Emiya Shirou is a good character

NinoNakano13 said:
most of the hate seems to boil down to “he’s annoying and Kiritsugu was better.”

Tendo_GM said:

No... not even close...
Not even a single person thinks that T_T
The reason why people hate him is because he’s lifeless, has no personality and no character basis.
He’s written as an attempt to criticize basic protagonists who do good things just because they are good, Shirou is meant to be an answer to that while also being a character that is trying to be a hero just because that’s good, same as the others. But his intended purpose and character isn’t translated well at all, he just ends up being same as every other Hero character that lacks personality and development, he ends up looking like Kirito from SAO even tho he’s written as a deconstruction of that very trope.

Shirou is just an attempt to write a deep and complex character with the faulty and broken elements of the classic hero characters, but that attempt fails and he’s just the same as them.

(I’m only speaking about his depiction in the anime series and movie, the novel Shirou is different)

NinoNakano13 said:
So Emiya Shirou is probably one of the most controversial protagonists I’ve come across. He’s apparently disliked within the anime community but fairly popular amongst Visual Novel readers. I think I see the love for him as well as the hate, but most of the hate seems to boil down to “he’s annoying and Kiritsugu was better.” I think Kiritsugu is an amazing protagonist and a better character than Shirou, but they’re vastly distinct so I don’t understand why people compare them so much.

Now the quality of his character does vary immensely in my personal opinion. In Heaven’s Feel I think he’s a great character and in Unlimited Blade Works I think he’s quite good. His original Fate counterpart was a mediocre white knight type of character. I didn’t think that he was that good at all until I checked out the novels and I do think that the adaptations aren’t the best when it comes to depicting his character. The monologues do play a big part in expanding on him.

I certainly don’t think he’s some godly character and one of the greatest protagonists ever, but he’s actually a good deconstruction of a hero. I see why people prefer Archer, but I think Emiya has a lot of depth that’s simply lost in the adaptation.

This video does a pretty good job of explaining why so if anyone has the time to view it, they should.
https://youtu.be/4W8zwc-jz6M

Allen-DeltaG said:


Exactly, this is what makes shiro leagues above kiritsugu.



I disagree with some statements regarding kiritsugu. Kiri, is above average at best. It takes more than a few guns, edgy personalities and a tragic backstory, to actually be considered a better character than Shiro. if shiro is a 10/10 character then Kiri is probably a 7.5/10 character, if you want to wank it and bump it 8/10. Kiri is not psychologically explored, nor are his themes of heroism or utilitarianism explored. Where as shiro is explored heavily.

Shiro is not just a character, he is a philosophy, a narrative and a message. Shiro exists for the sole purpose of criticizing characters like Luffy, Natsu, Naruto, Deku, Gon, Etc. Idealistic characters. If a character had goals of being the wizard king, or the king of the pirates, or the hokage, and they achieve that dream, will it truly make them happy in the long run? will those characters be happy with the results regardless of what situations occur in the future? This is why Archer is a very important character when analyzing Shiro, hence why UBW was so important.

To actually fully understand shiro, not only must you read the VN but I also advise one to watch Kaleid Prisma Oath Under Snow (OUS). Why? Because while FSN shiro is a deconstruction of heroism, OUS is a deconstruction of FSN Shiro, and that's what fascinates me. To fully understand Shiro one must venture outside the main timeline to understand that Shiro isn't just a character, nor is he just a deconstruction. He is a fantastic deconstruction, I think calling him just "good" is a serious downplay on his character.

One should also take into consideration, what is a hero who doesn't regret any of his decisions? the answer is Mind of Steel Shiro (MOS Shiro). Many people thought this version of Shiro becomes Archer, but that's wrong, Archer is Archer because of his regrets. MOS Shiro is simply a killing machine with no shame or disappointment. A hallow machine who has no qualms of sacrificing others.

What makes Shiro better than kiri?
He has around 6 different characters that all trace back to one moment, the fire in fuyuki city, that is when the tale of Shiro Emiya was born. FSN Shiro, UBW Shiro, HF Shiro, OUS Shiro, MOS Shiro and Archer should all be treated as a single character and a single narrative. Kiritisugu simply isn't even close to the person that Shiro is as a whole. I'd even argue that Shiro might be the greatest anime character ever to have ever grazed this planet. He certainly deserves the top spot above mediocre characters like Luffy, Naruto, Deku, Tanjiro, Etc. And it isn't even close.

Some characters who can beat shiro though, Probably Rintaro Okabe, Touma Kamijou, Johan Liebert, Shogo Makishima, Char Azneble, Etc.

desusama said:
Shirou may be a good character in the visual novels but in the Unlimited Blade Works anime he's absolutely terrible. The show fails to convey his survivor's guilt being the reason for his extreme desire to be a hero and so we get a guy who wants to be a hero because his daddy said so. Instead of a lad who has no value for his life willingly throwing it away to save others at the drop of a hat we instead get him trying to rush out and fight Hercules and Gilgamesh for no sensible reason.
Don't get me started on how the lack of exploration of Shirou's mindset and motivations robs his conflict with Archer of any weight beyond "shonen protagonist rambles on about their ideals and somehow it works out"

KtKr said:


Anime couldn't make it more obvious that he's fucked up inside when Rin literally spells it out to the audience while Shirou makes crazy expressions



Only speedwatcher would not notice this.

Allen-DeltaG said:

Shiro is not just a character, he is a philosophy, a narrative and a message. Shiro exists for the sole purpose of criticizing characters like Luffy, Natsu, Naruto, Deku, Gon, Etc.

Tendo_GM said:

No... not even close...
Not even a single person thinks that T_T
The reason why people hate him is because he’s lifeless, has no personality and no character basis.
He’s written as an attempt to criticize basic protagonists who do good things just because they are good, Shirou is meant to be an answer to that while also being a character that is trying to be a hero just because that’s good, same as the others. But his intended purpose and character isn’t translated well at all, he just ends up being same as every other Hero character that lacks personality and development, he ends up looking like Kirito from SAO even tho he’s written as a deconstruction of that very trope.

Shirou is just an attempt to write a deep and complex character with the faulty and broken elements of the classic hero characters, but that attempt fails and he’s just the same as them.

(I’m only speaking about his depiction in the anime series and movie, the novel Shirou is different)

ssjokg said:
Also when Ayako tells him he doesnt smile and he gets ptsd flashbacks.

Then ep18-ep20 is just Archer and Shirou talking back and forth about their mindset and motives.

Yeah seems pretty unexplored/s

desusama said:


Good god, you mean they mentioned the protagonist being batshit insane in passing a total of two times across two seasons? And he made faces?
Shirou's character arc throughout UBW is people telling him he can't be a hero and him breaking the common sense of the universe to prove them wrong. The conflict between him and Archer boils down to Archer going "don't be a hero of justice you'll suffer" and Shirou going "how about I do it anyway" out of sheer shonen protagonist dumbassery. Then just like all the shonen protagonists he's supposedly better than the laws of the world warp to suit his ideals to the extent that he downloads free powerups with no drawbacks, holds his own against a master assassin that beat Saber's ass and last but not least defeats the most powerful regular class servant in existence in head on combat. His trauma and insanity are brought up in passing and never mentioned again and are so irrelevant to his character that if you ask most people they don't even know it's there.

KtKr said:


Anime couldn't make it more obvious that he's fucked up inside when Rin literally spells it out to the audience while Shirou makes crazy expressions



Only speedwatcher would not notice this.

ssjokg said:


Cry me a river.

You don't care about his characterization, just that he got "power ups".

His trauma is there across the entire show.

Episode 1 is all about him and his views that he got from Kiritsugu.
In ep2 his reaction to Kirei's reveal that the last war was the cuase of the fire.
Ayako's words in ep4
His refusal to speak about it when Saber asked him about his ideal.
His talk with Rin at the balcony in ep11
The "date" episode and Taiga's hostage situation in ep12.
His reaction to Ilya's death and Rin's words in ep16.
End of ep18 and episodes 19-20 are all about that.
His acceptance of everything in episode 24 before he used UBW.

And other more subtle scenes.

That you are salty about how projection works and Kuzuki's power along with you not understanding Gilgamesh's character(who in Zero defeated one Servant while he was ridiculed by the same Berserker twice.) isn't a problem with the character.

desusama said:


Calm down man, it's just a cartoon.
Just because a character has hidden subtext doesn't make them a good character. Yeah he's a sad boy with issues but he's a plot armored, uninteresting sad boy with issues.
Then again a majority of the Fate franchise is just teenagers with the personality of cardboard and weird ideals beating demigods so I'm not even mad.

DaddyDonovan said:


Did you read the vn? The anime doesn't handle him too well but he's great in the vn

ssjokg said:


I am not the one mad at non-existent powerlevels so....

Stay salty.

desusama said:


Lol. Sure man, you too.

Tendo_GM said:

I haven’t and I was quite clear that I am only talking about his depiction in the anime series and movies since the executions are totally different.
VN Shirou is not a part of this debate and my argument, after all, this is a thread posted on the movie discussion forum and source material discussions shouldn’t be a part of this.

DaddyDonovan said:

Thats Fair. in my opinion even in the films and ubw Shirou is still a decent character even if he isn't the s-tier character he was in the vn. Even in the movies Shirou still had the conflict between following what he wants and saving Sakura or following his ideal and killing Sakura. The movie even did a decent job of characterizing Shirou through his foil-like relationship with Kirei.

ssjokg said:

Remember everyone.
When you don't have arguments just laugh it off.

desusama said:


Good god, you mean they mentioned the protagonist being batshit insane in passing a total of two times across two seasons? And he made faces?
Shirou's character arc throughout UBW is people telling him he can't be a hero and him breaking the common sense of the universe to prove them wrong. The conflict between him and Archer boils down to Archer going "don't be a hero of justice you'll suffer" and Shirou going "how about I do it anyway" out of sheer shonen protagonist dumbassery. Then just like all the shonen protagonists he's supposedly better than the laws of the world warp to suit his ideals to the extent that he downloads free powerups with no drawbacks, holds his own against a master assassin that beat Saber's ass and last but not least defeats the most powerful regular class servant in existence in head on combat. His trauma and insanity are brought up in passing and never mentioned again and are so irrelevant to his character that if you ask most people they don't even know it's there.

Tendo_GM said:

I’m not so sure about that... Shirou was actually not even in the movie if you ask me, literally everything happened around him and it felt like he had 0 influence on the story.
And UBW Shirou was actually just a device to serve Archers character (even if it’s intended to be the other way around), his character just felt over exaggerated for the sake of archer and he kinda ruined the show because literally the whole show is about him, not a single thing happens that is not tied to him and that he isn’t part of. The focus on his character literally killed the show because he wasn’t even depicted good.

ssjokg said:
Every character is plot armored or else all antagonists would win in both shounen and seinen works.

Light in death note was getting help from the neutral Ryuk whenever the latter felt about it, and his whole career was saved by an umbrella.

Guts even way before the current arcs had plot armor. Or is Skull Knight descending like a true DEM not a plot armor?

Dr Tenma in Monster.

Of course Fate/Zero.

Talking aboit plot armor is pointless especially if it is justified.

@DaddyDonovan

He doesn't have any consequences in UBW from protecting stuff except from the first time against Kuzuki.

DaddyDonovan said:

Well the biggest consequence of his mindset is Archer, for now he keeps getting lucky but it won't stay that way obviously.

Emblemz said:

Agree with all of that except Gon. He specifically is very different from the others you listed in how he's characterized because the way the author juxtaposed his seemingly innocent exterior with total neutral worldview removed him from the standard template of that mc. Wouldn't say that idea is anywhere near as fleshed out as Shirou ofc.

Allen-DeltaG said:


Well let's come to a compromise, if Gon is considered something out of the ordinary, when it comes to shonen MCs, then one would have to look at anime (Specifically Shonen) not only as a storytelling medium but as a cultural phenomenon. We would have to find where this trope (Of the generic shonen MC) initially started from. While this would be to difficult to track, I took the easy way and understood that HxH is inspired by DBZ. This one fact that is objective. Togashi as a writer is clearly inspired by DBZ.

The second point is to see what made people treat Gon as a shonen MC, different from the other MCs that I mentioned. Simply put, it was during his rage during the Chimera Ant Arc. He went from a happy go lucky child to someone who fell into darkness. So extreme to the point, he threatened an innocent person. People see this as unique and some take it far to the point they would call this a deconstruction or a subversion of tropes.

The truth is, if this is the reason to call Gon different from Generic Shonen MCs, then believe it or not, it's actually not all that new. Several characters are similar to gon.

(a) namek saga goku, Goku descends into madness and achieves super saiyan. He gets so angry he even threatens his own son.

(b) Gohan during cell saga, he was willing to let everyone get hurt just so he could play around with cell

(c) this one will be a surprise you but Inuyasha is very similar to Gon. But not in the sense, that you think. Gon goes from happy go lucky (Hunter Exam arc) to darkness (Chimera ant) to happy go lucky again (Election Arc). Inuyasha is similar to Gon's character from Chimera ant to election arc.Inuyasha goes from pessimestic to idealistic.

(d) sosuke sagara from Fullmetal Panic (probably one of the most underrated characters in shonen), from the beginning, he was neutral, to falling into darkness then he becomes idealistic (which is the closest to Gon's pattern)

(e) while not the protagonist, Yukine from noragami, is bratty (neutral) then becomes a responsible (Idealistic) to falling into darkness (recent arc made noragami a masterpiece, imo)

(f) Allen walker from D.Gray-Man, is incredibly idealistic, uses this idealism as a coping mechanicsm due to his trauma. Nea and his trauma make him fall into darkness.

(g) Kenshin Himua, during kyoto arc, he falls into darkness, his dark past comes back to hunt him, as a merciless killing machine. This past of his, conflicts with his current pacifist self.

I have several other examples I could go into, but I think I got enough examples, for now.

However, be that is it may be, Gon isn't as different from Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, Tanjiro, Deku, as many people like to believe. Example, Gon becomes happy go lucky instead of developing a coping mechanism, or a trauma from the chimera ant arc, Gon's character just resets when he reunites with his dad. Like luffy after Marineford, or Naruto after jiraya's death, etc. Gon falls back on the main tropes he was meant to subvert.

Sorry for the length paragraphs.

desusama said:


Good god, you mean they mentioned the protagonist being batshit insane in passing a total of two times across two seasons? And he made faces?
Shirou's character arc throughout UBW is people telling him he can't be a hero and him breaking the common sense of the universe to prove them wrong. The conflict between him and Archer boils down to Archer going "don't be a hero of justice you'll suffer" and Shirou going "how about I do it anyway" out of sheer shonen protagonist dumbassery. Then just like all the shonen protagonists he's supposedly better than the laws of the world warp to suit his ideals to the extent that he downloads free powerups with no drawbacks, holds his own against a master assassin that beat Saber's ass and last but not least defeats the most powerful regular class servant in existence in head on combat. His trauma and insanity are brought up in passing and never mentioned again and are so irrelevant to his character that if you ask most people they don't even know it's there.

holds his own against a master assassin that beat Saber's ass and last but not least defeats the most powerful regular class servant in existence in head on combat

glemaraille said:




This^ Shirou is maybe a good character in the novel, but the UBW one was seriously bad. How in the world he managed to defeat

Mr_Srijan said:
Lmao, Emiya Shirou was the reason HF 3 was ruined for me. The monologues do not play any part in expanding on his character. All of his monologues and conversation with Kirei seem like a bunch of bullshit. I can understand that VN readers love his character coz in there his character is more deep and philosophical (that's what they said), but in the anime adaptation his character is pretty shallow. And when a shallow character talks this much, not only does he become annoying but he also ruins the show he is a part of.

ssjokg said:




This makes no sense.

One problem VN fans have with Shirou in adaptations is that he doesnt talk much or his lack of monologues.

People will really make shit up to hate on this guy.

Mr_Srijan said:


Lmao, try again and properly pay attention to actually what he says. Top tier bullshit. I am talking about the conversation he has with Archer in UBW and Kirei in HF 3. If you don't know the context and what he actually thinks (which I guess has been shown in the VN), then everything he says tantamounts to zero. I got so irritated with those pointless dialogue that it became unbearable to even enjoy the show to its full potential.

Dumb fanboys will really make shit up to love this guy.

Nick-Knight said:
In the VN he and I hate him because of this and since it is canon the hate is not uncalled for him. He has a pretty design and some husbando vibes about him.

Mr_Srijan said:
conversation with Kirei seem like a bunch of bullshit.