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Sep 26, 2011 9:33 AM
#1

Offline
Mar 2010
55510
THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
----------------------------------------
Trunks finally made their future present a good place again.....

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Jun 5, 2017 5:42 AM
#2
🥊 CHAMPION 🥊

Offline
Apr 2016
21745
second and last chapter of Tunks in the future, and this time killed Cell!!!!
The future is in peace too!!!!
Jun 21, 2020 4:50 PM
#3

Offline
Aug 2012
3305
And thus ends the Future Trunks stuff. There was a whole discussion I've seen and took part of about how this should've been the end of the Dragon Ball series, ending with the passing of the torch and I can see that. Outside of the ending of the 23rd World Tournament, none of other Saga end feels more like a finale than the Cell stuff here, and I include the actual ending we got in there. Still, I have to admit, the series ending on Trunks' story would've felt a bit odd, and I definitely think it's a resolution we needed to see, otherwise it would've felt incomplete.

As a whole, I so far do think I stick with my original opinion that as a whole, this is the strongest segment in the franchise though I will note, the beginning of the Namek when it was a three-way struggle between team Gohan & Krillin, Vegeta, and Frieza's goons is far and away my favourite stretch of the manga. And in truth, I don't know that the manga version of this holds up as well compared to the anime. Maybe it's because I've experienced this story countless time through incessantly watching reruns on Toonami as a kid and in most of the video games, but there was definitely a sense of things moving by perhaps too quickly. Several character beats (like 16's speech to Gohan) or intense moments didn't carry the dramatic weight they did. But I did watch the anime as a kid, so that may have something to do it with. I definitely enjoyed it but I'd be lying if I said I was fully engaged like I like to be.

The stories plot can also be pretty loosey-goosey with all the main threat changes coming seemingly out of nowhere (to be fair, Toriyama does establish the presence of other threats before actually introducing them) so I can see that being an issue, but I do like the sense of mystery that usually accompanied them, at least with Cell's initial introduction having a dash of horror.

But mostly I love this part because I feel this is the segment of Dragon Ball where it's attention is more on the full cast than just Goku. I love Vegeta's character arc in Namek, it's probably the strongest character work but the Future Trunks is more widespread here. Vegeta still has his own character trajectory with his relationship with Future Trunks, Krillin has his own side-story with 18, Piccolo's decision to fuse with Kami is treated with more weight and gives him some direction, Gohan long since established rage powers comes to a climax here as well. Androids 16-18 are allowed to have some more fun personalities and dynamic due to being antagonists that aren't necessarily evil. And it's not much for actual character insight, but I still love that Tien manages to be relevant in a random moment against Cell.

I also like the continuous thread of the folly of arrogance, it's pretty much sown into every character here. From Dr. Gero deciding they had enough data before they went to Namek to Gohan not killing Cell to make him suffer more. It's no coincidence that almost every failure in this arc is due to arrogance. And I enjoy the father/son dynamic's explored here through with Goku & Gohan and Vegeta & Trunks, often in parallel to each-other. Like how Trunks surpassed Vegeta in power but choose to conceal this in order to not damage Vegeta's pride, as opposed to how Gohan had no idea he surpassed Goku but Goku did and concealed it because of his belief in Gohan's strength. This carries over with Trunks and Goku's death and Vegeta and Gohan's hand in Cell's defeat in the end. It was pretty interesting to have this relationship dynamics around too though the explorations are pretty surface.
Oct 16, 2021 1:48 AM
#4
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Sep 2020
2292
Trash arc overall ,but satisfying ending
5/5
Dec 15, 2021 3:21 PM
#5

Offline
Dec 2007
7904
the way this arc ends definitely showing toriyama's feeling for the series. when frieza's arc ended it didn't even took less than a chapter and the future trunks arc started at that moment.

cell saga probably holds the most unprepared plot of toriyama, since it started with the androids, going through several twists trunks had in store, another androids, the grey feeling of 17 and 18 - they weren't evil bad not good. that led to the horror theme following imperfect cell's appearance there led to great story full of mystery, but got back in good terms to action. but from cell's announcement of "cell's game" the story went deep downhill 'till goku vs cell fight. hercule was very funny character, but his true meaning only came later.

so yeah, this saga wasn't that great, it held it's true moments, had it's weakness and all. comparing it to namek and frieza arc is pointless i think - while frieza was indeed great character, cell was inferior but superior in some point or another. the idea to transform cell with another meaning rather than power up was really good. but at the evilness cell felt really pity compare to frieza who had true "emperor" feeling to him. it led to frieza's arrogant to be really pain, but led to great ending moments. compare to that the father and son theme to the end of cell doesn't feel that great. what was also missed to me is the sayan logic - in the namek and frieza arc there was clear destination of the super sayan legend, but the whole super sayan 2 felt less backgrounded. i understand the need of power up, but unlike the first super sayan transformation it felt like we doesn't even know what will come. it's great surprise at the end, but doesn't feel "smart" as the first super sayan.

there's also the fact that the power levels were leveled up too much over the saga, but it's another full article to wrote about lol.

so general for the cell saga - 8.5/10
great arc with dragon ball priceless moments, but it's downhills aren't helping it.
Terrestrious said:
Like how Trunks surpassed Vegeta in power but choose to conceal this in order to not damage Vegeta's pride, as opposed to how Gohan had no idea he surpassed Goku but Goku did and concealed it because of his belief in Gohan's strength. This carries over with Trunks and Goku's death and Vegeta and Gohan's hand in Cell's defeat in the end. It was pretty interesting to have this relationship dynamics around too though the explorations are pretty surface.
it's actually incorrect, as trunks admitted vegeta could have gone that level as well. but yeah the point is good overall. though i dunno if it was inntended.
(by the way you reading this read my entire post lol)
Apr 11, 12:06 PM
#6

Offline
Nov 2010
542
Ah, the Cell arc. Everyone's favourite arc.

Growing up, I became a huge fan of Dragon Ball and I used to re-read the volumes constantly. Most of my volumes have very damaged spines and it's fun to see which ones are more well-read than others. It's easy to spot my old favourites. And well, these most recent ones are in pretty good condition. Meaning I didn't actually read them that much.

When I think of Dragon Ball, my mind mostly wanders to the first 3-4 arcs. Those earlier arcs are charming and have really fun and likeable characters. The world feels exciting and often goofy. I love the sense of adventure and exploring the world that Toriyama creates. The art in those early arcs is great as well. Things take a turn for more serious storytelling later on, and the Piccolo fight and Vegeta fight is where the fighting of Dragon Ball reaches it peak. Dragon Ball got a problem with having too many characters, and having a small crew to Namek really solves that, and that first part of the Namek arc excels both in story with higher stakes and strong character-work.

And then comes the Cell arc (or Android arc or whatever people call it). I don't like it as much as most people do, in fact I think it's one of the weaker arcs of the series.

My first big criticism is the art. Not really sure when it started happening but it's such a big downgrade. I just don't like the way Toriyama draws some characters at this point. Goku looks weird, especially after he wakes up from his big sleep. It's all in the eyes. Gohan gets the same eyes for the most part, and I'm not a fan. Everyone is also drawn with a lot straigher lines which I don't like from their previous roundness. C18 and C17. There's very few moments where there's any interesting background and most of the time it's just white. There's some cool new character designs (Trunks, first form Cell), but not much else sticks out in a positive way.

Second criticism, it's all so depressive and dour. I'm all for this tone in manga, but it's just not what I go to Dragon Ball or Toriyama for. I like some aspects of it though, like the horror-parts with Cell first appearing. And there's a weird calm before the storm-feeling right before the Cell games that I enjoy. And the whole part with Trunks appearing from a destroyed future is interesting and unique to this arc.

Thirdly, this is the arc where it's the most noticeable Toriyama is making it up as he goes. Trunks warns of C19 and C20. They are defeated. Twist, C20 is Dr Gero! Trunks retcons his story so he always warned of C18 and C17. Twist, the new cyborgs aren't that bad! Oh new twist, there's another big villain, Cell! The story changes too often and it feels a bit jarring. Looking back at the arc, the early cyborgs feel so disconnected from everything that comes later. Almost as if it's a separe arc, which many people count it as, but then what is that arc? None of the other parts can stand on their own legs as arcs if they are separated.

Fourth, the villains, or some of them. Dr Gero is pretty interesting but he’s in the story for such a short time. C17 and C18 are great but they don’t do much and are overshadowed quickly by Cell. Vegeta is arguably one of the villains of the arc, mainly making everything worse for everyone. But more on him later. The big villain is Cell, and I don’t like him. I like his first appearance as a scary inhuman monster. But as soon as he opens his mouth, that all goes away. He starts by explaining his whole plan to Piccolo and all of that mystery is completely gone. His two other forms are a big downgrade in design as well. Overall, the idea with transformations and Cell’s final form in particular just feels like Toriyama trying to recapture Freezer. But what is Cell’s goal? Be strong. Defeat other strong people. I get that it comes from his programming and the saiyan genes but it’s boring as motivation. And he’s just super boring, just standring around waiting for the Cell games to start. He doesn’t have much of an personality, no fun quirks (which is a big part of the arc lacking the tone that I like in Dragon Ball). I also don’t like Cell’s powers. The healing and regeneration doesn’t make sense and is just boring as it makes him over powered. And I still don’t get what happens with him in the end. A villain with weird and inconsistent powers would have worked better when Dragon Ball was more of a comical fantasy, but it doesn’t work now with the tone of this arc.

Fifth, “is everyone blind AND stupid?”. Not sure if it’s intentional but I feel that most characters just act dumb and sometimes out of character. First of all, the whole arc can be blamed on the heroes not doing anything to stop Dr Gero or learn anything about him before the cyborgs appear. They only wish people back that Cell killed, so some of those people are forever gone. Goku’s plan to let Gohan fight without telling him anything is stupid and mean. Vegeta feels like a big stupid brute, which is completely different from him being one of the smartest characters before. The whole saiyan pride thing just goes too far.

And once again, why does everyone accept Vegeta?? So Vegeta has been laying low for a while, going to barbeques and whatnot, so they all think he’s fine. Our heroes are so used to villains having turned good, they just think he’s done that as well. But he hasn’t? Not until the very last fight does Vegeta do anything that resembles him turning into a better person. So why do they all accept when he does terrible things like punching Trunks, letting Cell consume C18 and kill a random truck driver? Not sure if this is a criticism of Vegeta’s character or everyone elses.

So who are we supposed to connect with? Who’s actually doing the right things and being a good person? Gohan usually is (and was great at that role in the early Namek arc), but he hardly does anything this arc up until the very last fight. That fight he loses everything that makes him likeable. So who’s the best person in this arc? There’s really only two. Trunks - he’s a good guy and he wants to save the world. That’s a good goal. He’s also polite. That’s a good trait. I like him. The other one is Kuririn, who thankfully continues to be somewhat relevant even if he can’t compare power-wise. Kuririn make all the right decisions. He sees the humanity in the cyborgs and doesn’t kill innocent people. He’s also displays some real kindness in accepting that C18 might not like him and just wants what’s best for her. I hate everyone for doubting his judgment. Yamcha is going on barbeques with his killer so he should just shut up. Kuririn’s wish is the most selfless of any of the wishes in the series. He also shows some weird psychic abilities to sense Trunks hidden power, but can’t do that with Gohan. He should have been the one person that should have guessed Goku’s plan. He should know Gohan a lot from Namek.

Maybe I’m nitpicking, but there’s so many things I don’t like. There’s a lot of uniqueness to the arc which makes it stronger than the Piccolo arc, but I probably like it less than any of the others. But I do really like all of Dragon Ball, this arc included, which is probably easier to tell when reading my thoughts on individual chapters.

--------------

User-Name said:
what was also missed to me is the sayan logic - in the namek and frieza arc there was clear destination of the super sayan legend, but the whole super sayan 2 felt less backgrounded. i understand the need of power up, but unlike the first super sayan transformation it felt like we doesn't even know what will come. it's great surprise at the end, but doesn't feel "smart" as the first super sayan.


Great point! Agree with this fully. There's no clear distinction of what super saiyan 2 is at this point. It's just more super, more power. Did Goku plan for Gohan to actually do a second transformation? Was that part of his stupid plan? It really comes from nowhere.
Apr 11, 5:03 PM
#7

Offline
Dec 2007
7904
Reply to Fantalicious
Ah, the Cell arc. Everyone's favourite arc.

Growing up, I became a huge fan of Dragon Ball and I used to re-read the volumes constantly. Most of my volumes have very damaged spines and it's fun to see which ones are more well-read than others. It's easy to spot my old favourites. And well, these most recent ones are in pretty good condition. Meaning I didn't actually read them that much.

When I think of Dragon Ball, my mind mostly wanders to the first 3-4 arcs. Those earlier arcs are charming and have really fun and likeable characters. The world feels exciting and often goofy. I love the sense of adventure and exploring the world that Toriyama creates. The art in those early arcs is great as well. Things take a turn for more serious storytelling later on, and the Piccolo fight and Vegeta fight is where the fighting of Dragon Ball reaches it peak. Dragon Ball got a problem with having too many characters, and having a small crew to Namek really solves that, and that first part of the Namek arc excels both in story with higher stakes and strong character-work.

And then comes the Cell arc (or Android arc or whatever people call it). I don't like it as much as most people do, in fact I think it's one of the weaker arcs of the series.

My first big criticism is the art. Not really sure when it started happening but it's such a big downgrade. I just don't like the way Toriyama draws some characters at this point. Goku looks weird, especially after he wakes up from his big sleep. It's all in the eyes. Gohan gets the same eyes for the most part, and I'm not a fan. Everyone is also drawn with a lot straigher lines which I don't like from their previous roundness. C18 and C17. There's very few moments where there's any interesting background and most of the time it's just white. There's some cool new character designs (Trunks, first form Cell), but not much else sticks out in a positive way.

Second criticism, it's all so depressive and dour. I'm all for this tone in manga, but it's just not what I go to Dragon Ball or Toriyama for. I like some aspects of it though, like the horror-parts with Cell first appearing. And there's a weird calm before the storm-feeling right before the Cell games that I enjoy. And the whole part with Trunks appearing from a destroyed future is interesting and unique to this arc.

Thirdly, this is the arc where it's the most noticeable Toriyama is making it up as he goes. Trunks warns of C19 and C20. They are defeated. Twist, C20 is Dr Gero! Trunks retcons his story so he always warned of C18 and C17. Twist, the new cyborgs aren't that bad! Oh new twist, there's another big villain, Cell! The story changes too often and it feels a bit jarring. Looking back at the arc, the early cyborgs feel so disconnected from everything that comes later. Almost as if it's a separe arc, which many people count it as, but then what is that arc? None of the other parts can stand on their own legs as arcs if they are separated.

Fourth, the villains, or some of them. Dr Gero is pretty interesting but he’s in the story for such a short time. C17 and C18 are great but they don’t do much and are overshadowed quickly by Cell. Vegeta is arguably one of the villains of the arc, mainly making everything worse for everyone. But more on him later. The big villain is Cell, and I don’t like him. I like his first appearance as a scary inhuman monster. But as soon as he opens his mouth, that all goes away. He starts by explaining his whole plan to Piccolo and all of that mystery is completely gone. His two other forms are a big downgrade in design as well. Overall, the idea with transformations and Cell’s final form in particular just feels like Toriyama trying to recapture Freezer. But what is Cell’s goal? Be strong. Defeat other strong people. I get that it comes from his programming and the saiyan genes but it’s boring as motivation. And he’s just super boring, just standring around waiting for the Cell games to start. He doesn’t have much of an personality, no fun quirks (which is a big part of the arc lacking the tone that I like in Dragon Ball). I also don’t like Cell’s powers. The healing and regeneration doesn’t make sense and is just boring as it makes him over powered. And I still don’t get what happens with him in the end. A villain with weird and inconsistent powers would have worked better when Dragon Ball was more of a comical fantasy, but it doesn’t work now with the tone of this arc.

Fifth, “is everyone blind AND stupid?”. Not sure if it’s intentional but I feel that most characters just act dumb and sometimes out of character. First of all, the whole arc can be blamed on the heroes not doing anything to stop Dr Gero or learn anything about him before the cyborgs appear. They only wish people back that Cell killed, so some of those people are forever gone. Goku’s plan to let Gohan fight without telling him anything is stupid and mean. Vegeta feels like a big stupid brute, which is completely different from him being one of the smartest characters before. The whole saiyan pride thing just goes too far.

And once again, why does everyone accept Vegeta?? So Vegeta has been laying low for a while, going to barbeques and whatnot, so they all think he’s fine. Our heroes are so used to villains having turned good, they just think he’s done that as well. But he hasn’t? Not until the very last fight does Vegeta do anything that resembles him turning into a better person. So why do they all accept when he does terrible things like punching Trunks, letting Cell consume C18 and kill a random truck driver? Not sure if this is a criticism of Vegeta’s character or everyone elses.

So who are we supposed to connect with? Who’s actually doing the right things and being a good person? Gohan usually is (and was great at that role in the early Namek arc), but he hardly does anything this arc up until the very last fight. That fight he loses everything that makes him likeable. So who’s the best person in this arc? There’s really only two. Trunks - he’s a good guy and he wants to save the world. That’s a good goal. He’s also polite. That’s a good trait. I like him. The other one is Kuririn, who thankfully continues to be somewhat relevant even if he can’t compare power-wise. Kuririn make all the right decisions. He sees the humanity in the cyborgs and doesn’t kill innocent people. He’s also displays some real kindness in accepting that C18 might not like him and just wants what’s best for her. I hate everyone for doubting his judgment. Yamcha is going on barbeques with his killer so he should just shut up. Kuririn’s wish is the most selfless of any of the wishes in the series. He also shows some weird psychic abilities to sense Trunks hidden power, but can’t do that with Gohan. He should have been the one person that should have guessed Goku’s plan. He should know Gohan a lot from Namek.

Maybe I’m nitpicking, but there’s so many things I don’t like. There’s a lot of uniqueness to the arc which makes it stronger than the Piccolo arc, but I probably like it less than any of the others. But I do really like all of Dragon Ball, this arc included, which is probably easier to tell when reading my thoughts on individual chapters.

--------------

User-Name said:
what was also missed to me is the sayan logic - in the namek and frieza arc there was clear destination of the super sayan legend, but the whole super sayan 2 felt less backgrounded. i understand the need of power up, but unlike the first super sayan transformation it felt like we doesn't even know what will come. it's great surprise at the end, but doesn't feel "smart" as the first super sayan.


Great point! Agree with this fully. There's no clear distinction of what super saiyan 2 is at this point. It's just more super, more power. Did Goku plan for Gohan to actually do a second transformation? Was that part of his stupid plan? It really comes from nowhere.
Fantalicious said:
Great point! Agree with this fully. There's no clear distinction of what super saiyan 2 is at this point. It's just more super, more power. Did Goku plan for Gohan to actually do a second transformation? Was that part of his stupid plan? It really comes from nowhere.
I need to read your full comment, but i will at least comment your on my quote.
regardless of the whole "super sayan system goes shit" (lol), gohan's development is what truly was always a necessary and also foreshadowed. that much is expected. it's also actually my favourite character arc on DBZ to date, regardless the rest of cell arc problems. the problem is the non-existed super sayan 2 form prior to gohan's, or more accurate the buu arc.
basically what i'm saying is, super sayan 2 could have been gohan's unique phase. that he achieved greater power than goku, his own kind of "super sayan", his own kind of form. and basically he concealed it because he was always afraid of his own power. that much is reasonable and the manga foreshadowing it greatly. the problem is the buu arc that shits the whole super sayan system in all shity direction lol.

reading your comment *
Fantalicious said:
And I still don’t get what happens with him in the end.

basically toriyama feels as gohan kicking cell's ass isn't enough as it's not exciting enough, so goku has to sacrifice himself, in flavor of plot armor that deserves only to finish the whole father & son theme over the cell arc.
overall, i admit it is rough, but also - i can't imagine it otherwise.
Fantalicious said:
Goku’s plan to let Gohan fight without telling him anything is stupid and mean.

this is actually in my opinion the most interesting part in this arc - goku always thinks that gohan knows what to do.
in a way, this is sort of father & son disconnect. and it's making sense a lot since he didn't was with gohan when he changed a lot during the sayan arc - picollo was there, and that's why picollo knows gohan better.
when you think about it, it's real smart move from toriyama. you only need to read between the lines. something that not a lot of authors does very much those days.
Fantalicious said:
And once again, why does everyone accept Vegeta?? So Vegeta has been laying low for a while, going to barbeques and whatnot, so they all think he’s fine. Our heroes are so used to villains having turned good, they just think he’s done that as well. But he hasn’t? Not until the very last fight does Vegeta do anything that resembles him turning into a better person. So why do they all accept when he does terrible things like punching Trunks, letting Cell consume C18 and kill a random truck driver? Not sure if this is a criticism of Vegeta’s character or everyone elses.

i don't understand this complain. what's likable on vegeta after the freeza arc, unlike picollo being the "best guy in the neighbourhood" since the very start of the sayan arc, vegeta is always half-goody-half-vilanny. no one accepts him except trunks who learns to appreciate his father's pride.
Fantalicious said:
Gohan usually is (and was great at that role in the early Namek arc),

i actually thinks that gohan's growth in cell arc is effected directly from his role at the namek arc. but that's just my opinions. (gohan-child pre buu arc will always be my favourite dbz character).
Fantalicious said:
I hate everyone for doubting his judgment.

i don't think anyone is. i love how kuririn keeps being relevant in the dbz arcs. unlike

who ceased to be a character a lot before picollo arc in the db arcs.
toriyama should have forgotten him much like that girl who sneezes and change personality (i forgot her name too lol).
but then
Fantalicious said:
He also shows some weird psychic abilities to sense Trunks hidden power, but can’t do that with Gohan.

i understand the need to power-up kuririn, but you can't do that, since dbz arcs logic allow only non-human to be more powerful than non-human. something that i deeply wish toriyama wouldn't had done.
User-NameApr 11, 7:38 PM

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