theGodde said:so funny story, I for some reason never got the notification for your latest post. For second I thought I saw it and forgot, but I checked and I was never sent a notification. Sad indeed. Luckily I got one for your latest post.
It might have been because i tried to reply in a thread for a later episode.
Well, no worries :)
I would agree hatred of a work on its own is not enough to properly judge it.
But I go about reconciling this with criticism in a slightly different manner. Both love and hate are based on your own expectations and what the work delivered to you. If you had incredibly low expectations and watched something great then you may love it irrationally. And if you have high expectation and watched an above average/mediocre work then you may hate it because it didn't live up to your expectations. In that way, a person's expectations are the key to deciphering their criticism and building up a picture of the inherent quality of a work.
I would say that it doesn't matter where you start as long as you are capable of separating the person's opinion into expectations + reality. It's especially useful in reviews where people give some context for how they were feeling beforehand. Pretending to be unbiased just makes it harder to filter out the actual bias. However I would agree that it is certainly harder to start from a point of hatred than a point of love. That has some exceptions. As an example, the early reviews for 86 on MAL were all super positive except for one or two. The positive ones literally said things like "I LOVE 86!!!!!!!!!" and nothing else - still ending up as one of the top reviews, whereas because the LN was so popular, haters were forced to write extensive essays in order to justify their (oftentimes) irrational hatred. I learnt more about 86 from the haters than the fans.
I would agree that people that dislike things usually go to greater extents to justify themselves than people that like things. Therefore, in a situation where people that like things are just generally "<3", people that dislike things offer more ideas and explanations.
Dislike is also definitely easier to engage with. It takes some actual work to get someone whose basic position is basically "<3" to express anything else, especially if you don't share the sentiment yourself.
So haters are definitely easier to engage with and therefore can be a more ready source of information. What i question is the usefulness of the kind of information people with negative outlook can reliably provide.
Once you get past the engagement hurdle, positive emotion tells you much more about what the work actually is. With negative emotion, the only thing you can tell with any certainty is what the work isn't, and can only arrive at some true conclusions about it through process of elimination (which, in the sea of infinite interpretations, is in itself kinda pointless).
For example, you can definitely tell that Mahouka is not a great romance :). However, i bet you don't <really> understand what exactly is so appealing about the relationship displayed :). I am reasonably certain that while people with a specific fetish are definitely part of the crowd, this is not the main appeal for overwhelming majority of viewers. F/ex i do actually like the concept of main duo relationship. It is a time-honored "conservative protector" vs "free-spirited princess" dynamic. I just think it could be executed better and relies on fetish as a crutch much more than it needs to.
I would say that being a perfectionist creator is really good during the creative process, because you will constantly push yourself to create the best possible work. Tolkien probably wouldn't have created such a timeless classic if he wasn't a perfectionist (he also would have probably created a lot more lmao). But I'll agree that it has consequences for when you're interacting with fans or evaluating your own work.
I don't have any strong notions on perfectionism :D. My own perfectionism has more hindered me than helped me, so i learned to kind of keep it suppressed. But that is most certainly a matter of personal style, not something i'd generalize for everyone.
What i do insist on is that perfectionism is fine and good, but you do need to sit down and test results in the form of an actual story (however small compared to grand vision). No LotR without Hobbit.
In terms of Mahouka itself, I would say there are planning issues beyond that. In my experience of Mahouka, what makes the main plot entertaining is that it is set up so that the opposing force is underestimating Tatsuya. They insult him, they talk down on him behind his back, and then during the main climax Tatsuya reveals some aspect of himself that shows them up and puts them in their place. It's often incredibly satisfying to watch because we the audience know Tatsuya's true strength, and so we get angry on his behalf when these side characters start criticising him.
The issue is that after a certain point he starts running out of people who underestimate him. Once he's put everyone in their place, there's no one for him to overcome - no more challenges for him to face. And so as the story continues to progress each time Tatsuya has more people on his side and more control over the situation. This to me demonstrates a lack of planning. Although perhaps this demonstrates the author prioritising their efforts setting up some stronger character and story that has yet to be animated.
But most certainly the execution is completely buggered.
If we consider this side series only, you can't even call it a story. This is more like watching a highlights role of the OG mahouka series with bits of mayuki shoved in. There is no thematic consistency, there isn't even any main character consistency, the story is essentially three different stories occurring at the same time - Tatsuya's story, Mayuiki's story, and Honoka's story, and they rarely ever intertwine in an organic way. Couple this with the fact that Tatsuya's story is barely coherent because it's just bits of the original story shoved in, Mayuki's story is inconsistent at best, with her often just being fanservicey or thinking about Tatsuya, or providing extra insight or commentary to events from the main series. Honoka is the only character here who has been fleshed out and given something resembling an arc. Looking back I will have to agree with you, the first episode is by far the only one so far that holds up as its own thing. The biggest problem here is that this series doesn't even deliver on its promise. This isn't about the Honour Student at Magic High School, this is still about Tatsuya, the Irregular.
To me it seems this series had no planning at all, they just followed the main story and then added some extra story and commentary and called it a day. There is so much that needed to be done here for this to even be considered barely competent. Mayuki needed an arc, and the entire story needed to be restructured around her so that it doesn't get sucked up into the vacuum of Tatsuya (although every single plot and aspect of mahouka comes back to Tatsuya. Is it even possible to write a parallel story from someone else's PoV?). I almost feel like instead of trying to fix it, someone should have asked why this spinoff even deserved to be made in the first place? I see nothing so far that justifies its existence.
Oh, the answer to that last question is definitely cash and ratings :D
You need to remember that we are going through a global pandemic crisis right now. While it is not really visible in internet forums, it has actual impact on real-life productions. It could have easily been that the amount of studios capable of producing work on time significantly shrunk, so they had to quickly hammer out a marketable product, artistic value be damned.
So yeah, i totally share your opinion that the current spinoff is more or less worthless and is little more than a pure cash-in on the property. I don't even see any reason to discuss on-going episodes any more. They are little more than "oh, Honoka's boobs got even bigger huh" and "yay, cliffhanger".
As for the dynamics of the original franchise itself, what really drives it forward for me is not so much the nature of opposition that Tatsuya faces, but rather the nature of his relationship with Miyuki that forces him to engage such opposition. The real antagonist of this series is the freedom-loving princess who keeps putting her protector on the spot, causing him to constantly go to even greater lengths for her sake..
The problem with Mahouka is how long it takes the series to actually sink its teeth into the real heart of the proceedings, which is the internal situation of the main duo's family. Basically, the entirely of adapted material up to this point doesn't even begin to touch on the main conflict, instead engaging in rather inept worldbuilding.
In some ways, the author uses an excuse of escalating external world threats as an excuse to delay getting to the interesting stuff. Which is why the threats appear so inept (and only function in the story at all as long as they show the friction between the main duo).
Did not know that, makes sense in retrospect that Oda could have such confidence and vision.
just keep in mind that we're only around 4/5ths of the way through the main story. A lot of the larger plan will come to fruition in the next 7/8 years and we'll see a lot more of what Oda had set up at the start come full circle.
And while I agree shanks is currently more of a symbol than a character, that's simply because he's currently so out of reach of the main cast. Once Wano finishes I'm assuming Luffy's power levels will be high enough that he might be able to stand alongside Shanks (maybe eventually go toe to toe with him). Once that happens Oda will flesh out Shanks as a character.
If you want a better understanding of Oda's vision, he's been willing to talk about anything that's not a spoiler in creator's spot commentary sections. If you read through a few of them you'll get a better idea of what he had planned and what he didn't (although you run the risk of becoming an Oda simp lmao).
I'll admit One Piece kinda lost me after the timeskip :(. The whole Haki thing kinda overburdened by own suspension of disbelief for the power system of the series. The way the crew got split up and then reassembled feels absolutely tacked on as well. In my own eyes, One Piece basically ruined its core aesthetic of "family".
I also kinda failed to parse what exactly compelled Mugiwaras to follow Trafalgar's lead. The fact that they did, however, also ruined the sense of "adventure" for me (because now it isn't an adventure, it is a political coup).
Good to hear it's still working for you, though :D. Maybe i'll catch up to it next time i'll have a week or so to marathon the series.
I don't see how Sasuke couldn't have been a good antithesis to the main themes. Likely Kishimoto didn't know what he wanted to do with Sasuke and so he just kinda hung around in limbo as a vague goal and menacing threat for Naruto to interact with until Itachi's arc began in earnest.
The narrative already in place was fine, but Kishimoto clearly hadn't planned anything beyond that. After Rasengan Naruto learns no new jutsu. His tactics and personality stop changing whatsoever (although to an extent Naruto didn't have that much development in the OG series anyway).
The waterfall battle was where Naruto fell apart, however it was still somewhat entertaining on a surface level. The Pain arc was where Naruto ended. The stakes, the scale, and more importantly the personal threats and character development all peaked there (even though the world building died at the waterfall).
I personally liked the idea that at the end of Naruto, the two face off and Naruto fails, and then as the end of Shippuden, they rematch and Naruto wins, showing the increase in intelligence and maturity of Naruto throughout the show, and more importantly, paying off all his hard work and determination. And when you think about it, Naruto had so much room to grow. He was dumb, reckless, and impulsive. Why did he have to stay that way? If he became wiser, more intelligent, and less reckless, then it would have been so much more of a satisfying story. I'm currently watching Boruto (don't ask why) and Naruto still hasn't learnt new Justu, and is still just as dumb and immature as ever. Perhaps more offensive than Shippuden's one year timeskip, Boruto's 12 year timeskip also shows absolutely no changes whatsoever.
I also like the fail/success at the waterfall bookending :D. The problem is not that Naruto fails.
The problem is that Naruto's whole motivation at that point was "be Sasuke", with "be Hokage" being completely put aside. Naruto, by that point, spent more than two cours of episodes basically doing nothing but refusing Sasuke's rejections (which, ultimately, led to Sasuke escaping, which IMO was a stroke of genius). Naruto doesn't even notice when Konoha itself accepts him, in the form of all Konoha's kids following him into pursuit of Sasuke. He is basically Hokage at that point, but that doesn't matter to him anymore. Naruto is forever trapped in pursuit of Sasuke and is no longer able to take "no" for an answer. In some ways, he is no longer a free agent. What can he even do other than be in limbo after Sasuke leaves? And how can Sasuke even be a meaningful antagonist to that? Naruto is not even capable of feeling his antagonism anymore.
Well, i don't disagree that this can be viewed as a planning problem. In fact, this is actually a rather good example of a planning problem. The author lost sight of his original plan, which got subverted by what i can only see as a great audience reaction to Naruto/Sasuke relationship.
while I agree that Kubo probably didn't base Bleach off themes or ideas, I would disagree that he had no plan. From the beginning there were hints of what was to come. This can clearly be seen in how the soul society arc is fully formed and fleshed out, overall a pretty decent story. There are many smaller plots that naturally interweave themselves into one major plot climaxing with Rukia's execution service and Aizen's revelation.
Considering the fact that the formula for soul society was reused with the arrancar arc, that suggests to me that soul society must have been planned while the manga was in its infancy. Otherwise how else can you explain why Kubo was able to think up Soul Society on the fly, but not Arrancar? (at least without some evidence from Kubo himself).
What I think we can both agree here is that Bleach was missing a firm thematic foundation. The theme of friendship in anime is overused because it is so easy and requires little planning or vision. Kubo didn't have any real idea where he wanted Ichigo to grow and change as a character, or really any of the high school cast. The only real characters that grow and change are Byakuya and Renji, who are both fan favourites because of it.
Explaining why (i think) Kubo couldn't handle Arrankar s actually quite simple. While Kubo's style began as this unconstrained flourishing of teenage street art / fashion, Kubo himself chose to constrain that style with all the white kimonos and general white walls of Soul Society arc. This actually worked great because of the sheer artistic tension between the two things: there is nothing more natural for teenage hero than to tear down the white walls of traditionalism around him. Also, the contradiction between the white traditionalism of Soul Society visuals and individual personalities of the captains worked extremely well.
However, Kubo couldn't find a proper evolution to his art style in the Arrancar ark. White walls changed to white landscapes, but it didn't really change anything. White kimonos became an even stricter white chitin-like carapaces, but that also changed little. Kubo is now starving for new ideas and begins, artistically speaking, retreading old ground. This is a weakness of visual artistic vision compared to thematic vision. Thematic vision gets stronger on retread, while artistic vision wears thin. Arrancar are less compelling than the Captains and, ultimately, the whole arc is less compelling than Soul Society.
It isn't like it was completely hopeless: there were some individual shots of Aizen appearing downright sinister and definitely unlike anything Bleach had before. However, Arrancar show off none of that sinister appeal. It is one thing to imply that the characters you are dealing now are death itself and it is completely another to actually paint a convincing image. I think Kubo recognized the pathos of what he aimed at, but ultimately couldn't find the proper artistic language.
Well, he might find it one day. He certainly has the talent for it :)
This is where we will still continue to differ. It seems to me that you value the thematic meaning and ideas above all else, and the execution, characters and story are simply a means to that end, whereas I would say that the "cleanliness of the medium" is in itself an end. The quality of the storytelling is a massive deal because above all else the primary objective of a story is to entertain the viewer. Now sure you may find entertainment from intellectual stimulation, however the vast majority of people (myself included) watch anime and movies for other kinds of entertainment. Relatable characters, satisfying stories, new and interesting worlds. If you want to fairly criticise anime, then you have to criticise it from a perspective of what is considered desirable and entertaining traits.
I like profound anime as well. Anime with a strong and interesting thematic message are certainly more entertaining because of it. However to me it is the icing on top of the cake. It's better to have an entertaining well executed story with little thematic meaning than a boring, non-entertaining story with rich thematic meaning. I've seen enough crap lately. If I want to philosophise about something, I'll do it myself. I don't necessarily need an anime to provoke my already overthinking brain.
I find that entertaining and well executed stories can't help but have thematic meanings, even if these go over the head of the immediate viewer.
I definitely didn't think "nice youth vs death conflict" when watching early Bleach. It was entertaining and well executed :D. However, what made it entertaining and well executed in my eyes is that it was speaking to that fundamental aesthetic that i share.
I'll get into that one soon as well,
but right away when we consider "improving mahouka" generally what comes to mind is making it more like something we would enjoy. Whereas here it already has a label and a type of fan that enjoys it. This is why I expressed the idea that by changing the story, Mahouka will likely lose the appeal that it originally had.
I don't think you have to read many of the comments here to see that the incest is one of the major selling points of Mahouka. There's no getting around it, that is a firm aspect of its identity that couldn't be changed in a theoretical rework that is "improving" the series.
This is why it's taking me so long to make a post analysing Mahouka, because I'm not confident enough that I understand its true core appeal. I know for a fact that I watch it for a totally different reason to everyone else. I hope this helps you understand.
Lol, i keep asking you about YOUR reasons :). We can get to the objective truth later (if at all). In fact, getting to objective truth requires having well-defined personal viewpoints to begin with, so by delaying a proper definition of what YOU like you are not doing anyone any favours :)
overall, cheers; sorry about the late post. I'm only two days away from the next episode releasing as well lmao, kind of rendering this jump to the episode 7 discussion somewhat futile.
Well, it's ep 9 now :D.
If anything interesting happens there, i'm sure it'll come up. |
on mal-badges. View my badges 
