Puella Magi Madoka Magica
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geasscommander said: I recollect Faust thinking he sees Gretchen, Mephistopholes trying to convince him it's Medusa and next trying to focus his attention on a theatre, before giving in to saving Gretchen. Come to think of it, Medusa with her cut off head brings Mami in mind. Doesn't really matter though, my point was that it's likely there are more than one things happening on Walpurchis, and I think it's clear where Homura's focus lies. geasscommander said: So, if Madoka was to truely follow this, I think it would be by 1. Madoka tries to help the other Puella Magi at Walpurchis, can't, and turns to QB for help, and makes a wish and becomes a Puella Magi, but it will ruin her in the end, or 2. Homura will try to help Madoka, but Madoaka wn't let her, and makes Homura save the town instead, in exchang for something happening to Madoka, possibly death. Yes, now that the soulgem thing is out of the bag, the Madoka -> turning MS (= dying in a way) -> salvation becomes very likely, though I hope Gen Urobuchi comes up with a dark twist. I still believe in a 3d option: Groundhog day scenario. Madoka's wish will make things go back to normal. |
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| Kyuubei must DIE!!! As if this shit wasn't serious enough...now we've got a love triangle. Can you imagine how desperate Sayaka must feel right about now? She sold her soul to have Kyuubei grant her wish to heal Kamijo's hand because she loves him so much. Later, she finds out that she's a soulless shell...and then discovers that Hitomi is in love with Kamijo and plans to confess to him. A confession that he will probably say yes to, because this show is just wicked and twisted like that. And...there's nothing that Sayaka can do about it because she's basically a walking dead body. If this were me, I'd become a total berserker! After all, I now have nothing left to live for. I'd become totally reckless in battle and purposely try to get myself killed. Kyuubei is such an evil bastard that when/if Sayaka dies, Kamijo's hand will return to its injured state. Can't wait for the next episode. |
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| Sayaka's reaction is normal, predictable and pitiful. She's only a freaking little girl. However, at this point Sayaka gets what she deserves. At this point, she's gotten as many warnings and as much information as anybody. At this point, I don't doubt that's she's going to serve as the example. She can say she wants to be a hero all she wants. She's just deluding herself. I also see that maybe I've been overreacting to Kyubey. He doesn't seem evil. He's simply not human and doesn't understand humans. This misunderstanding apparently leads to him seeming evil due to his "all business" approach. Homura has been dead right all along. And the more naively these girls deal with the situation, the more frustrating it becomes to watch them. Interesting choice of direction in the end as well, I would have liked for them to show all the violence that went along with the scene, but what they did was just as effective.  |
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| The love triangle was unexpected. What's wrong with Sayaka. She didn't even confessed and she already snapped out? I don't know about the direction of this but still it's interesting to watch. |
| And now I take an apple, and... EAT IT! |
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| Kyubey is so evil.... so evil. If he's really evil, he can use the "pain" he used on Sayaka to threaten the rest of the mahou shoujos. Sayaka totally went yandere at the end. Interesting twist :D |
 Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
| I've been wondering this for a while, but when Sayaka says, she doesn't feel any pain, does that mean she somehow sent more of her soul into the gem, like QB said could happen in the beginning. She was pretty unstable at that point. cleo said: I recollect Faust thinking he sees Gretchen, Mephistopholes trying to convince him it's Medusa and next trying to focus his attention on a theatre, before giving in to saving Gretchen. Come to think of it, Medusa with her cut off head brings Mami in mind. (Turns through copy of Faust) Here it is. What he saw was a wraith, which is a German spirit with a cut around its neck, similar to the cut Medusa has. Normally, I would agree that it doesn't matter, but your comment was interesting because the wraith takes the appearance of what people want to see. Both Sayaka and Madoka say things they want to be in Mami, who then had head bitten off, which means... I honestly don't know. Really interesting thought though. |
| I have a feeling that Madoka will wish everyone to return to their normal lives at the end. And goddammit Kyubey, I wish I could kill you. |
yun90 said: I have a feeling that Madoka will wish everyone to return to their normal lives at the end. And goddammit Kyubey, I wish I could kill you. The way this is going, I don't see a good ending. I frankly don't think the 12th episode will resolve the conflict. I have a hunch that the last episode will end with Madoka accepting the contract, leading to a cliffhanger or ambiguous ending. After we manage to pick up our jaws off the floor, we will salivate for the OVA or second season. |
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| What a great episode. nuff' said Yumekichi11 said: Just wow. great discussion efforts.. how much time it take to make this post? if i make a post like that, with my mediocre english, it will take a complete day i guess. |
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| Also just noticed, first witch fight without any german words! |
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| Shinbou is probably my favorite director at this point. |
waterfallsFeb 24, 2011 6:52 PM
Nigatsu said: I guess both. Plus Kyubey making her nuts.Awesome episode. It's nice to see her all berserk and crazy. I wonder is she like that because of her emotions or is it because she used her powers too much and didn't clean her own soul gem. |
| Dutch anime blogger with a love for Ikuhara's antics and proper storytelling. |
yun90 said: I have a feeling that Madoka will wish everyone to return to their normal lives at the end. And goddammit Kyubey, I wish I could kill you. Frankly that would just ruin the whole show for me. It might be weird, but I don't want a happy ending, since that doesn't fit in with the rest. I want it to continue down this awesome, dark, yet very sad road, because that's what makes this anime so badass. This show is rare, there aren't many like this out there, so I'm gonna be pissed if the ending is ruined. Oh well. Overall a very intense episode. Sadly, Sayaka is losing it and I don't think she'll stay alive for much longer. And Kyouko, fff, I love her. <3 |
 love is such a strange thing but with you, it doesn't matter |
| They dumped yet another set of suggestive images. This time, we've got serpents, a tree, apples, a sword-wielding angel, church imagery, etc. With enough squinting, I suppose it's possible to connect this to the Fall of Man with its themes of temptation (Kyuubey or Kyouko), power/knowledge, realization and shame (swapping "nakedness" with "being zombies"), exile and alienation, and mostly good people royally screwing themselves thanks to ambiguous ToS. Anyway, people have been speculating for a while that Sayaka may become the witch shown in the prologue, but I just couldn't see how she could ever turn into a malevolent force given her set of ideals. Loss of sanity due to emotional breakdown seems possible, but it sounds rather cheap. |
Omniknight said: Also just noticed, first witch fight without any german words! There were runes, saying Elsa Maria (the name of the witch)  geasscommander said: I've been wondering this for a while, but when Sayaka says, she doesn't feel any pain, does that mean she somehow sent more of her soul into the gem, like QB said could happen in the beginning. She was pretty unstable at that point. The way Nutbladder translates it: she can block out pain (in varying degrees), because her consciousness isn't directly connected to her body. If she wants, she can block all pain, but he warns her against it, as it blunts her reactions. Ofcourse we've seen it also means that her subconscious takes over, making her go Berserk-mode. It'll certainly have effect on her soulgem. geasscommander said: cleo said: I recollect Faust thinking he sees Gretchen, Mephistopholes trying to convince him it's Medusa and next trying to focus his attention on a theatre, before giving in to saving Gretchen. Come to think of it, Medusa with her cut off head brings Mami in mind. (Turns through copy of Faust) Here it is. What he saw was a wraith, which is a German spirit with a cut around its neck, similar to the cut Medusa has. Normally, I would agree that it doesn't matter, but your comment was interesting because the wraith takes the appearance of what people want to see. Both Sayaka and Madoka say things they want to be in Mami, who then had head bitten off, which means... I honestly don't know. Really interesting thought though. Here's a modern translation: http://en.goethe-faust.org/first-part-of-the-tragedy/walpurgis-night "Deluded fool! 'Tis magic, I declare! To each she doth his lov'd one's image wear." Madoka - Mami? Sayaka - Kamiyou? or Mami? |
cleoFeb 18, 2011 1:24 PM
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| I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that my prediction for next episode is that Sayaka commits suicide in a spectacularly bloody manner. Probably seppuku. |
| I can just tell SOMEONE is gonna be dead next EP, too bad it can't be useless Madoka =_=" |
| That love triangle quite literally came out nowhere and is quite contrived in my opinion. Still, it was a fantastic episode. I've been waiting for Sayaka to go batshit insane, and here she is. Hoo boy, this is going to get even better. |
Mony-Chan said: yun90 said: I have a feeling that Madoka will wish everyone to return to their normal lives at the end. And goddammit Kyubey, I wish I could kill you. Frankly that would just ruin the whole show for me. It might be weird, but I don't want a happy ending, since that doesn't fit in with the rest. I want it to continue down this awesome, dark, yet very sad road, because that's what makes this anime so badass. This show is rare, there aren't many like this out there, so I'm gonna be pissed if the ending is ruined. Oh well. Overall a very intense episode. Sadly, Sayaka is losing it and I don't think she'll stay alive for much longer. And Kyouko, fff, I love her. <3 I agree, it seems 2 unlikley for a happy ending scenario. But I also guessed that Madoka might use her wish to save others...the dark side would be that she herself would have to suffer for it...I think that'd b pretty tragic since Madoka is this innocent figure. I kinda want a happy ending, just not happy enough to ruin the series. Bittersweet in a way:) |
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waterfalls said: Nope, just one of animation technique that Shaft loves to use.Was it my imagination, or was there a Bad Apple reference in the fight at the end? |
| Nice episode! I saw the relationship troubles comming, but that ending, waw, you got me there! ^^ |
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| Madoka needs to transform already in the next ! Mami is still my favourite ( but I also like Kyouko ) Please bring her back to life ;( |
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| Great episode. I liked the plot twist that Hitomi is in love with Kamijo and Sayaka can't do much. If Kamijo choose Hitomi, then Sayaka will become lunatic for good, I believe. And for a more dramatic moment, I'd like Sayaka to die, maybe that will push Madoka to take her place and become a puella magi. But I wonder about Homura. She said that perhaps she is not human, so I wonder about her background. So far she is one of the most mysterious characters. Kyouko's past was also touching, it should be expected that it was something bad. Can't wait for the next episode. |
| Poor Sayaka-chan lost her marbles. Next episode won't be pretty at all... |
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taki-desu said: nishimari said: Kyubey, you're a diabolic sadist. I must be the only one who finds him awesome aren't I? i agree... actually everyone pretty much misunderstands him. many have a vested interest in the other characters so their predicament makes them antagonize Kyubey. when you take a neutral stance, just about everything you do could either be seen as bad or good the pending on who is seeing it. thus far, he has done nothing that would be considered deceitful.....unless they say otherwise later. in case you haven't noticed, this is a "be careful what you wish for" type of story. Kyubey is merely a broker and a provider; not a moral judge or otherwise an idiot filter. -Vid said: Oh man. I just LOVED it when Kyubey tortured Sayaka. It was like.. you pathetic piece of crap mahou shoujo, I'm the boss here. Go kill witches for me, get some grief seeds and shut up. : that was not torture. that was a very precise way of showing her exactly what she got herself into. it is certainly better than having a spear driven in her chest. in fact i might even go as far to say that he didn't even have to teach her that. that was more like a scene of a teacher demonstrating to his student. he can probably show them what it would be like before they make their wish directly but he wont do anything or tell them anything unless they ask. i am beginning to think that he probably has some really strict rules that govern him. he takes a completely neutral stance, which is evidenced by the fight between the two Mahou Shoujo. |
kisamiFeb 18, 2011 4:35 PM
| The more I watch this, the more I think this is going to end on a total mind f**k Btw, Sayaka has officially snapped =/ |
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| Explains why QB goes after little girls because they don't think about the fine print. Well at least I haven't seen him go after older girls who will ask for questions. I don't really watch Mahou Shoujo this was just an exception because I got the impression that it wasn't just about cute little girls. I hope there is a retirement age or else this is the worst job ever. I also don't think QB is evil I think he can't relate to humans(the end justify the means). I personally don't see why the characters and some people think it's a big deal to have your soul removed. If Sayaka was able to cry that must mean there is some human left in her. Besides being a zombie would probably cause problems come your physical exam. It's better this way even if it isn't nice because the body can take a beating. I don't think Sayaka is going to die either because Madoka is trying to keep an eye on her. It's not like Madoka can do anything but I think QB wants Sayaka to die so Madoka goes Mahou Shoujo. Homura will probably do something before Sayaka does something stupid. Also i doubt Mahou shoujo become witches but the witches are like like zergs. Because most of these girls are in it for the grief seeds the witches can make more witches (Spawn Zerglings). I am probably wrong but thats my opinion. |
| I loved Kyouko in this episode.^^ Also, the ending sequence was epic. So much evangelion feelings in Sayaka's reaction. \o/ |
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layfonkun said: That's my other option if I get Shafted about him. If that is so, then it would mean someone is behind his creation and that means someone is higher. This could be a Bokurano where we may never know the higher ups but we may have a vision of them to see what he or they look like. Anyone who has seen Bokurano would know exactly what I mean. In any case I want to meet this person and slap him out for killing off innocent girls like that. This game is shit and lives are playing around in a cycle that is infinite unless someone breaks it like in Bokurano through a means it will never end, looking at Homura. Even her I am not sure if putting a end to the leader in Walpurgisnacht can solve things since he may be just part of the higher ups but not the leader.Am I the only person who finds Kyubey fascinating? Many people seem to find him cruel but I don't see it that way. He reminds me of a machine, very logical and calculating, however that does not make him evil. His methods to me are fine, and he has a point: she didn't ask. Would you buy a new car without asking questions? kisami said: Also I think because of showing her that she tested it out to the max during her fight with the witch. Apart from Hitomi influencing her in that, a though passed through me as I see this for 2nd time, that of Sayaka testing out how slow her moves are when she is damaged a lot. Turns out she finds they are not slow at all and the pain does not feel at all anymore.-Vid said: That was not torture. that was a very precise way of showing her exactly what she got herself into. it is certainly better than having a spear driven in her chest. in fact i might even go as far to say that he didn't even have to teach her that. that was more like a scene of a teacher demonstrating to his student. he can probably show them what it would be like before they make their wish directly but he wont do anything or tell them anything unless they ask. i am beginning to think that he probably has some really strict rules that govern him. he takes a completely neutral stance, which is evidenced by the fight between the two Mahou Shoujo. Oh man. I just LOVED it when Kyubey tortured Sayaka. It was like.. you pathetic piece of crap mahou shoujo, I'm the boss here. Go kill witches for me, get some grief seeds and shut up. : |
Yumekichi11Feb 18, 2011 7:03 PM
Byfuzzerabbit said: I also don't think QB is evil I think he can't relate to humans(the end justify the means). I personally don't see why the characters and some people think it's a big deal to have your soul removed. If Sayaka was able to cry that must mean there is some human left in her. Besides being a zombie would probably cause problems come your physical exam. It's better this way even if it isn't nice because the body can take a beating. Exactly, I don't get why they are making a big deal about it. KB is the most reasonable character in this anime, along with Homura. QB explained it VERY clearly: this lich-like characteristic is very handy in fighting witches. Although my world view does grow more nihilistic by every passing year, so my opinion cannot be generalized. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Oooh, good episode. :D Really interested in where the love triangle will go, and I'm glad that Hitomi will play an important role in Sayaka's story now. The battle at the end between Sayaka and the witch was really creepy, and that evil grin.. uh oh. >_< |
| If Kyubey isn't evil, then at the very least he's still a heartless bastard. He's definitely bounded by some sort of rules although he pushes them as far as he can. Even if he can't force them to make a contract he's still extremely pushy and deceptive into coercing them into making a contract. He's not allowed to make suggestions although he can push small temptations into their ears.He is likely not allowed to interfere with the workings of the world either, except for contacting potential Puella Magi and contracting with them. He is also likely unable to attack others and unable to defend himself except via running away. It also seems that Kyubey definitely has a genuine agenda for fighting witches. So far all of his arguments for the purpose of converting souls into soul gems are all for fighting witches in the best manner possible. Due to the nature of the soul and of magic in the Madoka world, converting the soul into the soul gem is the best course of action for enabling former humans to fight witches which are a real threat to the stability of the world. |
| Did not anticipate that Hitomi bombshell.... brilliant. This show is getting better and better... |
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Byfuzzerabbit said: Explains why QB goes after little girls because they don't think about the fine print. Well at least I haven't seen him go after older girls who will ask for questions. I don't really watch Mahou Shoujo this was just an exception because I got the impression that it wasn't just about cute little girls. I hope there is a retirement age or else this is the worst job ever. I also don't think QB is evil I think he can't relate to humans(the end justify the means). I personally don't see why the characters and some people think it's a big deal to have your soul removed. If Sayaka was able to cry that must mean there is some human left in her. Besides being a zombie would probably cause problems come your physical exam. It's better this way even if it isn't nice because the body can take a beating. I don't think Sayaka is going to die either because Madoka is trying to keep an eye on her. It's not like Madoka can do anything but I think QB wants Sayaka to die so Madoka goes Mahou Shoujo. Homura will probably do something before Sayaka does something stupid. Also i doubt Mahou shoujo become witches but the witches are like like zergs. Because most of these girls are in it for the grief seeds the witches can make more witches (Spawn Zerglings). I am probably wrong but thats my opinion. he doesn't just go after anybody. it has to be one who is already predisposed to being a mahou shoujo that AGREES to be come one. i guess being able to see QB is also a requirement. if you noticed madoka can still use telepathy but she isn't one yet. also in most mythologies, adults lose their ability to see and interact with fantastical entities. ie: imaginary friends, going through a cupboard to a strange world...etc.... the idea that adults lose their innocence and therefore their proficiency in magic, witchery etc.... |
| Hi folks, I have read through all of your relevant points and would like to point out certain stuff . Virtue and moral is relative. The way that we define good and bad is through our limited perceptive of what society and the environment defines us. In that aspect, Madoka, Sayaka and even Mami-san (as most of you would like to call her) (and Kyuubey too), could be immoral to a group of outsiders. (For example, they are bad because they are disrupting what a natural cycle of nature such as witch regeneration and stuff like that.) Extending the argument, Kyuubey thinks that what he is doing is the so called "right" way because he is preventing the "grief" of the world, the witches, from doing evil to the world, by contracting little girls in an equivalent exchange of their commitment to fighting witches (and the after mentioned effects) with a miracle that could not exist in the standard view of the physical world itself . Mami-san, too, by dedicating her life to fighting witches. But he is "evil" too because he "tricks" little girls into doing his work for him. By extending the argument even further, we could see that the concept of virtue, good and evil is being even more flawed, and that is even before computing all of the paradigms of different people and their "noble" (that is even being disputed-what is really right and what is really wrong) perception of morality itself. This, could lead to a big big question of what really is ethics? What I could conclude in a almost certain term then, is that the commonly used perception of a part of morality is only what today's "superior" (superior as in society's alpha humans), only want us to behave as, through the use of "fear" and "reward" so as to maintain the status quo of the community. And I just realize that I have deviated off the topic by this point. Hopefully, someone could make another topic regarding to this and we have a nice discussion then. The rest of the stuff I will post at a later time, especially on what Yumekichi said on the first page. Seeya. PS: Not so much Faust references eh? Just curious. |
| I hate myself. That is my philosophy. |
| Another superb episode.... Madoka Magica Never disappoints me..... :D |
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| Kyubei is so sadistic. O__O And Sadaka just lost the plot lol. |
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.~ |
| Let's challenge. http://void.heteml.jp/flash/hmhm_jump/ |
Yuunagi said: Anyway, people have been speculating for a while that Sayaka may become the witch shown in the prologue, but I just couldn't see how she could ever turn into a malevolent force given her set of ideals. Loss of sanity due to emotional breakdown seems possible, but it sounds rather cheap. Well we've seen that after Hitomi's revelation, she thought it would've been better if she hadn't saved her in ep 4. Her pain can lead her to do things that contradict her morals and ideals, and that contradiction inside her will (probably) be her doom. Turning cynical like Kyouko isn't an option for her, as her morals won't allow that. On top of that we've seen she's quick to jump to conclusions, she's too impulsive, she's quite intolerant about anything contradicting her way of thinking (with a tendency of a black-and-white way of thinking), and she has no problem with violence for the good course. She's a very different idealist from peace-loving Madoka. She's been through the 5 stages of grief, hit rock-bottom, and now she knows she can kill. PV suggests she's wants to be a martyr, an ally of justice, as she's lost her wish. Noble perhaps, but not very healthy. She really wants to be selfless and idealistic, but I can easily see her getting too dogmatic and extreme, and thus turn into the spitting image of the enemy. Given the similarity between wishes and curses, it's a small step from there to become a witch. Aside from that, what started the speculation was this:  The hospital Kaiyou was staying in, was in Madoka's 'dream' in ep 1. nerdyguy said: Extending the argument, Kyuubey thinks that what he is doing is the so called "right" way because he is preventing the "grief" of the world, the witches, from doing evil to the world, by contracting little girls in an equivalent exchange of their commitment to fighting witches (and the after mentioned effects) with a miracle that could not exist in the standard view of the physical world itself . Mami-san, too, by dedicating her life to fighting witches. But he is "evil" too because he "tricks" little girls into doing his work for him. Exactly. By human standards, an evil person is usually defined as one who understands what's right, but intentionally disregards those moral standards anyway. So by human standards, QB is certainly evil. But can we hold something inhuman to human standards? It's become clear that more knowledge for the MG's leads to more suffering and despair. In that respect, he might be doing them a favor by witholding knowledge. nerdyguy said: How about making that topic yourself? It's a nice deviation, but I agree that a discussion on good and evil & wrong or right (also from the POV of the characters, who all have their flaws) doesn't belong in an episode thread. nerdyguy said: PS: Not so much Faust references eh? Just curious. Eh? Plenty in the series I'd say, and it's been brought up in almost all the episode threads. But not so much in this ep (if that's what you meant). Mikenter said: Except he doesn't hand out those fine prints, which from his pov is probably quite understandable.He's doing his job and creating Magical Girls. He doesn't need to explain unless they ask. Think about it. If you don't read the fine print on that contract you just signed, you're fucked either which way. Read then sign. Terms and agreements. You know. Common sense. But us humans like to know what we're getting into before making a choice, and in that respect it wasn't a fair choice. |
cleoFeb 19, 2011 6:03 AM
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| All I can say is that I finally recognize the sound in Mahou Shoujo Madoka as brilliant. The light, dark ambient music is exceptional and all the seiyus are relaying the feelings they should have... The actions seems to pick and somehow I'm really glad that Madoka isn't becoming a Mahou Shoujo. Also, Kyubei seems to be the biggest antagonist in this show. As for the art, Shaft is going big time. I really liked the stylized art in this episode. The love triangle is a big addition I think and as it seems, it will greatly influence Sayaka's performances... With all that said, I'm nearly able to give a 10 to this show, which surely is a rare gem in the rocks...next episode will tell everything to me :D |
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