there is a PM function. Go to "Profiles" and from the pull-down menu select "Messages" and it will bring you to the PM page.

AbovePsycho said:
YES! I found episode 2 better than the first episode. Loved the communication between amy and red, and the expression on those peoples faces after red annihilated the pirates. Priceless.

symbv said:
This is quite an absurd claim to make. Why he is not doing the right thing for his country or as a soldier or for humanity? It seems that you are using the standard of the present world and its circumstances to judge how Ledo should act as a soldier. And I am not even sure where the "humanity" part comes from. As for country, well, all he knows is everything is under the Federation except for a few space nomads, and then there is the enemy. At least he is trying to adapt to the situation where what he sees does not fit into that long-held understanding he has held.

xfire011 said:
Why are they like that at the end?
Anyway, this Earth doesn't even have the tech. we have now. A cool episode.
Can't find any 720p version, :(

xfire011 said:
Why are they like that at the end?
Anyway, this Earth doesn't even have the tech. we have now. A cool episode.
Can't find any 720p version, :(

AnimageNeby said:


This.

It's pretty clear, I thought. He comes from a military background, been probably in the army since his birth, and his society is one of...well...how should I put it? In the first episode, I rather got the feeling they were a bit...arrogant? With the "all hail to the glorious human (well, Alliance) race" and needing to wipe out the flower-squid race for the glorious goal of human supremacy and all that... I dunno. Sure, it might be that it's truly and only a matter of survival, but I got the feeling Red's culture/civilisation is pretty much a militaristic- imperialistic one too. They clearly value life on different terms than us, and more like a class-society. (Otherwise, they wouldn't have focussed on the 'eligible to live/procreate' because he was worthy and shown to be a superior example of the human species.)

We got too few info about his society to be sure, but I don't think it's all that utopian, at least not in the sense of 'equal for all'. And they are very strict and relaying on 'rules'. As someone else here said; the first thing he said when his commanding officer said he was going to sacrifice himself to help the others (and Red) escape, was: "That's against the rules'. That is very poignant and a clear indication of how that society is regulated: very hierarchical. No 'thank you" or "Don't do it" or whatever, just that it goes against regulations. Hardly anyone in our society would have such a reaction. Also hinted throughout the episodes, is that their culture/society is very pragmatical on a rational basis; emotions are subdued. We see that in his lack of fear, his strange look at the antics of Amy when she was dancing of excitement (great scene, that ;-)), his analytical prowess in the context of give-and take and balancing the pro's and con's that he and his AI portrays, etc.

In regard to the killing: as some have said; this is fully normal for him. It makes perfect sense and is quite logical, seen from his viewpoint. His perception of the world is more like this:

1) "we", his group, the Alliance
2) Other humans outside the Alliance
3) enemies

It's a very 'we versus them' worldview, but that is to be expected, as, in more than one regard, it IS a we versus them, to survive. And an army always tries to portray everything in black and white anyway (them being white, and the opponents black).

The first is obviously ranked the highest; it's his life, after all. He's a soldier, in an army, and that army are his friends/college's, nakama and fellow-soldiers and the Avalon society as a whole.

The second...one could say it doesn't matter to him, but this is not entirely true. We can see that, for instance, with his consideration of not damaging the bulkhead, because he thought it could be the void / empty space outside, and the people inside would all suffocate. So he had *some* concern for them, even though he already suspected they were not of the Alliance, but nomads.

This concern points to the fact that, while not as important as members of the Alliance, there is still put *some* worth to other members of the human race.

Of course, this importance is not that great, and it's not something that will be allowed to come in his way (at least, at this point) towards his goal. which is why he has little trouble killing of the pirates. Obviously he knew they were human, but they weren't Alliance. In fact, they were indicated as *the enemy*, EVEN by the non-Alliance people around him, with whom he desired a working-relation so he had a fall-back plan if he had to wait for the Alliance to pick him up. It was a pragmatic and rational decision, thus, for his own benefit.

Now, to get there, he had to get rid of the enemy: those pirates. Once they were designated and catalogued as the enemy, he knew/had only one way to deal with them, and that was how he has learned to deal with enemies his whole life: as completely, thoroughly and ruthlessly as possible.

In fact, while the crew is shocked by the immensity of what he has done (and how he did it, with such casual ease), and probably treat him with fear or/and disgust, *he* probably now thinks he has done a good job, efficiently and it being a complete success. In his mindview (and that of the society to which he belongs), defeating the enemy in that way would earn him appraisal. It will be interesting to see how this pans out in the next episode, since obviously, the worldviews of both societies collide drastically on this point. For him, it's a job well done, for the crew it's complete overkill. The crew - if they had the power - would probably have threatened, maybe sunk a few ships as a warning, and compelled the pirates into surrender or retreat. They more or less have the mindset of us, today, in r/l. Red, however, has no such mental framework. These thoughts are alien to him, in fact, since he has always learned and experienced that one must utterly destroy the enemy. That's why he doesn't blink an eye, when he says 'annihilate' and then completely wipes out the pirates.