Sword Art Online (light novel)
| Hello everybody. Disclaimer: This is by no means an attempt to start a flame war between those who hate and those who love the show. This is a genuine question I think both parties can agree with, so please, let's not make things get chaotic. Most (if not ALL) average joes I ask about SAO, tell me that they dropped the show either after Aincrad (first 14 episodes) or after season 1. Plenty stuck around for season 2, but barely anybody saw Ordinal Scale, and most people, even those who were hate-watching, didn't stick around for Alicization, let alone War of Underworld. Makes me wonder what chance in hell Unital Ring has to garner any amount of interest that Aincrad bolstered once upon a time. And it had me thinking, did we miss something along the way? Sword Art Online was (and marketed as) a show about people battling through a video game to survive and escape, where if they died in the game, they would die in real life. It's a simple premise, sure, but it had so much potential for drama, character conflicts, trauma, different political factions, etc. When that ended, many people felt like we didn't really get what we were promised, even Reki. That's why he made Progressive. Yet, instead of waiting to get Progressive, after Fairy Dance, we got a bunch of sequels that really started to feel corporate, like the writer knew full-well that there was no more story to tell, but he knew fans loved it, and A1-Pictures wouldn't let poor Reki go back to his family until he delivered on that hype. <--- EDIT: This last part is just a joke guys. Calm down. Gun Gale Online is so dissimilar to SAO that it literally had to invent an antagonist from SAO in order to give the viel of relevance. Ordinal Scale could have been a nice way to end SAO, but there were other things in the works. Alicization is so dissimilar to SAO, that Reki gave up on all pretenses for the show being about beating death-video-games at all, and just went full Isekai, and now, with Unital Ring, we're expecting Crisis on Infinite Games to somehow course correct this? These sequels feel like Fast and Furious movies. In the end, I don't see why. Kirito's character was complete by the end of ALO. He got his waifu and saved the day, and even said that Asuna coming back was the only thing left that would figuratively "bring him out of Aincrad". They even say that they "beat the final boss" (referring to Sugou) so what's the deal? There's no hint in season 1 for anything that happens in the 2nd seson or after, so it comes off as a dying franchise clinging to life-support by making up new storylines and retconning the old in the process. It doesn't feel like any kind of a cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. It feels like it's desperately clinging onto any reason to keep marching its dead corpse onward. What do you guys think? I'm curious. |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 30, 1:13 PM
As much as I like SAO, I agree with what you've said :) I always think that SAO is a wasted potential, because Aincrad Arc was so rushed and had some wasting time episodes like Yui episodes and detective one instead of taking time and stretching the arc to two or three anime seasons. The main attraction of SAO was VR MMORPG with the death risk and both the studio and the author chose to abandon it so soon. Thankfully there is SAO Progressive which is a redeemed Aincrad Arc but it's taking too long between movies, it should've been regular anime episodes instead |
 (っ◔◡◔)っ 𝓘 𝔀𝓲𝓼𝓱 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓪𝓵𝓵 𝓱𝓪𝓿𝓮 𝓪 𝔀𝓸𝓷𝓭𝓮𝓻𝓯𝓾𝓵 𝓭𝓪𝔂 ♥ |
Reply to Eckl3
I guess what you said is all pretty much true. But that's only part of the reason that it's still going. if you think a little bit about it, at one point kirito wanted to know a lot of the why. Why did Kayaba create the world? Why did he trap everyone else? and Where is the future of everything going? sure, it's deviated a lot from what it's supposed to regionally be, but I guess that's some more you could take away
| @Eckl3 Yeah, but that doesn't count, because it was a question/conflict invented by the later seasons. The first season only asked the question up until episode 14 when Kayaba gave his (not) answer. After that, it was assumed that beating Sugou meant "ending" it all. The question and conversations you're referring to were at the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3, both of which come off as the latter seasons coming up with a reason to exist which wasn't set up prior. |
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
Yeah, but that doesn't count, because it was a question/conflict invented by the later seasons. The first season only asked the question up until episode 14 when Kayaba gave his (not) answer. After that, it was assumed that beating Sugou meant "ending" it all. The question and conversations you're referring to were at the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3, both of which come off as the latter seasons coming up with a reason to exist which wasn't set up prior.
@Eckl3
Yeah, but that doesn't count, because it was a question/conflict invented by the later seasons. The first season only asked the question up until episode 14 when Kayaba gave his (not) answer. After that, it was assumed that beating Sugou meant "ending" it all. The question and conversations you're referring to were at the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3, both of which come off as the latter seasons coming up with a reason to exist which wasn't set up prior.
sure, but after kayaba gives him the seed, he wants to see how far the seed can go after he plants it. I think if you read in the LN, he finds out that the UW is an offshoot of the world tree that he planted.
| @Eckl3 That was all post-season 1. In season 1, he found out that the SEED was just a game engine, went to make games and that was it, happily ever after. At no point in that episode did he contemplate any further stories or unanswered questions. There was no mystery to the SEED, much less a mystery that could be used to set up the longest epilogue in fictional history. If Kirito simply wanted to see how far the SEED could go, he qould make DO with it. But we know all he wanted was to beat Aincrad from scratch with his friends and fam, which he began at the end of Fairy Dance. |
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
That was all post-season 1. In season 1, he found out that the SEED was just a game engine, went to make games and that was it, happily ever after. At no point in that episode did he contemplate any further stories or unanswered questions. There was no mystery to the SEED, much less a mystery that could be used to set up the longest epilogue in fictional history. If Kirito simply wanted to see how far the SEED could go, he qould make DO with it.
But we know all he wanted was to beat Aincrad from scratch with his friends and fam, which he began at the end of Fairy Dance.
@Eckl3
That was all post-season 1. In season 1, he found out that the SEED was just a game engine, went to make games and that was it, happily ever after. At no point in that episode did he contemplate any further stories or unanswered questions. There was no mystery to the SEED, much less a mystery that could be used to set up the longest epilogue in fictional history. If Kirito simply wanted to see how far the SEED could go, he qould make DO with it.
But we know all he wanted was to beat Aincrad from scratch with his friends and fam, which he began at the end of Fairy Dance.
sure, that's true but I mean, wouldn't you want to explore what kind of worlds could be created with the seed? sure, he might want to battle with the freida and fam. but I mean, seeing other places could be enticing too. also, you have to remember that a lot of it was written as a web novel waaaay before it became an LN and an anime, so a lot of it was pre-written already. Unitas Ring is supposed to be about piecing it all together. but I could be wrong. I don't know everything
| @Eckl3 We could explore new worlds in spin offs or just canon slice of lice arcs, like Excalibur. We don't need a brand new continuation of a story that ended long ago with brand new retconned plots and characters that (as it turns out) were "there all along". To answer your questionin earnest, I personally don't care about new worlds the SEED can create. For the purposes of this discussion, it's not about whether or not the seasons after the first are good ideas, it's in whether or not they're necessary ideas, if they're ideas which the first season's story and/or characters provide any basis for existing at all. If your sequels require an inorganic flow of events to keep the ship floating, then you should go back to the drawing board. This is why .our people just want the first season's plot, the thing we all came to SAO for in the first place. Good thong Progressive exists. As for your second point, yes, a lot of it was written ahead as web novels. That's absolutely true. Problem is they were written in the same inorganic was we see portrayed in the anime. Reki even said in the updated novel version, that the reason the sequs were written at all was because fans wanted more. They weren't written because Reki knew thay the story wasn't over and therefore needed more content. Fun fact: Alicization was Reki's really-for-real-this-time ending, but was changed by the publishers during thright novel's production because they wanted another sequel. The result was Unital Ring, a plot so silly that I'm genuinely interested in seeing how anyone manages to market this and get newcomers to watch it. |
| SAO actually redeemed itself with Alicization. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to Animaticide
"Alicization would have been great by itself if it had no ties to SAO" is what I thought when I watched it. Especially the cold open of WOTU, was particularly well written with the premise of starting off with a broken hero. All I could think was how I wished this was a completely new show with completely new characters.
The overall story is pretty stretched, that is true, but I think it's not too terrible of a plot to have the characters deal with the consequences that the creation of the first game left in the world, but it suffers from not being properly thought-out beforehand. A lot of the sequels would be 10x times better if they had been foreshadowed in some way since, like you mentioned, they have to keep pulling retcons out their asses just to keep to boat floating.
On that last note, there's already a lot present to justify some of them, but the writer just didn't think of them in the right moments. The whole plot of Alicization SHOULD have been kickstarted by the revelation that Yui -an already functioning, independant AGI entity- exists as one by-product of the game, NOT AFTER THE WHOLE THING HAS ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED. That would have made proper use of an important plot point from Aincrad and justify the main characters' involvement in the whole thing instead of inventing yet-another off-screen villain we never saw to get the ball rolling.
The only way out I see now is to completely finish remaking the first season with all the proper build-up and foreshadowing inserted in and ditch the original as canon. It wouldn't make up for the lack of preparation and current resentment fans already have, but it would make the show and its sequels more digestable for newcomming audiences moving forward (since it looks like they are gonna keep milking this for years)
The overall story is pretty stretched, that is true, but I think it's not too terrible of a plot to have the characters deal with the consequences that the creation of the first game left in the world, but it suffers from not being properly thought-out beforehand. A lot of the sequels would be 10x times better if they had been foreshadowed in some way since, like you mentioned, they have to keep pulling retcons out their asses just to keep to boat floating.
On that last note, there's already a lot present to justify some of them, but the writer just didn't think of them in the right moments. The whole plot of Alicization SHOULD have been kickstarted by the revelation that Yui -an already functioning, independant AGI entity- exists as one by-product of the game, NOT AFTER THE WHOLE THING HAS ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED. That would have made proper use of an important plot point from Aincrad and justify the main characters' involvement in the whole thing instead of inventing yet-another off-screen villain we never saw to get the ball rolling.
The only way out I see now is to completely finish remaking the first season with all the proper build-up and foreshadowing inserted in and ditch the original as canon. It wouldn't make up for the lack of preparation and current resentment fans already have, but it would make the show and its sequels more digestable for newcomming audiences moving forward (since it looks like they are gonna keep milking this for years)
| @Animaticide I completely agree with this. I've talked to many friends about this as extensively as well. The overall concept of Alicization is great, yet so disconnected from Sword Art that it has no business taking place in the same universe as it. Should have just been it's own thing. |
| I appreciate all of the responses to this thread, especially from the fans of SAO. Let me clarify so that things can stay on topic, and so that you can better grasp the question at hand. You can like all of SAO, even after season 1. You can even hold them in high regard and say that they were great stories. But that's not what's being discussed. We're talking about how all of them fit (or don't) in the grand scheme. Sword Art Online was never a story about (nor meant to be a story about) a young man being a government pawn for mass-murdering and/or world-ending conflicts which have gone full Isekai/Cyberspace/Mission Impossible. It was an MMO JRPG turned death game. You can love everything that happens after season 1 and still acknowledge the issue here. An organic story wouldn't have this problem because all of its puzzle pieces are structured to lead to one grand point. SAO's first season was designed to end at episode 25, and without the power of hindsight, we can't look at anything there and assume what's happening now would come to pass in any way shape or form. SAO now feels like the show that won't kick the bucket no matter how inorganic its plots are. This means characters, storylines and retconned plotlines and even characters, have to be used in order to make new stories. SAO used to be about a death game. NOW, it's trying so hard to be everything, that it ended up becoming nothing. What even is SAO anymore? |
Reply to Rathifiend99
Hango-Man said:
I appreciate all of the responses to this thread, especially from the fans of SAO. Let me clarify so that things can stay on topic, and so that you can better grasp the question at hand.
You can like all of SAO, even after season 1. You can even hold them in high regard and say that they were great stories. But that's not what's being discussed. We're talking about how all of them fit (or don't) in the grand scheme.
Sword Art Online was never a story about (nor meant to be a story about) a young man being a government pawn for mass-murdering and/or world-ending conflicts which have gone full Isekai/Cyberspace/Mission Impossible. It was an MMO JRPG turned death game. You can love everything that happens after season 1 and still acknowledge the issue here.
An organic story wouldn't have this problem because all of its puzzle pieces are structured to lead to one grand point. SAO's first season was designed to end at episode 25, and without the power of hindsight, we can't look at anything there and assume what's happening now would come to pass in any way shape or form. SAO now feels like the show that won't kick the bucket no matter how inorganic its plots are. This means characters, storylines and retconned plotlines and even characters, have to be used in order to make new stories. SAO used to be about a death game. NOW, it's trying so hard to be everything, that it ended up becoming nothing.
What even is SAO anymore?
I appreciate all of the responses to this thread, especially from the fans of SAO. Let me clarify so that things can stay on topic, and so that you can better grasp the question at hand.
You can like all of SAO, even after season 1. You can even hold them in high regard and say that they were great stories. But that's not what's being discussed. We're talking about how all of them fit (or don't) in the grand scheme.
Sword Art Online was never a story about (nor meant to be a story about) a young man being a government pawn for mass-murdering and/or world-ending conflicts which have gone full Isekai/Cyberspace/Mission Impossible. It was an MMO JRPG turned death game. You can love everything that happens after season 1 and still acknowledge the issue here.
An organic story wouldn't have this problem because all of its puzzle pieces are structured to lead to one grand point. SAO's first season was designed to end at episode 25, and without the power of hindsight, we can't look at anything there and assume what's happening now would come to pass in any way shape or form. SAO now feels like the show that won't kick the bucket no matter how inorganic its plots are. This means characters, storylines and retconned plotlines and even characters, have to be used in order to make new stories. SAO used to be about a death game. NOW, it's trying so hard to be everything, that it ended up becoming nothing.
What even is SAO anymore?
SAO was never about a VR death game. It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them. The whole death game thing was simply a subplot in the Aincrad arc.
There is a good post on r/swordartonline on this exact topic. If you want to check it out, search for u/Spockies. It should be the first post on the SAO subreddit.
| @Rathifiend99 In the context of having a story with a cohesive ending, you're completely missing the point. First of all, that conflict you're referring to was not present in season 1 at all, and what little bit of it was present (such as Kirito not being able to fully escape SAO until he saved Asuna) was resolved by the end of it. Anything remotely related to that was invented by season 2 and beyond that. Second (and this is most important) this is irrelevant to the story and characters. You can't continue a story with a theme and "conflict" in and of itself in a vacuum. it needs a plot to carry it along, and in terms of this, it's all invented by the writer as he goes along. Season 2 is the perfect example of this, as Reki literally had to invent a character who was in Kirito's past all along who was never mentioned, despite the fact that the "trauma" he gave Kirito never affected him or was even remotely alluded to in season 1. So not only does the plot take a hit, but the characters as well, since their pasts have to be retconned just to give the veneer that there's more story to tell. Saying that "It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them." doesn't deal with the issue. SAO is currently no different from Disney Star Wars, Prison Break, Ben 10 Omniverse, The Legend of Korra, Bayformers, Dragon Ball Super, etc, in terms of literally making things up as the plot goes just to inorganically pump out more sequels. |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 28, 6:42 PM
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Rathifiend99
In the context of having a story with a cohesive ending, you're completely missing the point. First of all, that conflict you're referring to was not present in season 1 at all, and what little bit of it was present (such as Kirito not being able to fully escape SAO until he saved Asuna) was resolved by the end of it. Anything remotely related to that was invented by season 2 and beyond that.
Second (and this is most important) this is irrelevant to the story and characters. You can't continue a story with a theme and "conflict" in and of itself in a vacuum. it needs a plot to carry it along, and in terms of this, it's all invented by the writer as he goes along. Season 2 is the perfect example of this, as Reki literally had to invent a character who was in Kirito's past all along who was never mentioned, despite the fact that the "trauma" he gave Kirito never affected him or was even remotely alluded to in season 1. So not only does the plot take a hit, but the characters as well, since their pasts have to be retconned just to give the veneer that there's more story to tell. Saying that "It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them." doesn't deal with the issue. SAO is currently no different from Disney Star Wars, Prison Break, Ben 10 Omniverse, The Legend of Korra, Bayformers, Dragon Ball Super, etc, in terms of literally making things up as the plot goes just to inorganically pump out more sequels.
@Rathifiend99
In the context of having a story with a cohesive ending, you're completely missing the point. First of all, that conflict you're referring to was not present in season 1 at all, and what little bit of it was present (such as Kirito not being able to fully escape SAO until he saved Asuna) was resolved by the end of it. Anything remotely related to that was invented by season 2 and beyond that.
Second (and this is most important) this is irrelevant to the story and characters. You can't continue a story with a theme and "conflict" in and of itself in a vacuum. it needs a plot to carry it along, and in terms of this, it's all invented by the writer as he goes along. Season 2 is the perfect example of this, as Reki literally had to invent a character who was in Kirito's past all along who was never mentioned, despite the fact that the "trauma" he gave Kirito never affected him or was even remotely alluded to in season 1. So not only does the plot take a hit, but the characters as well, since their pasts have to be retconned just to give the veneer that there's more story to tell. Saying that "It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them." doesn't deal with the issue. SAO is currently no different from Disney Star Wars, Prison Break, Ben 10 Omniverse, The Legend of Korra, Bayformers, Dragon Ball Super, etc, in terms of literally making things up as the plot goes just to inorganically pump out more sequels.
actually, that was actually in season 1. If you remember, when they got the mirrors as gifts and transformed them, he looked down at one point and saw blood from a cut that he got which shouldn't shouldn't and then the difference between what the game should be, an rpg and people taking it too far, blurring reality from a game. even though they knew people were actually going to die, the pkers still would kill people.
Sure, but I mean, if you're the writer, you can make up whatever you want. it doesn't always have to be cohesive and make sense. plus, the dude from season 2 being made up is logical though. not everyone from that guild is getting caught and it goes back the the theme of blurring reality from VR. he wanted to kill people just like in SAO, so that's what he did. plus, during the game, kirito was so fixed on the end part and getting out that he didn't entirely stop to think about it. but I mean, some people would have some trauma from the game at some point and some people's would be different from others. that's why they went to a returnee school. idk if there is such thing as latent trauma, but that's what I would categorize it as because he didn't think about it because he didn't see that guild during or after, so it kind of reminded him of part of the bad times.
Lastly, (and a little off topic, sorry) it doesn't compare to some of them as such like Star Wars. even though SAO has sequels that make little sense like GGO, in the end, they are going to get resolved in UR. Unlike in Star Wars where the sequels are just so garbage and barely got resolved in some manner. Got people that came out of nowhere and literally had not point to the plot at all (looking at you rose tico), at least SAO, had some sense of characters that contributed some (even if some are part of kiritos harem) most do contribute in some way or another
sorry, this turned into more of a rant
| @Eckl3 That was just to show that the game was realistic, to help emphasize that it couldn't be treated like a fun little adventure anymore. That's why he said "If I die in the game, I'll die in real life!" and why the SAO novel's tagline is "Sword Art Online is a game, but it isn't something you play." "Sure, but I mean, if you're the writer, you can make up whatever you want. it doesn't always have to be cohesive and make sense." Yes it does and no you cannot. Bad writing and inorganic storytelling is bad writing and inorganic storytelling. If you are the writer, you can do whatever you want, and that decision becomes bad writing if it's bad. It's simple. The only information we had about Laughing Coffin was that they were around and then taken out off screen. The details of that weren't even tolf to us in the anime, but rather in the novel, narrating an event we never saw. Does it make sense that some members would still be around despite what happened, even though that was significant stuff we sadly never saw? Of course. But Kirito having an arch rival who scred him for life is what's in question here. The guy was traumatized for killing people, then killed Kuradeel without ever contemplating what he did. Not even Asuna said something like "You wanna talk about it. It reminded me of the pain you felt that day, at the Laughing Coffin raid." or anything like that. It's almost like Reki just made it up, and came up with retroactive excuses for why it never came up beforehand. The theme you mention is again, the show's problem. If I come into your house and make a mess, I can't pat myself on the back for cleaning it up. That's all post-season 1 SAO does. It invents conflicts and rewards itself for resolving them. Moreover, again, the conflict you speak of was still resolved. You wanna argue there was kind of alure to a "blur" between the real world and the virtual in season 1, even though this literally only comes up when Asuna literally asks the question in the first episode of season 2? Fine. But that was resolved by the end of season 1. Kirito finally came back. He solved all his problems, resolved all his "issues" adn saved the day. There was no more conflict left to eplore or resolve. So season 2 came up with "We don't know why Kayaba did X and we need to find out" and "What's the difference between the real world and the virtual?" in order to excuse Reki inventing more retcons. Again, Reki said it himself that he only wrote the sequels cuz fans wanted more, NOT because there was actualy a need for mroe story to tell. As a matter of fact, there si almost (dare I say no) difference between that and Disney Wars. George Lucas said that bringing "balance" to the Force meant destroying the Sith. Disney said that there always has to be light to meet strong dark, and vice versa. That's a butchering of the old canon just to justify an endless array of sequels, all goign nowhere. As for Unital Ring revolving the characters and plots, that's what War of Underworld was SUPPOSED to do, but the editors made him write it to lead into Unital Ring, what is honestly the silliest premises for a story I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true, it will be like Gohan "resolving his character" for the 14,000,605th time in the same way, again. Why should I care? Why should anyone care? Whywould anyone care? Well, most people didn't even watch WoU, so I guess I shouldn't ask that last part. |
| Pretty sure the Gun Gale novels were around before the first season aired. As much as I agree with some of your opinions, it's just not possible that it was A-1 pressuring him to continue writing. Even Alicization was well underway at the time the Anime came out. |
OchimushaApr 28, 9:50 PM
 |
Reply to Rathifiend99
Hango-Man said:
@Rathifiend99
In the context of having a story with a cohesive ending, you're completely missing the point. First of all, that conflict you're referring to was not present in season 1 at all, and what little bit of it was present (such as Kirito not being able to fully escape SAO until he saved Asuna) was resolved by the end of it. Anything remotely related to that was invented by season 2 and beyond that.
Second (and this is most important) this is irrelevant to the story and characters. You can't continue a story with a theme and "conflict" in and of itself in a vacuum. it needs a plot to carry it along, and in terms of this, it's all invented by the writer as he goes along. Season 2 is the perfect example of this, as Reki literally had to invent a character who was in Kirito's past all along who was never mentioned, despite the fact that the "trauma" he gave Kirito never affected him or was even remotely alluded to in season 1. So not only does the plot take a hit, but the characters as well, since their pasts have to be retconned just to give the veneer that there's more story to tell. Saying that "It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them." doesn't deal with the issue. SAO is currently no different from Disney Star Wars, Prison Break, Ben 10 Omniverse, The Legend of Korra, Bayformers, Dragon Ball Super, etc, in terms of literally making things up as the plot goes just to inorganically pump out more sequels.
@Rathifiend99
In the context of having a story with a cohesive ending, you're completely missing the point. First of all, that conflict you're referring to was not present in season 1 at all, and what little bit of it was present (such as Kirito not being able to fully escape SAO until he saved Asuna) was resolved by the end of it. Anything remotely related to that was invented by season 2 and beyond that.
Second (and this is most important) this is irrelevant to the story and characters. You can't continue a story with a theme and "conflict" in and of itself in a vacuum. it needs a plot to carry it along, and in terms of this, it's all invented by the writer as he goes along. Season 2 is the perfect example of this, as Reki literally had to invent a character who was in Kirito's past all along who was never mentioned, despite the fact that the "trauma" he gave Kirito never affected him or was even remotely alluded to in season 1. So not only does the plot take a hit, but the characters as well, since their pasts have to be retconned just to give the veneer that there's more story to tell. Saying that "It was about how the VR world affects the real world while increasingly blurring the lines between them." doesn't deal with the issue. SAO is currently no different from Disney Star Wars, Prison Break, Ben 10 Omniverse, The Legend of Korra, Bayformers, Dragon Ball Super, etc, in terms of literally making things up as the plot goes just to inorganically pump out more sequels.
Did you even bother reading the reddit post I referred to? It does a deep dive into exactly what the theme is that ties everything together, and that theme was present from the start.
Reki himself has stated many times that SAO was never going to be just a "VR death game." The whole thing was a deep dive into the psychological aspects of VR and what happens when the line blurs with reality.
As for you saying Death Gun was made up just to continue the story, that is completely false. He appeared in episode 6 of the first season, but under the name XaXa (aka Red-Eyed XaXa). And yes, Kirito's trauma from Laughing Coffin was touched on a few times in season 1. You were just too caught up in the "VR death game" aspect to pay attention to the actual story being told.
| @Rathifiend99 "Reki himself has stated many times that SAO was never going to be just a "VR death game." " Reki said something interesting in the Afterword to his 2nd novel. "After publishing the first volume, I received a great many responses wondering how the story could continue after an ending like that. After all, the game was beaten and the world came crashing down. I myself realized that there were virtually no elements of the story that might continue from there. So here’s the follow-up: a retread back in time. And not only that, a collection of sub-stories. I’m truly sorry for this…" Even he knows it. Now of course, he may have his ideas of how it can continue NOW that he got himself into this mess, but again, you aren't addressing what I said about how themes and conflicts need characters and a cohesive plot. If you retcon it as you go, you scerw with the themes and all of the above. And Death Gun didn't appear in episode 6 in any significant sense. He showed up, we learned literally nothing at all about him any way, shape or form, then he disappeared from the plot until Retconville decided it was time to bring him back in time. You could have told me that was Bob the Mailman who died by stepping on a bunch of Legos, and that would have been more reasonable than telling us that he was the dark specter of Kirito's past we never heard of before.p |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 28, 10:53 PM
Reply to Ochimusha
Pretty sure the Gun Gale novels were around before the first season aired. As much as I agree with some of your opinions, it's just not possible that it was A-1 pressuring him to continue writing.
Even Alicization was well underway at the time the Anime came out.
Even Alicization was well underway at the time the Anime came out.
| @Ochimusha Well the part about Reki being pressured was mostly just a joke. Though he did originally plan for Alicization/WoU to be where it ended. And while yes, all of this material was written beforehand, evidently, it wasn't written to flow together. EDIT: Also I think it's absolutely likely that Reki got his stuff published and still just wanted to focus on Progressive, but the studio or publishers had other plans. I don't claim to know, and I may never know. That's just how all of it feels. |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 28, 10:06 PM
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
That was just to show that the game was realistic, to help emphasize that it couldn't be treated like a fun little adventure anymore. That's why he said "If I die in the game, I'll die in real life!" and why the SAO novel's tagline is "Sword Art Online is a game, but it isn't something you play."
"Sure, but I mean, if you're the writer, you can make up whatever you want. it doesn't always have to be cohesive and make sense."
Yes it does and no you cannot. Bad writing and inorganic storytelling is bad writing and inorganic storytelling. If you are the writer, you can do whatever you want, and that decision becomes bad writing if it's bad. It's simple.
The only information we had about Laughing Coffin was that they were around and then taken out off screen. The details of that weren't even tolf to us in the anime, but rather in the novel, narrating an event we never saw. Does it make sense that some members would still be around despite what happened, even though that was significant stuff we sadly never saw? Of course. But Kirito having an arch rival who scred him for life is what's in question here. The guy was traumatized for killing people, then killed Kuradeel without ever contemplating what he did. Not even Asuna said something like "You wanna talk about it. It reminded me of the pain you felt that day, at the Laughing Coffin raid." or anything like that. It's almost like Reki just made it up, and came up with retroactive excuses for why it never came up beforehand.
The theme you mention is again, the show's problem. If I come into your house and make a mess, I can't pat myself on the back for cleaning it up. That's all post-season 1 SAO does. It invents conflicts and rewards itself for resolving them. Moreover, again, the conflict you speak of was still resolved. You wanna argue there was kind of alure to a "blur" between the real world and the virtual in season 1, even though this literally only comes up when Asuna literally asks the question in the first episode of season 2? Fine. But that was resolved by the end of season 1. Kirito finally came back. He solved all his problems, resolved all his "issues" adn saved the day. There was no more conflict left to eplore or resolve. So season 2 came up with "We don't know why Kayaba did X and we need to find out" and "What's the difference between the real world and the virtual?" in order to excuse Reki inventing more retcons.
Again, Reki said it himself that he only wrote the sequels cuz fans wanted more, NOT because there was actualy a need for mroe story to tell.
As a matter of fact, there si almost (dare I say no) difference between that and Disney Wars. George Lucas said that bringing "balance" to the Force meant destroying the Sith. Disney said that there always has to be light to meet strong dark, and vice versa. That's a butchering of the old canon just to justify an endless array of sequels, all goign nowhere.
As for Unital Ring revolving the characters and plots, that's what War of Underworld was SUPPOSED to do, but the editors made him write it to lead into Unital Ring, what is honestly the silliest premises for a story I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true, it will be like Gohan "resolving his character" for the 14,000,605th time in the same way, again. Why should I care? Why should anyone care? Whywould anyone care?
Well, most people didn't even watch WoU, so I guess I shouldn't ask that last part.
@Eckl3
That was just to show that the game was realistic, to help emphasize that it couldn't be treated like a fun little adventure anymore. That's why he said "If I die in the game, I'll die in real life!" and why the SAO novel's tagline is "Sword Art Online is a game, but it isn't something you play."
"Sure, but I mean, if you're the writer, you can make up whatever you want. it doesn't always have to be cohesive and make sense."
Yes it does and no you cannot. Bad writing and inorganic storytelling is bad writing and inorganic storytelling. If you are the writer, you can do whatever you want, and that decision becomes bad writing if it's bad. It's simple.
The only information we had about Laughing Coffin was that they were around and then taken out off screen. The details of that weren't even tolf to us in the anime, but rather in the novel, narrating an event we never saw. Does it make sense that some members would still be around despite what happened, even though that was significant stuff we sadly never saw? Of course. But Kirito having an arch rival who scred him for life is what's in question here. The guy was traumatized for killing people, then killed Kuradeel without ever contemplating what he did. Not even Asuna said something like "You wanna talk about it. It reminded me of the pain you felt that day, at the Laughing Coffin raid." or anything like that. It's almost like Reki just made it up, and came up with retroactive excuses for why it never came up beforehand.
The theme you mention is again, the show's problem. If I come into your house and make a mess, I can't pat myself on the back for cleaning it up. That's all post-season 1 SAO does. It invents conflicts and rewards itself for resolving them. Moreover, again, the conflict you speak of was still resolved. You wanna argue there was kind of alure to a "blur" between the real world and the virtual in season 1, even though this literally only comes up when Asuna literally asks the question in the first episode of season 2? Fine. But that was resolved by the end of season 1. Kirito finally came back. He solved all his problems, resolved all his "issues" adn saved the day. There was no more conflict left to eplore or resolve. So season 2 came up with "We don't know why Kayaba did X and we need to find out" and "What's the difference between the real world and the virtual?" in order to excuse Reki inventing more retcons.
Again, Reki said it himself that he only wrote the sequels cuz fans wanted more, NOT because there was actualy a need for mroe story to tell.
As a matter of fact, there si almost (dare I say no) difference between that and Disney Wars. George Lucas said that bringing "balance" to the Force meant destroying the Sith. Disney said that there always has to be light to meet strong dark, and vice versa. That's a butchering of the old canon just to justify an endless array of sequels, all goign nowhere.
As for Unital Ring revolving the characters and plots, that's what War of Underworld was SUPPOSED to do, but the editors made him write it to lead into Unital Ring, what is honestly the silliest premises for a story I've ever seen. Even if what you say is true, it will be like Gohan "resolving his character" for the 14,000,605th time in the same way, again. Why should I care? Why should anyone care? Whywould anyone care?
Well, most people didn't even watch WoU, so I guess I shouldn't ask that last part.
Putting aside all of the rest. It all does tie back to the part of blurring and it's not just in season 1 where it ends. Or season 2 for that matter. Do you remember the scene I'm WoU or did you not watch it? The scene where all the friends go into ALO and ask people to convert. Someone shouted that they shouldn't bring the real world into a virtual world and what not. Dint you remember she said that for the people of SAO and a lot of VR games, that defining a clear border between what is reality and what is VR is hard and that for them, that reality is where they are. It goes back to a theme of blurring things together and not entirely knowing where the difference is, especially for the people of the SAO incident. and honestly, at the end of season 1, I definitely wanted to know why Kayaba did what he did because he never gave a clear defined answer for why he made it a death game. I want to find out if he has a conclusion for UR or not. I, at least, am interested.
| @Eckl3 It's as I said already, man. You can have a theme and set stuff up, and even change the status quo. I'm all for that, and some of the greatest storytelling involves setting up what seems like the true, status quo, only to flip it and reveal deeper layers of storytelling we never thought the writer was gonna tackle. An obvious example of this is Attack on Titan making us think it was a binary battle between humanity and giant monsters, only for the first season and later seasons to gradually pull back the curtain and answer the mysteries in a way that completely changed the status quo. The plot, story and characters all told and expressed the theme Isayama wanted to convey by setting up the payoffs of the later seasons, specifically the ending of season 3. The problem with SAO is that Reki didn't set it up, and he himself admitted as much in novel 02. Season 2 gave rise for everything else after to exist, but season 1 literally does indeed stand on its own. The "blur" between the real and the virtual world was never a conflict in seaon 1 that needed to be resolved, and what little bit of it was a conflict you could argue for, was resolved by the end. SAO after the first season is so blatantly inorganic that it lies to the audience about Kayaba's true motivations for creating SAO, as though any killing thousands of people is some kind of setup or an Endgame level threat. EDIT: If you're fine with this, more power to you. I'm not trying to make people hate SAO. Hopefully however, one day, you'll come to understand why so many people, fans included, just don't care anymore, even to hate watch it. To us, SAO feels like a driver who knows how to drive correctly, but hasn't got the slightest idea where he's going. Just driving, turning, drifting aimlessly forever and ever. As evidenced by the numbers shown on this very website, most people didn't bother making it this far in. EDIT OVER Oh, and yes, I did see that scene from WoW you're referring to. I did watch all of the show. And I vehemently hate that scene with a burning passion. But since this thread isn't supposed to be about the quality of SAO (but rather its direction and organic storytelling) I'm gonna leave that rant for another day. |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 29, 3:55 PM
| Your franchise comment is correct. However, it is important to remember this: The criticism of SAO only exists in the anime audience in countries outside the Far East. It is very well liked in the Far East countries, especially in Japan. |
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
It's as I said already, man. You can have a theme and set stuff up, and even change the status quo. I'm all for that, and some of the greatest storytelling involves setting up what seems like the true, status quo, only to flip it and reveal deeper layers of storytelling we never thought the writer was gonna tackle. An obvious example of this is Attack on Titan making us think it was a binary battle between humanity and giant monsters, only for the first season and later seasons to gradually pull back the curtain and answer the mysteries in a way that completely changed the status quo. The plot, story and characters all told and expressed the theme Isayama wanted to convey by setting up the payoffs of the later seasons, specifically the ending of season 3.
The problem with SAO is that Reki didn't set it up, and he himself admitted as much in novel 02. Season 2 gave rise for everything else after to exist, but season 1 literally does indeed stand on its own. The "blur" between the real and the virtual world was never a conflict in seaon 1 that needed to be resolved, and what little bit of it was a conflict you could argue for, was resolved by the end. SAO after the first season is so blatantly inorganic that it lies to the audience about Kayaba's true motivations for creating SAO, as though any killing thousands of people is some kind of setup or an Endgame level threat.
EDIT:
If you're fine with this, more power to you. I'm not trying to make people hate SAO. Hopefully however, one day, you'll come to understand why so many people, fans included, just don't care anymore, even to hate watch it. To us, SAO feels like a driver who knows how to drive correctly, but hasn't got the slightest idea where he's going. Just driving, turning, drifting aimlessly forever and ever. As evidenced by the numbers shown on this very website, most people didn't bother making it this far in.
EDIT OVER
Oh, and yes, I did see that scene from WoW you're referring to. I did watch all of the show. And I vehemently hate that scene with a burning passion. But since this thread isn't supposed to be about the quality of SAO (but rather its direction and organic storytelling) I'm gonna leave that rant for another day.
@Eckl3
It's as I said already, man. You can have a theme and set stuff up, and even change the status quo. I'm all for that, and some of the greatest storytelling involves setting up what seems like the true, status quo, only to flip it and reveal deeper layers of storytelling we never thought the writer was gonna tackle. An obvious example of this is Attack on Titan making us think it was a binary battle between humanity and giant monsters, only for the first season and later seasons to gradually pull back the curtain and answer the mysteries in a way that completely changed the status quo. The plot, story and characters all told and expressed the theme Isayama wanted to convey by setting up the payoffs of the later seasons, specifically the ending of season 3.
The problem with SAO is that Reki didn't set it up, and he himself admitted as much in novel 02. Season 2 gave rise for everything else after to exist, but season 1 literally does indeed stand on its own. The "blur" between the real and the virtual world was never a conflict in seaon 1 that needed to be resolved, and what little bit of it was a conflict you could argue for, was resolved by the end. SAO after the first season is so blatantly inorganic that it lies to the audience about Kayaba's true motivations for creating SAO, as though any killing thousands of people is some kind of setup or an Endgame level threat.
EDIT:
If you're fine with this, more power to you. I'm not trying to make people hate SAO. Hopefully however, one day, you'll come to understand why so many people, fans included, just don't care anymore, even to hate watch it. To us, SAO feels like a driver who knows how to drive correctly, but hasn't got the slightest idea where he's going. Just driving, turning, drifting aimlessly forever and ever. As evidenced by the numbers shown on this very website, most people didn't bother making it this far in.
EDIT OVER
Oh, and yes, I did see that scene from WoW you're referring to. I did watch all of the show. And I vehemently hate that scene with a burning passion. But since this thread isn't supposed to be about the quality of SAO (but rather its direction and organic storytelling) I'm gonna leave that rant for another day.
first of all. never seen AOT (haven't or ever going to), so that is a bad example but I get the point.
At the end of the novel 2, it also says that he himself wanted to go back (with the support of fans) and take a look at mid level. it also says that he would want to be put in a position like that where he could show off stuff too. Maybe season 1 doesn't directly tie into the story with season 2, sure. maybe the tie makes no sense, ok. but at least everything after makes some sort of sense. And if you read the LNs (I don't know if you do), but it says that it will all tie back to SAO at some point. Maybe Kayaba had to kill many people just to create something good. I don't know! you could also say that we are taking a trip through part of kiritos life. Maybe? again, I don't know. Maybe he wanted to write to see where Kirito would eventually end up. one more time, IDK! But, I feel with the UR supposedly being the final chapter, we might get some sort of conclusion. We can always hope. (well, maybe just me) Maybe it won't make sense. (the dude had poor writing and maybe it doesn't make sense, get over it) Or it could at the end. IMO, that's that's fun part of an ongoing series. you just have to wait.
side note: Most people on website doesn't count for anything. it might account for maybe like a fraction of the percentage of people, so don't use those numbers to prove a point at all. and also, I would honestly like to know why you don't like that scene, I really liked the scene and as someone who feels like that most of the time, (reality being where you are), I felt that scene ngl
| @Eckl3 I didn't know if you saw AoT. I can still use it as an example, lol. It absolutely works as a comparison. If the shoe fits, I use it, even if you don't know about it. I could explain in detail why it works with examples and everything, but this thread has nothing to do with it, and I don't wanna spoil it for others. The quote I provided from Reki was all he said in regards to going back. What he said was that he wanted to explore more of what was going on in Aincrad, things he didn't get a chance to explore during the first novel. And the reason for this decision (according to him) is explicitly because he didn't see any threads left that could lead to another story. I don't think you understand my issue with Kayaba's motives here. The show (and especially the novel) both imply that the answer was given. Nobody was confused about it, and Kirito "understood" what was said. The idea that there was more to it only came up with the World SEED, and that turned out to be a game engine and led to a happily ever after. Season 2 (and mostly 3) can come along and say that we literally have no idea why that happened, but there's no reason to take that seriously when there was no precedent for that. If they actually said that he had to kill people to save them, whether or not that makes a lick of sense, it would still be a retcon, and egregious one at that. It would be akin to Palpatine’s “Final Solution” in Rise of Skywalker even. As for everything else you said, as I said in the very beginning, it ultimately changes very little. You can change the status quo of your story naturally and that's fine. You can evolve it into something more and keep the core themes intact. You cannot do that by lying to the audience. No matter how much fans wanna fight the tide on this, SAO is about a death game, and so if you don't naturally transition it into being something else, then it instead becomes a show that doesn't know what it wants to be. You can't even make the claim that everything is gonna "go back to Aincrad" because nothing has been coming from Aincrad beyond Retconville. That's not how you build a story. That's how you throw blocks in a pile hoping some kind of structure will come of it eventually. So little of the current story has anything to do with Aincrad, to the point that it's almost a joke to even call it "Sword Art Online". That's why there are so many retcons to make up for it. Moreover, so much of SAO after Fairy Dance is the same old "If I die in the game, I X!" or even the same "100 floors" thing, like what was done in Alicization, which didn't even matter because they casually walked through most of the floors with ease. Phantom Bullet: "If I die in the game, a murderer may be over my bed to inject me with poison at the same time so that I'll die in real life!" Ordinal Scale: "If I die in the game, I'll lose my memories... or just get fried!" Alicization: No wait, this show didn't even bother coming up with a twist, since it's just an Isekai where death has an obvious consequence. War of Underworld: "If I die in the game, there's a chance that I might lose my account!" Unital Ring: "If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it!" You can see the point. SAO is in this weird spot where the status quo is both changing so far from Aincrad that it's unrecognizable, and at the same time, it wants so badly to be Aincrad by trying desperately to recapture its magic. The whole reason death in a video game was a cool idea is because a video game is something you play. It's not something where you're supposed to worry about consequences. So to take that concept and turn it into a death game you're trapped in, is cool. Trying to do it over and over again in different ways is just lame. On that note, I can't really go into detail with my issues with that scene from WoU because I would have to unpack so many "themes" SAO fans hold dear, like Kirito's speech to Leafa about how actions in a video game are just as significant as real life back in ALO. These are all things I find unbearably dumb. But there were two things I found hilarious about the whole situation, and that was that there even was so much drama about losing your account to help people not getting slaughtered, and that the speech wanted us to feel bad for all the pain and suffering SAO survivors have gone through ever since they escaped the game, even though .02% of it was ever shown to us. These guys were happy-go-lucky all after SAO, yet that scene almost entirely hinged on us feeling as though they're risking their lives (are they tho?) to go and fight in spite of their trauma we never saw. EDIT: Oh, and as for me using MAL numbers, I know they aren't definitive. Most people who watch anime don't have a MAL account, just like most people who watch movies don't have an IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes account. It's all about the Law of Average. The numbers on this site reflect an average number of people who share their opinions from many parts of the world, and so while most people love SAO (as most people love mostly anything) the amount of them who watched far ahead is still relatively reflected by numbers on aggregate sites like this, and (anecdotally) by the fact that most people who are asked about how much SAO (if any) they watched, say that they only watched season 1, and didn't watch anything after that, or could barely keep going after that. They weren't given reason to tthink there was more in the mystery box, or that there was more behind the curtain. They came for Aincrad, and couldn't be bothered for much more. |
Jason-SkyrunnerApr 30, 7:30 AM
Reply to BruhMojo
the ggo novels were most likely already out, so reki wasn't pressured to make up something out of thin air. SAO makes them money and is pretty popular, so it wouldn't make any sense to stop adating the novels like most other anime Ln adaptations.
| @BruhMojo As I've said already, the comment about him being pressured was mostly just a joke. |
Reply to official_brown
I’m pretty sure SAO is beyond the game and is basically the kickstarter to what life would be like with full VR/AR tech. It’s moved on from one singular game to basically life in their world. The world seed is basically the crux of the entire plot. Without that, anything past S1 would not exist.
I like the story, I don’t like how anytime someone wants to talk about SAO they have to put a disclaimer. I get it’s not the best story ever crafted (neither is it trying to be), but the hate it get is egregious lol
I like the story, I don’t like how anytime someone wants to talk about SAO they have to put a disclaimer. I get it’s not the best story ever crafted (neither is it trying to be), but the hate it get is egregious lol
| @official_brown That sounds like a setup for a slice of life drama show where characters recover from their trauma and have fun playing games. Again, the rest of the show exists in part because of the SEED. But the SEED in and of itself did not start any of the conflicts, retcons did. The seed by itself could only lead to fun, as was almost explicitly stated by the end of season 1. And hoenstly, I would have been down for a slice of life drama show about SAO survivors recovering from being trapped in a death game. That's not what we got. As much as fans like to say that's what the show is really about, it hasn't been about that since Ordinal Scale, and THAT was just barely. |
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
I didn't know if you saw AoT. I can still use it as an example, lol. It absolutely works as a comparison. If the shoe fits, I use it, even if you don't know about it. I could explain in detail why it works with examples and everything, but this thread has nothing to do with it, and I don't wanna spoil it for others.
The quote I provided from Reki was all he said in regards to going back. What he said was that he wanted to explore more of what was going on in Aincrad, things he didn't get a chance to explore during the first novel. And the reason for this decision (according to him) is explicitly because he didn't see any threads left that could lead to another story.
I don't think you understand my issue with Kayaba's motives here. The show (and especially the novel) both imply that the answer was given. Nobody was confused about it, and Kirito "understood" what was said. The idea that there was more to it only came up with the World SEED, and that turned out to be a game engine and led to a happily ever after. Season 2 (and mostly 3) can come along and say that we literally have no idea why that happened, but there's no reason to take that seriously when there was no precedent for that. If they actually said that he had to kill people to save them, whether or not that makes a lick of sense, it would still be a retcon, and egregious one at that. It would be akin to Palpatine’s “Final Solution” in Rise of Skywalker even.
As for everything else you said, as I said in the very beginning, it ultimately changes very little. You can change the status quo of your story naturally and that's fine. You can evolve it into something more and keep the core themes intact. You cannot do that by lying to the audience. No matter how much fans wanna fight the tide on this, SAO is about a death game, and so if you don't naturally transition it into being something else, then it instead becomes a show that doesn't know what it wants to be. You can't even make the claim that everything is gonna "go back to Aincrad" because nothing has been coming from Aincrad beyond Retconville. That's not how you build a story. That's how you throw blocks in a pile hoping some kind of structure will come of it eventually. So little of the current story has anything to do with Aincrad, to the point that it's almost a joke to even call it "Sword Art Online". That's why there are so many retcons to make up for it.
Moreover, so much of SAO after Fairy Dance is the same old "If I die in the game, I X!" or even the same "100 floors" thing, like what was done in Alicization, which didn't even matter because they casually walked through most of the floors with ease.
Phantom Bullet:
"If I die in the game, a murderer may be over my bed to inject me with poison at the same time so that I'll die in real life!"
Ordinal Scale:
"If I die in the game, I'll lose my memories... or just get fried!"
Alicization:
No wait, this show didn't even bother coming up with a twist, since it's just an Isekai where death has an obvious consequence.
War of Underworld:
"If I die in the game, there's a chance that I might lose my account!"
Unital Ring:
"If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it!"
You can see the point. SAO is in this weird spot where the status quo is both changing so far from Aincrad that it's unrecognizable, and at the same time, it wants so badly to be Aincrad by trying desperately to recapture its magic. The whole reason death in a video game was a cool idea is because a video game is something you play. It's not something where you're supposed to worry about consequences. So to take that concept and turn it into a death game you're trapped in, is cool. Trying to do it over and over again in different ways is just lame.
On that note, I can't really go into detail with my issues with that scene from WoU because I would have to unpack so many "themes" SAO fans hold dear, like Kirito's speech to Leafa about how actions in a video game are just as significant as real life back in ALO. These are all things I find unbearably dumb. But there were two things I found hilarious about the whole situation, and that was that there even was so much drama about losing your account to help people not getting slaughtered, and that the speech wanted us to feel bad for all the pain and suffering SAO survivors have gone through ever since they escaped the game, even though .02% of it was ever shown to us. These guys were happy-go-lucky all after SAO, yet that scene almost entirely hinged on us feeling as though they're risking their lives (are they tho?) to go and fight in spite of their trauma we never saw.
EDIT:
Oh, and as for me using MAL numbers, I know they aren't definitive. Most people who watch anime don't have a MAL account, just like most people who watch movies don't have an IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes account. It's all about the Law of Average. The numbers on this site reflect an average number of people who share their opinions from many parts of the world, and so while most people love SAO (as most people love mostly anything) the amount of them who watched far ahead is still relatively reflected by numbers on aggregate sites like this, and (anecdotally) by the fact that most people who are asked about how much SAO (if any) they watched, say that they only watched season 1, and didn't watch anything after that, or could barely keep going after that. They weren't given reason to tthink there was more in the mystery box, or that there was more behind the curtain. They came for Aincrad, and couldn't be bothered for much more.
@Eckl3
I didn't know if you saw AoT. I can still use it as an example, lol. It absolutely works as a comparison. If the shoe fits, I use it, even if you don't know about it. I could explain in detail why it works with examples and everything, but this thread has nothing to do with it, and I don't wanna spoil it for others.
The quote I provided from Reki was all he said in regards to going back. What he said was that he wanted to explore more of what was going on in Aincrad, things he didn't get a chance to explore during the first novel. And the reason for this decision (according to him) is explicitly because he didn't see any threads left that could lead to another story.
I don't think you understand my issue with Kayaba's motives here. The show (and especially the novel) both imply that the answer was given. Nobody was confused about it, and Kirito "understood" what was said. The idea that there was more to it only came up with the World SEED, and that turned out to be a game engine and led to a happily ever after. Season 2 (and mostly 3) can come along and say that we literally have no idea why that happened, but there's no reason to take that seriously when there was no precedent for that. If they actually said that he had to kill people to save them, whether or not that makes a lick of sense, it would still be a retcon, and egregious one at that. It would be akin to Palpatine’s “Final Solution” in Rise of Skywalker even.
As for everything else you said, as I said in the very beginning, it ultimately changes very little. You can change the status quo of your story naturally and that's fine. You can evolve it into something more and keep the core themes intact. You cannot do that by lying to the audience. No matter how much fans wanna fight the tide on this, SAO is about a death game, and so if you don't naturally transition it into being something else, then it instead becomes a show that doesn't know what it wants to be. You can't even make the claim that everything is gonna "go back to Aincrad" because nothing has been coming from Aincrad beyond Retconville. That's not how you build a story. That's how you throw blocks in a pile hoping some kind of structure will come of it eventually. So little of the current story has anything to do with Aincrad, to the point that it's almost a joke to even call it "Sword Art Online". That's why there are so many retcons to make up for it.
Moreover, so much of SAO after Fairy Dance is the same old "If I die in the game, I X!" or even the same "100 floors" thing, like what was done in Alicization, which didn't even matter because they casually walked through most of the floors with ease.
Phantom Bullet:
"If I die in the game, a murderer may be over my bed to inject me with poison at the same time so that I'll die in real life!"
Ordinal Scale:
"If I die in the game, I'll lose my memories... or just get fried!"
Alicization:
No wait, this show didn't even bother coming up with a twist, since it's just an Isekai where death has an obvious consequence.
War of Underworld:
"If I die in the game, there's a chance that I might lose my account!"
Unital Ring:
"If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it!"
You can see the point. SAO is in this weird spot where the status quo is both changing so far from Aincrad that it's unrecognizable, and at the same time, it wants so badly to be Aincrad by trying desperately to recapture its magic. The whole reason death in a video game was a cool idea is because a video game is something you play. It's not something where you're supposed to worry about consequences. So to take that concept and turn it into a death game you're trapped in, is cool. Trying to do it over and over again in different ways is just lame.
On that note, I can't really go into detail with my issues with that scene from WoU because I would have to unpack so many "themes" SAO fans hold dear, like Kirito's speech to Leafa about how actions in a video game are just as significant as real life back in ALO. These are all things I find unbearably dumb. But there were two things I found hilarious about the whole situation, and that was that there even was so much drama about losing your account to help people not getting slaughtered, and that the speech wanted us to feel bad for all the pain and suffering SAO survivors have gone through ever since they escaped the game, even though .02% of it was ever shown to us. These guys were happy-go-lucky all after SAO, yet that scene almost entirely hinged on us feeling as though they're risking their lives (are they tho?) to go and fight in spite of their trauma we never saw.
EDIT:
Oh, and as for me using MAL numbers, I know they aren't definitive. Most people who watch anime don't have a MAL account, just like most people who watch movies don't have an IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes account. It's all about the Law of Average. The numbers on this site reflect an average number of people who share their opinions from many parts of the world, and so while most people love SAO (as most people love mostly anything) the amount of them who watched far ahead is still relatively reflected by numbers on aggregate sites like this, and (anecdotally) by the fact that most people who are asked about how much SAO (if any) they watched, say that they only watched season 1, and didn't watch anything after that, or could barely keep going after that. They weren't given reason to tthink there was more in the mystery box, or that there was more behind the curtain. They came for Aincrad, and couldn't be bothered for much more.
ok, ok, maybe Kayabas motives already were there. If so, can you explain in simpler terms, talk like I'm an idiot who doesn't know anything.
Second, even if there isn't any thread to connect season 1 to season 2, he did create one in a way. And no, it's not by having someone from laughing coffin be the antagonist in it. It's Kikuoka who connects both of the stories. If you remember in one of the LNs, it says that the person who helped him locate Asuna was kikuoka with those people. So, Kikuoka used that favor of him to get him to investigate the death gun incident. It might be a small part, but it is a thread that connects both the seasons. And that's also how season 3 connects to season 2. it's through kirkuoka. Kiritos connection to him let's him be a candidate for the soul translater. So, even though it seems like he just got dropped in the middle of no where, you gotta remember that he volunteered AND is getting paid for doing this. Being part of a big project that could revolutionize technology and the like is amazing. He also called it a "beta test". which, to any gamer at least, is something that you really can't pass up.
The fact that there is something like a overall theme of "if you die, x..." then it's something, right? doing it over and over again may seem like beating a dead horse, but it's something isn't it? maybe doing it over and over again is lame, but you still have something for each in the end.
If you're also taking about connections, the seed is also a good one too. It might be a game engine that he got, but why call it a seed? why not it take some other form? it could be just a little chip with some things on it, right? You could also say that the seed is supposed to represent something. You have to plant a seed and wait for it to grow, right? that's exactly what it did though. Both with the underworld and with UR, it's growing into something more. And you said there is nothing coming from Aincrad? that's not entirely true. the sword skills from there got implanted in almost every place. ALO? it has sword skills. The underworld? Has sword skills. UR? has sword skills. GGO? wait... but I wasn't supposed to anyway, it's a world of guns, lol. another thing that came from Aincrad? The cardinal system. It has everything to do in the underworld because of its laws of balance.
But going back to what is sao now? it's still about a death game. It apparently doesn't matter what form it takes, no matter how it's done. it's still a death game, you said so yourself with having all of them laid out like it.
phantom: fear of playing for fear of dying IRL.
Alicization and UR (you mostly just lump them together because they go together): not really transported but still, can't log out if dead (although they didn't entirely know what would happen, just had a guess)
Ordinal scale: if you die, you get memories taken. (although that one had some other things to it too)
but yea, you gave what sao still is about . It's still about some death game of some sort even if it keeps repeating again and again in different ways.
| @Eckl3 You want me to prove a negative? I've explained why Kayaba's "motives" for season 2 and 3 weren't established, so i suppose the only thing after that would be to ask why you seem to think they were, preferably without clinging to straws. First of All, that scene you're referring to is in the anime as well, and Kikuoka is never mentioned by name. He's merely referenced as the guy who helped him find Asuna in exchange for info on SAO. It's actually quite shocking how much Reki went out of his way to not mention him by name. That however is neither here nor there. Him being established to exist does not establish anything. His goal was to create Alicization. That was never setup prior to season 2. His existence is hardly a thread at all. The very BETA test you're referring to that Kirito took part in was in season 3. You can't use that to argue how season 1 set it up even remotely. Obviously, you don't need to spell everything out from chapter 1 onward, but you can't literally invent it on the spot then retroactively tell us it was there all along. No, the "If you die..." isn't really anything at all. :"If you die..." is literally life. Death has a consequence in any setting, in any life, and even in any game. Every story has it, and still tells a story in some other way. There's no reason why SAO should be some magical exception. The reason why it was (once upon a time) was because it took something surreal, with all of its tropes and artificial mechanics (a video game) and turned it into a death trap with many questions waiting for the end of it all. Death trap stories are fine, but if the only twist to literally any setting at all you ever write, is that death has consequence, then all you're doing is telling a story, period. This doesn't justify the sequels, because death being a consequence is an oversimplification of what made Aincrad as a concept so special. You can't maintain or recapture that just by making death a have consequences. I mean, for God's sake, Alicization isn't even about a video game! It's literally another world in the truest sense of the word. Ok, look. the SEED is called the SEED because it plants new worlds. That's what it does, and that's it. It's not because it was intended to setup a world of artificial human souls that would (somehow...?) break the boundaries between reality and virtual, because the only ones doing anything on that front were Kikuoka the gang. He just wanted everybody to play games and have fun. I get that people wanna read more into it, but please, I'm being serious here, try to think about SAO through the lens of its first season, and see how that well its predecessors hold up. Uh... really? Sword skills? Cardinal? That's what you're appealing to? I was talking about storytelling and how that affects themes, all to say that the retcons damage it all. I wasn't talking about literal game mechanics, but story mechanics. The things that aren't coming from SAO are the story elements because so much of it was never touched until we arrived at Retconville. I was very clear about this. Reki is actively telling the story of Aincrad after the story of Aincrad came and went, and this can only be done by way of retcons. Phantom Bullet turned out to be an elaborate prank. It was never a death game, it only seemed like that until the case was completely cracked open. Alicization was just another world, and Unital Ring isn't even a death game at all. It's quite literally "If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it! ARRGH!" Ordinal Scale is about losing memories, but then it turned into a death game at the last second. Even so, it was a one-shot, so it can hardly count as changing the status quo. |
Reply to Eckl3
Hango-Man said:
@Eckl3
You want me to prove a negative? I've explained why Kayaba's "motives" for season 2 and 3 weren't established, so i suppose the only thing after that would be to ask why you seem to think they were, preferably without clinging to straws.
First of All, that scene you're referring to is in the anime as well, and Kikuoka is never mentioned by name. He's merely referenced as the guy who helped him find Asuna in exchange for info on SAO. It's actually quite shocking how much Reki went out of his way to not mention him by name. That however is neither here nor there. Him being established to exist does not establish anything. His goal was to create Alicization. That was never setup prior to season 2. His existence is hardly a thread at all. The very BETA test you're referring to that Kirito took part in was in season 3. You can't use that to argue how season 1 set it up even remotely. Obviously, you don't need to spell everything out from chapter 1 onward, but you can't literally invent it on the spot then retroactively tell us it was there all along.
No, the "If you die..." isn't really anything at all. :"If you die..." is literally life. Death has a consequence in any setting, in any life, and even in any game. Every story has it, and still tells a story in some other way. There's no reason why SAO should be some magical exception. The reason why it was (once upon a time) was because it took something surreal, with all of its tropes and artificial mechanics (a video game) and turned it into a death trap with many questions waiting for the end of it all. Death trap stories are fine, but if the only twist to literally any setting at all you ever write, is that death has consequence, then all you're doing is telling a story, period. This doesn't justify the sequels, because death being a consequence is an oversimplification of what made Aincrad as a concept so special. You can't maintain or recapture that just by making death a have consequences. I mean, for God's sake, Alicization isn't even about a video game! It's literally another world in the truest sense of the word.
Ok, look. the SEED is called the SEED because it plants new worlds. That's what it does, and that's it. It's not because it was intended to setup a world of artificial human souls that would (somehow...?) break the boundaries between reality and virtual, because the only ones doing anything on that front were Kikuoka the gang. He just wanted everybody to play games and have fun. I get that people wanna read more into it, but please, I'm being serious here, try to think about SAO through the lens of its first season, and see how that well its predecessors hold up.
Uh... really? Sword skills? Cardinal? That's what you're appealing to? I was talking about storytelling and how that affects themes, all to say that the retcons damage it all. I wasn't talking about literal game mechanics, but story mechanics. The things that aren't coming from SAO are the story elements because so much of it was never touched until we arrived at Retconville. I was very clear about this. Reki is actively telling the story of Aincrad after the story of Aincrad came and went, and this can only be done by way of retcons.
Phantom Bullet turned out to be an elaborate prank. It was never a death game, it only seemed like that until the case was completely cracked open. Alicization was just another world, and Unital Ring isn't even a death game at all. It's quite literally "If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it! ARRGH!" Ordinal Scale is about losing memories, but then it turned into a death game at the last second. Even so, it was a one-shot, so it can hardly count as changing the status quo.
@Eckl3
You want me to prove a negative? I've explained why Kayaba's "motives" for season 2 and 3 weren't established, so i suppose the only thing after that would be to ask why you seem to think they were, preferably without clinging to straws.
First of All, that scene you're referring to is in the anime as well, and Kikuoka is never mentioned by name. He's merely referenced as the guy who helped him find Asuna in exchange for info on SAO. It's actually quite shocking how much Reki went out of his way to not mention him by name. That however is neither here nor there. Him being established to exist does not establish anything. His goal was to create Alicization. That was never setup prior to season 2. His existence is hardly a thread at all. The very BETA test you're referring to that Kirito took part in was in season 3. You can't use that to argue how season 1 set it up even remotely. Obviously, you don't need to spell everything out from chapter 1 onward, but you can't literally invent it on the spot then retroactively tell us it was there all along.
No, the "If you die..." isn't really anything at all. :"If you die..." is literally life. Death has a consequence in any setting, in any life, and even in any game. Every story has it, and still tells a story in some other way. There's no reason why SAO should be some magical exception. The reason why it was (once upon a time) was because it took something surreal, with all of its tropes and artificial mechanics (a video game) and turned it into a death trap with many questions waiting for the end of it all. Death trap stories are fine, but if the only twist to literally any setting at all you ever write, is that death has consequence, then all you're doing is telling a story, period. This doesn't justify the sequels, because death being a consequence is an oversimplification of what made Aincrad as a concept so special. You can't maintain or recapture that just by making death a have consequences. I mean, for God's sake, Alicization isn't even about a video game! It's literally another world in the truest sense of the word.
Ok, look. the SEED is called the SEED because it plants new worlds. That's what it does, and that's it. It's not because it was intended to setup a world of artificial human souls that would (somehow...?) break the boundaries between reality and virtual, because the only ones doing anything on that front were Kikuoka the gang. He just wanted everybody to play games and have fun. I get that people wanna read more into it, but please, I'm being serious here, try to think about SAO through the lens of its first season, and see how that well its predecessors hold up.
Uh... really? Sword skills? Cardinal? That's what you're appealing to? I was talking about storytelling and how that affects themes, all to say that the retcons damage it all. I wasn't talking about literal game mechanics, but story mechanics. The things that aren't coming from SAO are the story elements because so much of it was never touched until we arrived at Retconville. I was very clear about this. Reki is actively telling the story of Aincrad after the story of Aincrad came and went, and this can only be done by way of retcons.
Phantom Bullet turned out to be an elaborate prank. It was never a death game, it only seemed like that until the case was completely cracked open. Alicization was just another world, and Unital Ring isn't even a death game at all. It's quite literally "If I die in the game, I won't be able to log back into it! ARRGH!" Ordinal Scale is about losing memories, but then it turned into a death game at the last second. Even so, it was a one-shot, so it can hardly count as changing the status quo.
so, im confused. are you saying kayaba has already had his motives or not? I'm talking about season 1 for kayabas motives not being there for actually inventing the death game. I was just asking if you could tell me his motives for making since you said that they were already established. "the show (and especially the novel) both imply that the answer was given. nobody was confused about it and kirito "understood" what was said". you also said that we don't know why that happened with the world seed but also said that it shouldn't be taken seriously. so I'm just confused if you think we knew kayabas motives or not.
And to Kikuoka, we did know that his division took over the SAO incident and that he was one of the lead detectives or whatever during it because he was the one who gave kirito the location of asunas hospital in exchange for information about the game. you technically could argue that it sets it up because the world seed is what Rath used to create the underworld, that's why the sword skills were able to be used in thag world.
So, you could say that the anime is just representing death at each twist and turn of life? And isn't that what the author supposed to be doing in the first place? telling a story? Sure, it can be an oversimplification of death but isn't that a lot of stories too? And Sure, maybe it does a bad job of it, but what is perfect. nothing really. Another thing is that Alicizarion may not be about a video game but to some of the people working at Rath, you could call it that. The developers would have pulled the plug in it just like a bad game if not for Kirito.
Lol. maybe it wasn't intended to set anything up like the Underworld, but it did. Rath took part of the seed and implemented the Underworld on it. If I remember correctly, it's because if the costs. And technically they were supposed to break a boundary because they were going to be used for AI soldiers for the JFD. The only reason that they didn't was because of the code that they had if they rebelled. And if you think of it through the lens of the 1st season, it might not have at first but you could say that it did too. The world seed did set up for more people to be able to create things, so in a sense, the Underworld wouldn't be created without the seed.
And my bad. I didn't think you meant story telling. no need to get so angry about it. Wow, I thought you didn't want to start a flame war. Here i am, asking questions, hoping to have an actual debate but I'm just getting hate. Shouldn't have butt in then. Thought you wanted an actual discussion.
Yea, but Kirito said it himself that UR is the exact opposite of SAO. so, it's not supposed to be SAO. Plus, ordinal scale was about dealing with the loss of loved one, not just about a death game. Sure, it had references to SAO, but it wasn't entirely supposed to capture anything else. wait, trauma. Eiji wasn't able to deal with the death of Yuna and took it out on everyone who also played that game. He had to deal with the death and trauma of a loved one.
again, sorry, didn't mean to upset you so. hope you get over it.
| @Eckl3 Again, that quote only reflects what the show tells us. I was very clear in that quote. I'm not saying that an actual answer was given. I'm saying the show was acting as though the answer was provided and that there was no need to press on because we reached the finish line. Whether or not I agree with that and/or why is not the point. The show has to be consistent. If it invents a reason via retcons to explain why we didn't get an answer, that's just cheating. This kind of feels tiring (no offense) because no matter how many times I point out how we need to stay on season 1 in order to establish future facts, you can’t stop imposing the later seasons onto it. The only thing Kirito said was that he spoke with someone from the Ministry and told them all about SAO. He says nothing about sending detectives out to investigate other stuff, he says nothing about some secret government project, and he says nothing about Kikuoka. And again, on the World SEED, this only shows that Reki eventually used prior mechanics to explain future stories. This isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m talking about setting up prior things for storytelling, and not retroactively telling past stories in the future. Just because the Underworld couldn’t exist without the SEED, doesn’t mean the SEED set up the Underworld. Those are two separate topics. When writers foreshadow properly, this becomes an “Aha! I remember that! Now it’s all coming together.” moment. When a writer retcons instead, it becomes “Huh…? Really?” The anime is not “representing death”, it’s just giving it a different consequence and tying it to a video game, or just not commenting on it at all because it’s obvious. LOL, what?! In what way did you interpret that as me being angry? I’m actually shocked now. I asked “Uh... really? Sword skills? Cardinal? That's what you're appealing to?” but I wasn’t angry or even aggressive. I was just genuinely surprised. Yes, Ordinal Scale was about the loss of a loved one. Honestly, I don’t think it necessarily needed to be a death game. It could have just been a personal, emotional journey, but the movie wasn’t satisfied with that, so the stakes amped up for the third act… perhaps to be like Aincrad…? Again, I’m not upset, and you sure as hell didn’t offend me. You’ve been kind this whole time. |
Reply to SorryDaSlayer
The alicization disregarding in this thread is insane. I love sao ALOT and I’m here to tell you both seasons of alicization are better than what came before them, yes even season 1. IMO ggo is the only true bad arc of the show and even then it’s not bad. if you want just aincrad than read progressive or watch the movies but almost everything that has come after aincrad in the main show has been amazing if not better.
| @SorryDaSlayer This thread isn't even about whether or not they're amazing. If you read what the OG post I made says, this is about the direction of the stories, retcons, identity, and planning, NOT the show's quality. You can love SAO to bits with all your heart, and still understand why this conversation is taking place. |
Reply to SorryDaSlayer
I wasn’t talking about your original post I was talking about the avoidance of alicization most of the commenters have. I believe it’s unfair to judge a 4 season series based off of 14 episodes.
| @SorryDaSlayer I don't mean for it to sound like we're disregarding it. I'm just trying to get into how it all fits. 14 episodes may not be much, but for many, that is SAO. (Makes a lot of sense tbh) |
Reply to SorryDaSlayer
Like I said if you just want aincrad progressive exists most of what came after aincrad is better anyway.
| @SorryDaSlayer Bringing up Progressive doesn't somehow discount the conversation about SAO's retconned sequels. We can still talk about both and how they all fit into the canon. The existence of Progressive doesn't change that. |
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