Volume 7 Discussion

Rhohen said:
Now just have to deal with the empty void that I get for having finished such a great story...

IceFox95 said:
Questions guys: Why exactly did maria forget everything every time she used the flawed bliss? What was the point of preserving the chasing between her and "O"?

Arachnophobic said:


Wow. I just finished marathon-ing through all seven volumes, and I'm not sure whether I can answer this. I sure do feel stupid. Let me clear my thoughts and attempt to answer..

Why did Maria forget about every person (and people related to that person) she incorporated into Flawed Bliss?

I might be wrong (and I'd love if someone corrected me on this), but I don't think we ever get an explicit explanation for this. It's just stated as something that happens, right from Vol. 1, and comes to the fore in Vols. 5 and 6. If I have to think of a reason, I think it's tied to the origin of Flawed Bliss: When Maria wished for 'Bliss', she also wanted to run away from her past and the sorrow of losing her beloved sister and parents. She wanted to forget it all - and so she did. At that point, the act of her wish being granted become tied with her forgetting everything about the person she granted the wish to.

What's the point of preserving Maria's endless chase of "O"?

It came as a part of Flawed Bliss. because of Maria's inherent skepticism. If Maria actually did manage to chase down O and fix her box, it wouldn't stayed 'flawed' anymore. That's something the zeroth Maria could never imagine happening, so as a part of her wish, she only chased the ideal, but could never really reach it.

IceFox95 said:
About the first question, I think Maria forgets everything to run away from the fact the her sister is dead and no longer alive. That way she can "deify" her or say that she was possessed by her. Otherwise, she would not be able to live with the fact she is empty and no one needs her. Perceiving herself as "Aya Otonashi" grants her a purpose in life, and remembering that she is actually dead, takes away that purpose.

xzysc said:
Note: spoilers ahead, and also I think I might, if I'm correct in my thought process, ruin the ending somewhat for those who really liked it.

I have a problem: if the entire romantic premise between Kazuki and Maria relied on an emotional or even existential symmetry between the two (i.e. both are the other's sole reason for being etc.), how are we supposed to understand the fact that Kazuki was practically dragged into the whole shebang in the first place by Maria's flawed wish?

To put it another way, just like how there is a zeroth Maria that exists prior to all boxes isn't there also a zeroth Kazuki who, if not for Maria's wish, would have possessed a different set of priorities and sense of being? And if thats the case, the entire ending -"happy" as it is (which is also ironic, seeing that Maria's relinquishment of her former wish actually accomplishes it) - seems to be predicated on the fact that Kazuki simply doesn't seem to care in any way (even after he finds out the truth from O in volume 5) about being manipulated by Maria's wishes since day one. So in fact, the only thing we know about Kazuki before Maria intervened is that he's super gentle to Yannagi -and we only know that because it was deemed significant by Maria and it ended up being the single factor that got Kazuki into the whole mess.

This is all to say, this series is completely oriented towards Maria while Kazuki, interestingly, is an empty vessel who exists solely for Maria to achieve her real wish (i.e. to find a meaning to life). And thus, we arrive at the end of the tale with the strange discovery that Kazuki is in fact the flawless "box" of the story.

But what about the zeroth Kazuki? How would he feel about everything?

Of course, all this is not to say that the novel was not meticulously written and have some truly superb plot/character development. I am also aware that the passive/oblivious/normal-to-the-point-of-actually-being-extraordinary kind of male protagonist is quite prevalent for the sake of reader-identification.

I guess it's just that all along the final volume I had hope that the author would address what I see as a not insignificant gap in the protagonist's psyche instead of just asking us to take for granted Kazuki's selfless (like literally as if he doesn't even have a self or identity that's distinct from Maria's influence) devotion to Maria.

What do you guys think?

Freestyle80 said:
after all the endless praise comments i see(which is fine, not complaining) i'm glad there was atleast a few who grasped this, this has been bothering me since the beginning too, Kazuki literally suffered for 1000 years for no reason but the selfish wish of Maria.

Freestyle80 said:
on that note, man Daiya must be one of the most annoying characters for me, esp i dont undestand what Kazuki has to apologize to him for? it should be the other way around, because of his emo insecure ways he dragged his friend to his bullshit and led him to 1000 years of torture.

Freestyle80 said:
If the "Flawed Bliss" box didnt manipulate Kazuki like it did, in my view, Kazuki probably would've fallen in love with Mogi eventually or heck he could've come across Yuuri somehow and it wouldnt take long for him to charm her either and go from there, her character itself meshes the best with Kazuki and he brings the honest side in her.

Freestyle80 said:


after all the endless praise comments i see(which is fine, not complaining) i'm glad there was atleast a few who grasped this, this has been bothering me since the beginning too, Kazuki literally suffered for 1000 years for no reason but the selfish wish of Maria.

It also felt to me that the author doesnt like his main character, he prefers Daiya which is why he tries to force him in a lot of times, looks to me initially the 'hero' of the story would've been Daiya but the editor made him change that since that wouldnt work well with this story and would be unnatural

on that note, man Daiya must be one of the most annoying characters for me, esp i dont undestand what Kazuki has to apologize to him for? it should be the other way around, because of his emo insecure ways he dragged his friend to his bullshit and led him to 1000 years of torture. Maria might've disappeared either way but wish he wrote that differently instead of using a 'friend' of Kazuki's, thank god Haruaki stayed true to him till the end, he's the real bro.

If the "Flawed Bliss" box didnt manipulate Kazuki like it did, in my view, Kazuki probably would've fallen in love with Mogi eventually or heck he could've come across Yuuri somehow and it wouldnt take long for him to charm her either and go from there, her character itself meshes the best with Kazuki and he brings the honest side in her.

I myself wanted a happy ending for both of them at first but the events of the latter half of vol. 6 and before the epilogue of vol.7 changed my mind completely, it was heart-breaking to read, in Dark Souls terms Kazuki died and died and died and slowly 'Hollowed' but because of that stupid role forced upon him he neither could die nor could he forget and was trapped in that loop. That bothers me a lot but whatever its his story not mine anyway

At the very least we saw him regain his sanity towards the end and that was nice to see and to know that he can most probably go back to his 'everyday life'. This was an interesting read for sure, one that will always linger in my mind but definitely not 10/10 that everyone says because of the problems i mentioned above but 8.5/10 sounds about right to me.

Now to go read a happier story ;c



PS. Its also too bad Daiya lived but i'll imagine him getting permanent brain damage to his already damaged brain ;d and yes i really dont like him.

LightBladeNova said:


If you'd like to see some more criticism, then here's mine (because the endless praise everywhere is honestly annoying, even though I gave HakoMari a 9/10 myself):

(Note: I have nothing against Mikage, and I'm not trying to badmouth him. I'm just trying to offer hopefully reasonable critique of his work, since almost everyone else here is heaping nothing but praise. And I'm not trying to be contrarian just for the sake of going against what's popular; it's just that too much positive circlejerk gets boring after a while, we could use some more variety in opinions for discussion. And obviously, this is all just my opinion.)

Some of my main problems with HakoMari include the awkward dialogue/prose at many points, the tendency of several characters to over-explain things and sometimes speak in similar voices, and the lack of subtlety (especially in the philosophical ramblings of characters in Volumes 5 and 6). Though I guess those 3 things are all related to each other.

I dunno if this is just a problem with the translation, but often times, the way the characters speak feels so... stilted? Mechanical? Generally, the prose kinda reads like fanfiction. There's also very little description so it's sometimes difficult for me to feel grounded in the setting and events that are happening. Furthermore, I feel that HakoMari does too much "telling", over-explaining thought processes and psychology in too much of a tedious, expositional manner that, again, the writing feels stiff and mechanical as a result, with a lack of subtlety in execution.

And here are some spoiler criticisms (not all the criticisms I have...):

*Volume 2 is straight up bad, with poor mystery and lackluster antagonists who drop out of the story afterwards, and generally poor plot. Volume 2 by itself already prevents HakoMari from being some godly amazing masterpiece, in my opinion. Granted, Vol2 does have some decent relationship-building for Kazuki and Maria, but that's pretty much the only thing going for it.*

Almost everyone has some kind of (melo)dramatic school (love) drama backstory... it gets tedious and repetitive after a while, not to mention kinda cringe-worthy. Where are the adult characters and their distorted wishes? That would've been interesting to explore, for more variety. Anyway, there was this one subplot in Volumes 3/4, for example, about a love triangle involving Iroha, Yuuri, and some random throwaway guy, which was pretty ridiculous. Seriously, the guy didn't even get a name. I know it was to contribute to the whole jealousy theme going on, but it felt like a superficial add-on and frankly, these are rather generic, uninteresting backstories anyway. Oh, and I remember a scene where Iroha, like, chops off her finger or something to show her leadership resolve? Pretty over-the-top... to the point it almost comes off as funny instead of serious. It's kinda like one of those overly dramatic scenes in Death Note, maybe the "SAKUJO SAKUJO SAKUJO!" scenes, lol. But yeah, not a fan of it.

The school is literally the only concrete setting in HakoMari lol, with everywhere else being vague background blurs with little description...

Kazuki is honestly a pretty bland protagonist, especially from Vol1 to the end of Vol3. You may argue that him being so generic and "ordinary" is intentional as it serves to make him a symbol of everyday life or something, but I don't think that's a good enough excuse. "Everyday life" doesn't mean the protagonist has to be plain; there are plenty of people in our real-world "everyday life" with more vibrant and interesting personalities. Take Kyon from the Haruhi series, for example. He also appreciates and enjoys his ordinary life, though he's obviously not (unhealthily) obsessed with it to the extent that Kazuki is, but Kyon is a much more interesting protagonist in terms of thought process, dialogue, and personality.

In Vol4, Kazuki gets somewhat better by being more proactive and not relying on Maria all the time, but that kinda gets undermined by his frankly unnatural development in Vol5-6. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think his gradual insanity development is written that well, even though I admit it makes him more interesting. Again, I just don't think it's a natural transition from Vol4; his change feels like it's due more to contrived plot "design" as a result of Maria's box influence rather than a more human approach to psychology. Basically, it's like "Oh, maybe I can make Kazuki crazier and throw in some convenient supernatural explanation so he's not bland anymore." And that's not the only thing: eventually, most of Kazuki's character revolves almost entirely around Maria, to the point that I remember Kazuki much more for his designed insanity and obsession with her rather than his own individual merits as a character. As someone said earlier, Kazuki's somewhat of an empty vessel without Maria. Not to mention how I personally don't see that much romantic chemistry between them. Maria, in terms of personality and individuality, is much more compelling and interesting than Kazuki; she has her own individual character arc that doesn't revolve around him. What I desire from romantic pairings in fiction is for the two characters to be around equally competent/complex/compelling, but Kazuki-Maria is quite lopsided in Maria's favor. So yeah, I wasn't invested in this romance so much, unfortunately.

[HakoMari Vol3] Touji Kijima and Yanagi Nana. Lol, what the hell was this all about? They were introduced in Volume 3 as part of Kazuki's backstory, with Kijima being his best friend and Nana being his first love, but I really don't think any of this was necessary. I mainly remember more melodrama with "drinking tears" and stuff... jeezus. This is what I mean when I say the execution of scenes feels over-the-top sometimes. Admittedly, if I recall correctly, I think Nana had something to do with Kazuki's Empty Box, but that was literally the only relevance. As individual characters, Nana and Kijima were pretty useless, with like no lines of dialogue for either of them, and this is further damning because they were part of the *protagonist's* backstory. It also doesn't help that Nana was hyped up to be someone important by "O" at the end of Volume 4, when "O" took on Nana's appearance for some odd reason. So yeah, basically, this whole thing should've been cut; explaining the origins of Kazuki's Empty Box could've been executed differently and better.

[HakoMari Vol4] Okay, so Kamiuchi is a crazy sadistic high school kid who's fine with killing AND rape cuz dark edginess, and the entire reason for the Game of Idleness is because he was f*cking bored. Just great... that's literally the only possible reason that someone could have for thinking such a screwed up distorted wish too, how convenient... how contrived. And Kamiuchi also had a pretty cliche, cringey school backstory. The thing is, I'm not inherently against high school melodrama, and I mean no offense to anyone suffering difficult hardship, of course, but HakoMari... I dunno, to me, just the execution of the writing here feels juvenile and exaggerated to the point that it's almost hard to take seriously. Probably has to do with the poor prose and over-the-top feel of some of the dialogue and scenes.

[HakoMari Vol6] Miyuki Karino being the owner of the Wish-Crushing Cinema box. What? Some trivial flashback character with, again, like no development and no lines of dialogue is the main culprit for this entire Vol 5-6 arc? Seriously? Talk about anticlimactic and out-of-left-field jarring... and then Karino says absolutely nothing even when she shows up near the end of Vol 6 and places her hand on Daiya's shoulder. The whole reveal is just so... underwhelming. Kokone Kirino should've been the owner.

[HakoMari Vol5-6] I see mentions of prostitution, rape, AIDS, and suicide, but really it feels like they're just superficially there to make the story seem more thematically dark (edgy), especially since random no-name side characters (all female, to boot) are the ones suffering those issues. Anyone can write this stuff in and have a character (in this case, Daiya) lament the horrors/tragedies of the world or something; this kind of execution just feels shallow though, lacking maturity and deeper exploration.

[HakoMari Vol7] That random Kazuki sediment thingy was just a plot device to explain stuff to Maria, and in a very dry, detached manner, too. Convenient and lacking energy.

[HakoMari Vol7] Aya's backstory in particular was pretty damn cringe-worthy, with some newly introduced throwaway characters. I remember stuff about a burning house, some kid going crazy in front of Aya, some teacher falling in love with her or something, and some other weird, over-the-top stuff. Plus, the development came too late for me to really care about Aya. I don't think she was a really compelling character either way, since most of her backstory described her more exaggerated, seemingly superhuman parts, which is unfortunate for the main antagonist.

By the way, it feels to me that the plot is less about a theme of "wishes" (meaning, exploration, possible dangers/advantages, etc) and more about "Hey, what kind of contrived wishes can I come up with that I can arbitrarily morph into psychological thrillers? Cuz yes, *all distorted wishes* should result in psychological thrillers, amirite? Basically, Mikage's plot ideas come to him very conveniently; he can essentially tweak whatever wish he wants into almost whatever cool psychological thriller mystery plot he wants, just because. For example, somehow Kamiuchi's wish gets distorted into a death game with VEEERY specific and complicated rules and layout. Why? Did Kamiuchi think specifically about any of that? I don't think so. Another example, somehow Karino's wish gets distorted into a f*cking cinema that plays movies/recordings of very precise memories from Daiya's past. Why? Did Karino think specifically about any of that? I don't think so. So in general, the whole wish-distortion idea makes for very, very, VERY flexible writing, to the point of being overly convenient and contrived, kind of "gimmicky". Promoting an oh-so-deep theme of "be careful what you wish for"? Nah, not really, it's just that any wish you make is very conveniently distorted into whatever Mikage wants so the plot can actually be interesting somehow and screw you over in the most insane ways.

^Granted, I'm sure most people wouldn't really consider this a problem. But like, why can't there be a "good" distorted wish? A supernatural wish shouldn't be inherently bad, you know.

Oh, and here's some terribly written dialogue:

[HakoMari Vol1] "I absolutely refuse to abandon you to solitude!"

^Kazuki (to Mogi). LOOOOOL WTF. Seriously, imagine a modern-day teenager saying that out loud to another person, it's hilariously chuuni-sounding. Using "absolutely", "refuse", "abandon", and friggin "solitude" is really bad word choice, it's over-the-top and pretentious. Just say "I'm not leaving you alone like this!" and be done with it... it's still a tad cliche, but at least it sounds a helluva lot more natural than the original. (Granted, this may be due to some poor translation, but regardless, you're all apparently fully accepting of this kind of poor dialogue, which I cannot overlook... at the very least, I rarely ever see anyone here criticizing the prose, so yeah)

[HakoMari Vol5] "It’s true that many people who think the death penalty is an easy answer are idiots. But even if you have an informed opinion after evaluating the sinners, the correct answer is still the death penalty. I know I’m being presumptuous here, having killed people in the ‘Game of Idleness’ myself, but I can still say with conviction that those guys are truly different from those of us who possess common sense. There really are assholes who can’t be pitied and make you want to vomit! You’d be surprised by their ignorance, their complete lack of empathy, and the crap that comes out of their mouths! It’s people like that who commit crimes. They are simply unable to adapt to society. Just take this guy here: guess what he said when I asked him if he pitied the girls he raped? ‘But I can’t hold back,’ ‘they were unlucky, running into me when I’m feeling like this,’ ‘I know I’m doing something wrong, but what can I do about it?’ Do you get what I’m saying? Don’t you feel the repulsiveness of those statements? These guys never learn. They don’t understand how much their victims suffer. They don’t realize what they have done. They have no scruples about privileging their own desires above the rights of everyone else. I now realize that they are born as scum - they can’t escape their destiny."

^Iroha. Like, holy shit... I physically cringe when reading that. Ranty, pseudo-philosophical monologue that pretends to be deep but actually isn't, and it's also way too wordy, too non-subtle (seriously, it's so in-your-face), too overdramatic, and too stilted in delivery. And Iroha's rant is just a pretty standard, simple perspective to take, it's not really thought-provoking at all. -*Something like this can't be just a translation problem, it's most likely a flaw with the original Japanese prose.*-

[HakoMari Vol6] "It was inevitable! Do you think that it wouldn’t have any effect on me when people honestly think that I’m a wicked devil? Even worse, I used to be a shy and silent girl, don’t you understand what that means? Do you think I could in all honesty still think positively of myself after being treated like shit, burned with cigarettes and told off as a devil, a bitch, a whore? I can’t! I couldn’t! Can you imagine a whole bunch of people doing horrible things to you? Who are seriously thinking that you’re just scum who deserves it? Of course I would start to think so, too! Of course I would think that I deserve it! That was the only way to put up with all that stuff! Those marks have stolen all my self- confidence, self-respect, and everything I hold dear!"

^Kokone. Thank you very much, Kokone, for *explaining your psychology in such excruciating, expository detail*, dear God... again, not subtle at all, and very in-your-face. And once again, something like this can't be just a translation problem. Like, I know teenagers can rant and sound whiny, but the dialogue just comes off pretentious and does not feel natural, and from a storytelling perspective, the writing here is just too heavy-handed and unskillful.

And there's plenty more poorly written dialogue scattered throughout the series...

You said:
Why do I feel that the whole wall of text you put here can be summarized to "the writing is too chuuni for me"? All the characteristic you put are those that's commonly found in chuunige. Aside from translations.

LightBladeNova said:


Because as I said, I think the writing tends to be too expository and lack subtlety? Characters may over-explain stuff or come off as somewhat exaggerated, like with the Iroha and Kokone quotes I posted (and again, with those quotes, they're likely not just translation issues). I'd appreciate it if you don't try to reduce my entire argument to simply a chuuni complaint. I was fine with Dies Irae, which is like the ultimate chuunige, so yeah. It's just that HakoMari's writing execution sometimes feels poor to me, because the story is supposed to be a more sensitive and serious approach to character psychology and behavior. And so the occasional overexplanation, lack of subtlety, and over-the-top moments feel jarring to me in the tonal context of the story. The high school melodrama thing is a more subjective criticism on my part; I just thought a lot of it was kind of generic and uninteresting, and it got tedious and repetitive (since, again, almost every character had something like that). I don't think that's a chuuni criticism. And anyway, there's such thing as poorly written chuuni.

And Volume 2 is still legit bad.

But hey, you don't have to agree with me. I see you rated HakoMari a 10/10 so I imagine you're a big fan, but hearing only positive praise all the time isn't really fun or interesting. I just tried to offer my own hopefully reasonable criticism to give a different perspective for discussion.

I can give credit where it's due though, of course, since I gave HakoMari a 9/10 myself. The main reasons are because the mysteries and plot twists were all quite well developed and logical, and aside from the occasional over-the-top hiccups in characterization, all the relevant characters got good development, with Daiya and Maria being standouts. Despite the prose problems, the story is still just a pretty addictive read, with nice pacing and not many dull moments. And Volume 7 has Kazuki's insane emotional journey (though Aya's backstory is still meh, in my opinion) along with a really great ending. It's hard to find an ending that's so emotionally satisfying.

So yeah, there you go. I'm not some hater lol.

You said:
I was meant about the whole violent melodrama and backstories though, and yeah it's being expository at times? Now I wonder why you're okay with Dies Irae but not with Kazuki on first 3 volumes because Ren and Kazuki vol 1-3 has little difference. Both are extreme daily life lover to the point that it defines most of their characterization.

Volume 2 is the weakest, we all know it lol.

And yep give it a 10/10. It's not like I give it only to a "perfect" work so I give quite a lot of it. But yeah it's one of my favorites, although not the most.

Not sure on what kinds of subtlety you wanted to though.

LightBladeNova said:


Well, the melodrama's not really violent most of the time; again, I'm just saying that it's repetitive and mildly tedious to keep going through all these generic high school backstories (all involving some kind of romance) for almost all the characters. Too much cliche, uninspired school-related/teen-romance-related drama, not enough original variety.

About Ren vs. Kazuki, here's the thing:

1.) I'm not a big fan of Ren either, he's kinda okay to me. But Ren doesn't make up all of Dies Irae anyway. My favorite thing about the VN is how interesting and entertaining a lot of the *other* characters are, especially the antagonists.

2.) Even though I'm not a big fan of Ren, I can say he's more interesting than Kazuki as an individual character at least, because while they're both pretty obsessed with their everyday lives, Ren has a more sophisticated philosophy behind his obsession, with some deeper thoughts on the subject, like for example, his wish for time to stop so he can enjoy living in his present ordinary life without fear of the unknown (foreknowledge vs. unknown), as well as his appreciation for the beauty of "ephemeral moments", the fleeting nature of life. I don't recall Kazuki really having this kind of explored depth behind his daily life obsession.

3.) Even without the daily life philosophy, Ren still has a more defined personality than Kazuki; Ren can be somewhat distant from others, he can be stubborn and sharp-tongued when expressing his opinions/convictions, he can be kinda cynical, and he just has more active vitality than Kazuki, who's more passive/reactive and ordinary (at least until Vol4).

Yes, Vol2 is the weakest, and is probably the main reason why I'm not giving HakoMari a 10/10.

As for subtlety, I already gave the quote examples from Iroha and Kokone... those are way too expository and heavy-handed in delivery, not subtle at all. A lot of the time, HakoMari tends to focus too much on "telling" psychology or thought processes or reasoning in excessive detail, probably due in part to the lack of narrative description. It's kind of mechanical writing.

Again, if you don't agree, then that's fine. Simply put, I just don't find HakoMari as "OMG BEST THING EVER" amazing as so many other people here seem to think. I feel the same way for Steins;Gate and Muv-Luv Alternative. I never tend to fanboy about anything, I try to be more balanced when possible.

grandy_UiD said:
This was my first light novel. I enjoyed it but don't think it's quite as amazing as some people seem to think.

The main problem I had with the series was the relationship between Kazuki and Maria. For the longest time it just felt so fake and forced. Yeah, they spent that eternity together in the Rejecting Classroom and that's supposed to make them closer to each other than anyone else. But I just didn't feel it. There was just no chemistry between them, their interactions somehow lacked any kind of warmth and emotion (might also be because Kazuki was so unbelievably bland for most of the series). In my opinion it wasn't really "love" but just a really unhealthy and weird obsession with each other. Anyway, I didn't buy it and could never shake this thought off throughout the entire series, which kinda diminished my enjoyment. (As far as the romance department goes I preferred the Mogi X Kazuki pairing)

Also the Kokone x Daiya relationship was MUCH more interesting and emotional.


That being said, I quite liked the series overall and rate it 8/10.

Freestyle80 said:


after all the endless praise comments i see(which is fine, not complaining) i'm glad there was atleast a few who grasped this, this has been bothering me since the beginning too, Kazuki literally suffered for 1000 years for no reason but the selfish wish of Maria.

It also felt to me that the author doesnt like his main character, he prefers Daiya which is why he tries to force him in a lot of times, looks to me initially the 'hero' of the story would've been Daiya but the editor made him change that since that wouldnt work well with this story and would be unnatural

on that note, man Daiya must be one of the most annoying characters for me, esp i dont undestand what Kazuki has to apologize to him for? it should be the other way around, because of his emo insecure ways he dragged his friend to his bullshit and led him to 1000 years of torture. Maria might've disappeared either way but wish he wrote that differently instead of using a 'friend' of Kazuki's, thank god Haruaki stayed true to him till the end, he's the real bro.

If the "Flawed Bliss" box didnt manipulate Kazuki like it did, in my view, Kazuki probably would've fallen in love with Mogi eventually or heck he could've come across Yuuri somehow and it wouldnt take long for him to charm her either and go from there, her character itself meshes the best with Kazuki and he brings the honest side in her.

I myself wanted a happy ending for both of them at first but the events of the latter half of vol. 6 and before the epilogue of vol.7 changed my mind completely, it was heart-breaking to read, in Dark Souls terms Kazuki died and died and died and slowly 'Hollowed' but because of that stupid role forced upon him he neither could die nor could he forget and was trapped in that loop. That bothers me a lot but whatever its his story not mine anyway

At the very least we saw him regain his sanity towards the end and that was nice to see and to know that he can most probably go back to his 'everyday life'. This was an interesting read for sure, one that will always linger in my mind but definitely not 10/10 that everyone says because of the problems i mentioned above but 8.5/10 sounds about right to me.

Now to go read a happier story ;c



PS. Its also too bad Daiya lived but i'll imagine him getting permanent brain damage to his already damaged brain ;d and yes i really dont like him.

SteelHard said:


I finished the LN yesterday and it only took me 2-3 days so everything is still fresh in my mind so let me tell you this:

In no point in the story do we get told that Kazuki WAS FORCED to save Maria, nor do we get told that Maria's wish forces him to save her, if it did then his success would be pre determined and her box would be perfect.


The thing is that people are getting too focused on Kazuki's actions and not the actual reasoning for them, yes, he is insane, yes he loves Maria, yes he worships Maria, yes he would kill every single person in the world for Maria and yes he is her knight.

However ever since the very first volume we're always told that he was peculiar, hence why 'O' took interest in him, to begin with, he wasn't Maria's knight and yet his desire to accomplish is goal is what made 'O' take an interest in him and it's exactly why Daiya tells him that he feels so distant almost to the point of not being considered a human -- No human could ever aim towards a goal and keep going for it even after literally hundreds of years, and yet, he still did it.


The point is that Kazuki ever since the beginning was unnatural, his willpower was superhuman.


As was explained, he wasn't always Maria's knight, as he and Maria became closer she started to depend on him, she started to grow feelings for him even though she wasn't aware of them or despite suppressing them, this can be seen as early as volume 3 when she tells him to never let her go and to save her, as she became closer to him so did her feeligns thus the real "Maria" started becoming "stronger" and actually believing that she could be saved hence why Kazuki became her Knight, however we were not told that he was ever forced to save her at any costs, HE himself is the one that decides so after he notices how much he has depended on her ever since the rejecting classroom and thus he decided to become her knight in the death game long long before we're even introduced the whole empty box & him actually being Maria's Knight based on her wish.



TLDR;
Kazuki was not forced to do anything.
Maria's Wish didn't force him to save her and sacrifice everything and everyone
Kazuki unnatural willpower was always there since volume 1
His willpower was what made him decide to save Maria at any costs even long before we're introduced the whole Empty box & his Knight duty.

Freestyle80 said:


go read it again, u missed out so many obvious plot points

the MC was not in love with Maria, The only reason he could remember her was because he was already influenced by her 'box' by the time the Rejecting Classroom came into existence

The only reason he helped her to that extent is because of her unconscious selfish wish of a 'knight' that would save her. This was explained clearly in the novel, how could u miss this? No i aint going to re read and point out where, go do it yourself

And u say willpower? U think it was willpower that made him do that? haha no

Each time he died and each time he almost forgot his purpose, the box forcefully reminded him of his sole duty, even when he doesnt even remember her name he knows that there is someone he HAS to save, its not a want, thats what he is more or less 'programmed' to do now. You saw the terrible power of boxes Vol.2 and how it could influence people. Taking over a body, taking over control like its no big deal, same shit here.

And you can confirm this towards the end when all Kazuki did was bash a wall, he had no will, he was just carrying out a action that was forced upon him.

So yes in conclusion,It is very clear the power of boxes compelled him to do all that insane stuff in vol 6 and vol 7. He isnt the type of character to do those stuff.

ciastos said:

I never liked Yuuri, but I warmed up to her because of her epilogue.

Freestyle80 said:

Wrong, nowhere in the novel it tells you that he is forced to save her just because he is his knight, that's what he says to himself that he will be her knight and sacrifice anything and everything for her, Maria herself chose him to be her knight after she got close to him, it gave him the power to destroy boxes but it did not force him to change, in fact, NONE of the boxes forced ANYONE to change, it just forced them into certain situation, the only box that comes remotely close to being able to control other people is Daiya's but even that requires him to perform certain actions to control them (step on their shadow) and requires him to pretty much absorb their sin, and we're explained that they can be control with his box, however we're never told anything even remotely close to that from Maria's box despite having knowledge of her box ever since volume 1.

Not only that but following your logic would mean that his fate & the box fate was preordained, are you implying that the box was created with the purpose of eventually no matter what it would end up being destroyed?

None of the boxes had such a fate, they all were destroyed due to external forces not because the box made itself be destroyed, doesn't make sense to me.


Already during volume 1 he showed signs of developing amorous affection towards Maria despiting saying he loved the other girl (whos name I can't remember right now) the signs kept getting stronger and stronger as the volumes kept progressing, just because he doesn't says "I love you" it doesn't mean that he didn't love her, actions are worth more than words.

"And u say willpower? U think it was willpower that made him do that? haha no"
Yes, since the start of volume 1 it's said that Kazuki is very different from most people, that it feels like he's not even human and it's the exact reason why O was interested in him long before he was even Maria's knight, it was even said in volume 4 or 5 that his willpower was not human that he would always reach his goal and would never quit