| I thought most the ending sucked ass tbh. The final battle seemed like a parody of generic anime The build up was cool and all but the end parts made no sense or seemed out of nowhere I really wanted to enjoy it but I have similar feeling that it didn’t make much sense |
Oremonogatari said: Watashi35 said: I thought most the ending sucked ass tbh. The final battle seemed like a parody of generic anime The build up was cool and all but the end parts made no sense or seemed out of nowhere I really wanted to enjoy it but I have similar feeling that it didn’t make much sense No offence, but this has nothing to do with what he asked. Not very helpful. Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. |
Mq84jdk said: Watashi35 said: Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. They explained that every time he clashes swords with his future self, some of his skills/body memory returns. It’s why he’s able to get better exponentially as he battles himself. And how he can learn skills and abilities only his future self knows. The mechanic is pretty cool actually, and it makes sense the way they explained it. Maybe I was just being too elitist and thought it all seemed rushed and underdeveloped for viewers. |
Watashi35Feb 18, 2022 4:44 PM
Watashi35 said: Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. You don't know what you're talking about and you're appending meaning to parts which are completely unlinked. OP, if I understood right you're thinking of that desert the final scene takes place in. This is a human Shirou traversing an area which we can safely assume (via outside sources) archer had also been in before, during his time as a human. What the moment is supposed to represent is that Shirou is on the same trajectory as archer, but as archer said in the little soliloquy before, "[he] was not wrong" (in pursuing his dream) and UBW Shirou, with the knowledge of what archer goes through, will avoid making the same mistake which turned archer into the jaded regretful person that he is. From Nasu's blog there is this draft of the scene which didn't end up making the cut: "After the end credits. A desert scene, same as the opening. Shirou walks alone. His strength falters and he stops walking. Shirou looks down to shield his eyes from the sandstorm, and sees traces of someone else having been there (the place where Archer stopped). Shirou breathes out and looks up. There's fake endurance in his expression, but it's full of hope. Shirou walks away with a steady gait. The camera lingers on the traces of Archer's presence, and watches Shirou leave as the shot ends." If my memory is correct, there is also a little note about archer watching him without any contempt or malice in his face implying he now only feels pride in their ideal. |
offcrack said: Watashi35 said: Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. You don't know what you're talking about and you're appending meaning to parts which are completely unlinked. OP, if I understood right you're thinking of that desert the final scene takes place in. This is a human Shirou traversing an area which we can safely assume (via outside sources) archer had also been in before, during his time as a human. What the moment is supposed to represent is that Shirou is on the same trajectory as archer, but as archer said in the little soliloquy before, "[he] was not wrong" (in pursuing his dream) and UBW Shirou, with the knowledge of what archer goes through, will avoid making the same mistake which turned archer into the jaded regretful person that he is. From Nasu's blog there is this draft of the scene which didn't end up making the cut: "After the end credits. A desert scene, same as the opening. Shirou walks alone. His strength falters and he stops walking. Shirou looks down to shield his eyes from the sandstorm, and sees traces of someone else having been there (the place where Archer stopped). Shirou breathes out and looks up. There's fake endurance in his expression, but it's full of hope. Shirou walks away with a steady gait. The camera lingers on the traces of Archer's presence, and watches Shirou leave as the shot ends." If my memory is correct, there is also a little note about archer watching him without any contempt or malice in his face implying he now only feels pride in their ideal. Well, that’s a much better explanation than mine. Guess I was in the wrong and interpreted the series incorrectly. Maybe I should rewatch it eventually and reevaluate |
Watashi35 said: offcrack said: You don't know what you're talking about and you're appending meaning to parts which are completely unlinked. OP, if I understood right you're thinking of that desert the final scene takes place in. This is a human Shirou traversing an area which we can safely assume (via outside sources) archer had also been in before, during his time as a human. What the moment is supposed to represent is that Shirou is on the same trajectory as archer, but as archer said in the little soliloquy before, "[he] was not wrong" (in pursuing his dream) and UBW Shirou, with the knowledge of what archer goes through, will avoid making the same mistake which turned archer into the jaded regretful person that he is. From Nasu's blog there is this draft of the scene which didn't end up making the cut: "After the end credits. A desert scene, same as the opening. Shirou walks alone. His strength falters and he stops walking. Shirou looks down to shield his eyes from the sandstorm, and sees traces of someone else having been there (the place where Archer stopped). Shirou breathes out and looks up. There's fake endurance in his expression, but it's full of hope. Shirou walks away with a steady gait. The camera lingers on the traces of Archer's presence, and watches Shirou leave as the shot ends." If my memory is correct, there is also a little note about archer watching him without any contempt or malice in his face implying he now only feels pride in their ideal. Well, that’s a much better explanation than mine. Guess I was in the wrong and interpreted the series incorrectly. Maybe I should rewatch it eventually and reevaluate FYI visual novel clears up most confusion about interpretation, the ufotable anime relies a lot more on subtle visual cues which are easy to miss unless you're already familiar with the source material which leads to the point being so easily missed in a lot of parts |
offcrack said: Watashi35 said: Well, that’s a much better explanation than mine. Guess I was in the wrong and interpreted the series incorrectly. Maybe I should rewatch it eventually and reevaluate FYI visual novel clears up most confusion about interpretation, the ufotable anime relies a lot more on subtle visual cues which are easy to miss unless you're already familiar with the source material which leads to the point being so easily missed in a lot of parts Maybe that’s what happened, adapting visual novels usually leads to more changes or ambiguity than mangas. I plan on watching some other versions of Stay/Night anyway to hopefully understand a bit more I love the concept of Fate and there are interesting characters but for some reason UBW didn’t click. Perhaps I didn’t understand it much. Hyped to watch the Heaven’s Feel though |
Watashi35 said: Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. So I read through your other replies and it seems to me that your biggest and probably sole gripe with the ending was Shirou being cracked as hell? I mean I sort of get it, but you're underestimating the scope of the paradox at play here. Archer killing Shirou would've been sufficient to erase a Counter Guardian from existence; heroes beyond time. Shirou clashing with his older self's mana (Since Servants themselves are a mass of mana) and letting it flow into him is bound to do what it did. He was essentially absorbing a servant's skills and experiences. Both Shirou and Archer, in that instance, were experiencing each other's memories, further leading Shirou to pick up projections like Rho Aias. When all is said and done, Shirou's strength still wasn't nearly enough to take on a servant at full power. Both Archer and Gilgamesh could've taken him down. However, Archer couldn't kill him because he finally remembered his promise to Kiritsugu and how much it had meant to him; something he'd forgotten over time. Gilgamesh got killed because of his ego. He could've destroyed Shirou twice over with Ea and Enkidu, but since he has a policy to use them exclusively on people he deems worthy, he underestimated the reality marble's abilities and got cucked. Even though he did absorb a servant's abilities to get cracked, there wasn't anything 'Deus ex machina'-istic about it. Both the servants he defeated essentially allowed Shirou to cut them down. Either because of an epiphany, or just plain old hubris. Your interpretation of the desert scene was pretty much spot on, except Shirou WON'T be going down Archer's path in any case. The final parallel was supposed to symbolise Shirou moving past Archer's end and forging his own destiny. |
certifiedbingerFeb 18, 2022 11:58 PM
Destiny100 said: If Archer and Emiya are technically the same person and Archer failed in killing his past self thus meaning he could not be free, and Emiya's ideals at the end never changed was that guy at the end Emiya in the future as Archer back in that desert? ( Is being in that desert not a bad thing?) Also can someone just explain what that desert actually is just in a bit more detail as I did not fully grasp the concept behind it. They do not end up becoming the same person, while Shirou never gives up on his ideals, he focuses on the idea that being a Hero of Justice is more about the journey, so he won't make the mistakes Archer did. The desert is either Unlimited Blade Works, Archer's reality marble (his hyper distorted view of the world manifested as a noble phantasm) or just a random desert he goes to as a Counter-Guardian |
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certifiedbinger said: Watashi35 said: Archer/Emiya and the desert with UBW are very central to the conclusion. Though perhaps I should have specified more specifically what went wrong. The desert was supposed to represent some place Archer was summoned to act as a guardian to eliminate criminals and symbolize the endless warfare (UNLIMITED blade works). In spite of seeing how hopeless and empty his future could become, Emiya decides to fight anyway and not give up, keeping his ideals. But they screwed up the conclusion badly and made the development of Emiya nonexistent by giving him Deus Ex Machina powers to win everything with no trouble and appear superior to his future self and other OP servants. And the philosophy was both vague and butchered entirely with the significance of the events, hence OPs confusion. So I read through your other replies and it seems to me that your biggest and probably sole gripe with the ending was Shirou being cracked as hell? I mean I sort of get it, but you're underestimating the scope of the paradox at play here. Archer killing Shirou would've been sufficient to erase a Counter Guardian from existence; heroes beyond time. Shirou clashing with his older self's mana (Since Servants themselves are a mass of mana) and letting it flow into him is bound to do what it did. He was essentially absorbing a servant's skills and experiences. Both Shirou and Archer, in that instance, were experiencing each other's memories, further leading Shirou to pick up projections like Rho Aias. When all is said and done, Shirou's strength still wasn't nearly enough to take on a servant at full power. Both Archer and Gilgamesh could've taken him down. However, Archer couldn't kill him because he finally remembered his promise to Kiritsugu and how much it had meant to him; something he'd forgotten over time. Gilgamesh got killed because of his ego. He could've destroyed Shirou twice over with Ea and Enkidu, but since he has a policy to use them exclusively on people he deems worthy, he underestimated the reality marble's abilities and got cucked. Even though he did absorb a servant's abilities to get cracked, there wasn't anything 'Deus ex machina'-istic about it. Both the servants he defeated essentially allowed Shirou to cut them down. Either because of an epiphany, or just plain old hubris. Your interpretation of the desert scene was pretty much spot on, except Shirou WON'T be going down Archer's path in any case. The final parallel was supposed to symbolise Shirou moving past Archer's end and forging his own destiny. I guess I can understand a narrative reason for Emiya winning the servant fights, but it still seemed too convenient, as if he were just handed victory. I didn’t get why Gilgamesh was being such a dumbass when he curb-stomped multiple overpowered masters before. He certainly is prideful, but it still feells as if the servants Emiya fought against were written to make silly errors so that he would win. But what made me roll my eyes even more was Archer’s return. He appeared to be dead and disappeared and then suddenly he came back to save them, ruining the narrative significance and finality of the battle. In the previous series, the winner didn't have such a simple time with the holy grail war, without giving away spoilers. Here it felt like the conclusion was just Emiya being very lucky with no struggle. Though maybe this is a personal gripe, I wanted to see the protagonist really be challenged more Maybe the visual novel clears it up or something |
Watashi35Feb 19, 2022 5:05 AM
Watashi35 said: I didn’t get why Gilgamesh was being such a dumbass when he curb-stomped multiple overpowered masters before. He certainly is prideful, but it still feells as if the servants Emiya fought against were written to make silly errors so that he would win. I think Gilgamesh made his mentality pretty clear even back in Zero. He prizes nobility and class and looks down at the ones who go against his image of them. The 'Faker' element was stressed a LOT for this exact same reason in both the Visual Novel and the Anime. Gilgamesh underestimated Shirou even more than he normally would have because he considers him to be an inferior replica of his abilities. Completely consistent with his character if you ask me. Archer didn't make any errors in his fight as far as I could tell. Just like Shirou absorbed his memories, Archer absorbed back his own. They're essentially the same person, but with Archer having forgotten why he wanted to chase Kiritsugu's dream in the first place. He saw the living embodiment of his newly recalled dream in Shirou and thus, couldn't cut him down. I don't consider that a 'mistake' per se, apropos to Archer's final words in the show, 'I was not wrong'. And you might be forgetting the number of Ls Shirou took before the actual ending. He got thoroughly rolled by every servant he met in every single route. Berserker, Rider, Caster- all those interactions ended with Shirou nearly dying. That contradicts your last sentence. Watashi35 said: But what made me roll my eyes even more was Archer’s return. He appeared to be dead and disappeared and then suddenly he came back to save them, ruining the narrative significance and finality of the battle. Touché. While it cheapened the impact a fair bit, Archer's previous death was very anti-climactic for a major character if you ask me. Besides, him popping back up and his final conversation with Rin was essential to let us know where things would go once Shirou decided to pursue his ideal. Unlike Archer, he'd have Rin who wouldn't let him end up like his future self. The final epilogue in London never happened in the Visual Novel. Instead, it ended with the classroom scene and a poem that implied Shirou would end up returning back home to Rin, instead of following in Archer's footsteps.  Watashi35 said: In the previous series, the winner had to sacrifice so much to win the holy grail war. Here it felt like the conclusion was just Emiya being very lucky with no struggle. Though maybe this is a personal gripe, I wanted to see the protagonist really be challenged more This is exactly where Fate's year old 'Watch Order' dilemma comes in, and why the community is SO torn on it. Now look at it with this perspective. You start the show with Staynight characters and plot. From the first two routes, you just know Kiritsugu as this adoptive father who inexplicably destroyed the previous grail. You finally get to know 'Why?' in Heaven's Feel (already shown in Zero). And THEN Zero came out as a prequel and detailed the entire events of Kiritsugu's dilemma and his character. This is the actual release order of the Visual Novel and Light Novels. The thing is, people who start with Zero base their expectations for Staynight according to the prequel. When it is actually supposed to be the other way around, since their tone is completely different. |
certifiedbingerFeb 19, 2022 5:28 AM
certifiedbinger said: Watashi35 said: I didn’t get why Gilgamesh was being such a dumbass when he curb-stomped multiple overpowered masters before. He certainly is prideful, but it still feells as if the servants Emiya fought against were written to make silly errors so that he would win. I think Gilgamesh made his mentality pretty clear even back in Zero. He prizes nobility and class and looks down at the ones who go against his image of them. The 'Faker' element was stressed a LOT for this exact same reason in both the Visual Novel and the Anime. Gilgamesh underestimated Shirou even more than he normally would have because he considers him to be an inferior replica of his abilities. Completely consistent with his character if you ask me. Archer didn't make any errors in his fight as far as I could tell. Just like Shirou absorbed his memories, Archer absorbed back his own. They're essentially the same person, but with Archer having forgotten why he wanted to chase Kiritsugu's dream in the first place. He saw the living embodiment of his newly recalled dream in Shirou and thus, couldn't cut him down. I don't consider that a 'mistake' per se, apropos to Archer's final words in the show, 'I was not wrong'. And you might be forgetting the number of Ls Shirou took before the actual ending. He got thoroughly rolled by every servant he met in every single route. Berserker, Rider, Caster- all those interactions ended with Shirou nearly dying. That contradicts your last sentence. Watashi35 said: But what made me roll my eyes even more was Archer’s return. He appeared to be dead and disappeared and then suddenly he came back to save them, ruining the narrative significance and finality of the battle. Touché. While it cheapened the impact a fair bit, Archer's previous death was very anti-climactic for a major character if you ask me. Besides, him popping back up and his final conversation with Rin was essential to let us know where things would go once Shirou decided to pursue his ideal. Unlike Archer, he'd have Rin who wouldn't let him end up like his future self. The final epilogue in London never happened in the Visual Novel. Instead, it ended with the classroom scene and a poem that implied Shirou would end up returning back home to Rin, instead of following in Archer's footsteps. Watashi35 said: In the previous series, the winner had to sacrifice so much to win the holy grail war. Here it felt like the conclusion was just Emiya being very lucky with no struggle. Though maybe this is a personal gripe, I wanted to see the protagonist really be challenged more This is exactly where Fate's year old 'Watch Order' dilemma comes in, and why the community is SO torn on it. Now look at it with this perspective. You start the show with Staynight characters and plot. From the first two routes, you just know Kiritsugu as this adoptive father who inexplicably destroyed the previous grail. You finally get to know 'Why?' in Heaven's Feel (already shown in Zero). And THEN Zero came out as a prequel and detailed the entire events of Kiritsugu's dilemma and his character. This is the actual release order of the Visual Novel and Light Novels. The thing is, people who start with Zero base their expectations for Staynight according to the prequel. When it is actually supposed to be the other way around, since their tone is completely different. Maybe the conflicting tone was also an issue, I found the focus on multiple characters as opposed to one made me much more invested as I could not tell how it would end by going in to fate series blind (ok, maybe it was obvious Saber would stay around a while at least) Stay Night was still good but I may have been harsher on it because it wasn’t quite what I expected and the ending took some effort to piece together as Anime Only |
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