Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei Episode 14 Discussion

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Nidhoeggr said:
He is not only spiteful, he is downright racist and has an ultra-nationalistic worldview as well. Mahouka is like a Tea Party member writing Harry Potter, except in boring and with waaaaaay more exposition.
I remember that map from one of the earlier episodes where Korea and China were the only red countries and Japan managed to get back some...controversial territories. Not only that, but "evil Chinese" people are behind most of the antagonists so far. I won't eve get into the whole messages about equality in this show... It is very apologetic in that regard and that is a toxic message to send to the people.

Humm, you know just because he is an elitist doesn't make him racist. And I would be careful with even calling him an elitist. Tatsuya definitely is, but remember that Tatsuya doesn't have emotions: strip anyone of compassion and empathy and you get such pragmatism (think Vulcans).

Given that the entire premise of this show is that magicians are the future's weapons, that there has been wars is sort of a requirement, and that Japan's two largest and closest neighbors are its enemies is less nationalistic than it is realistic. Who else would it be? France?

Using the Tongs instead of the Yakuza is a bit of a better argument, but the writer did state "Hong Kong" as opposed to China (and Hong Kong is the traditional base of the Tongs) and it ties into the whole "Yokohama" motiff (as you probably know Yokohama is most famous for its Chinatown). So that makes absolute sense as well (though that they would try to "fix" the match doesn't).

And you sort of left out that the biggest antagonist so far has been Japanese (Crimson Prince)?

Jul 6, 2014 5:19 PM

#120

nina4life

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China and Russia make sense as enemies, thanks to their history with them and their location.
What slightly bothers me is the name: New Soviet Union.

Why, oh why, is it that? Russia would suffice. A dangerous enemy indeed.
Talking about history will almost always lead to one conclussion, Soviet Union was evil. Period. That is how people view CCCP. As something evil.
My problem with New Soviet Union stems not from Russia as enemy (all Hollywood movies do it, and I watch those) but with name making them "eviler". That name serves no other purpose than to make them bigger villain and force of evil.
When you give that name to a country you brand it as a country of no redeemable qualities. It is evil and must be dealt with with extreme prejudice.

Hence my sarcastic comment about Fourth Reich. Germany doesn't sound intimidating enough.

I don't know what author is like, if he is nationalist, racist or whatever, nor do I care. I am just bothered with his choice as nautral viewer. I live thousands of miles away from both Japan and Russia. There is no need to villainify (spelling) just for the sake of it.
It's like giving your character twirling moustache and evil laugh.

Also, sorry for going so far off topic, I just wanted to explain my previous statement.

Jul 6, 2014 5:23 PM

#121

Orix

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Given that the entire premise of this show is that magicians are the future's weapons, that there has been wars is sort of a requirement, and that Japan's two largest and closest neighbors are its enemies is less nationalistic than it is realistic.

If this was any realistic, the powers of the world would have shifted to the Equator to avoid the Ice Age and that Japan would have been part of the Pacific Alliance of America.

I wouldn't drop the term "realistic" because Mahouka will never be realistic due to the presence of magic that would make comparisons difficult.

Jul 6, 2014 5:31 PM

#122

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nina4life said:
China and Russia make sense as enemies, thanks to their history with them and their location. What slightly bothers me is the name: New Soviet Union. Why, oh why, is it that? Russia would suffice. A dangerous enemy indeed.

Because ironically the author did that so as NOT to be considered racist or nationalistic. Calling it the "New Soviet Union" states that he doesn't consider Russians as natural enemies or naturally aggressive, it is the STATE that is wrong, not the PEOPLE. It isn't so much that he wants to make them "evil", but rather to make it counter factual. This is also why he made sure to call the mafia "Hong Kongese" and not Chinese.

Short of inventing completely new countries, what the author did was the best combination of using names that people will automatically understand and making sure we know that it is separated from reality.

Also, through 14 episodes of the animation we do not know if other countries are "evil", morality hasn't entered into the picture, indeed from Tatsuya's pov it is simple competition between countries. Of course being Japanese he probably wants Japan to win (if only to protect Miyuki), but nothing in this show has stated that Japan is intrinsically better.

Jul 6, 2014 5:39 PM

#123

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Orix said:
If this was any realistic, the powers of the world would have shifted to the Equator to avoid the Ice Age and that Japan would have been part of the Pacific Alliance of America.

I wouldn't drop the term "realistic" because Mahouka will never be realistic due to the presence of magic that would make comparisons difficult.

Although I don't believe the anime has touched on the cooling of the Earth, that fact makes the China's and Russia's actions even more "realistic". Because of ocean currents, Japan receives a great deal of sub tropical heat and moisture, far more than the continental countries do, this would explain why political entities located in China or Russia would be attacking Japan, it is the closest territory in their expansion southwards.

I haven't read the novels, so I don't know if this is explained, but based solely on your comment, this makes the authors depiction even MORE realistic than I thought. Russia and China are not moving against Japan because they are evil, but rather because they are desperate. I imagine that China has already moved against Southeast Asia as well (though perhaps India is blocking them there).

I am also curious as to the "Yokohama incident". The US hasn't been mentioned yet in this series, but right next to Yokohama is the largest US base in Japan outside of Okinawa. Would be curious if that ties in in any way. Probably not, since geopolitics seems more a backdrop than a theme.

Jul 6, 2014 5:45 PM

#124

DawnJ

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People should know that the LN is actually a chicken soup for netouyo.

日本人はイッちゃってるよ
あいつら未来に生きてんな

Jul 6, 2014 5:50 PM

#125

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Takuan_Soho said:

Humm, you know just because he is an elitist doesn't make him racist. And I would be careful with even calling him an elitist. Tatsuya definitely is, but remember that Tatsuya doesn't have emotions: strip anyone of compassion and empathy and you get such pragmatism (think Vulcans).

Given that the entire premise of this show is that magicians are the future's weapons, that there has been wars is sort of a requirement, and that Japan's two largest and closest neighbors are its enemies is less nationalistic than it is realistic. Who else would it be? France?

Using the Tongs instead of the Yakuza is a bit of a better argument, but the writer did state "Hong Kong" as opposed to China (and Hong Kong is the traditional base of the Tongs) and it ties into the whole "Yokohama" motiff (as you probably know Yokohama is most famous for its Chinatown). So that makes absolute sense as well (though that they would try to "fix" the match doesn't).

And you sort of left out that the biggest antagonist so far has been Japanese (Crimson Prince)?

Elitist, racist, different shit, same asshole. First you have to keep in mind that that not only are Tatsuya’s Ayn Rand speeches out of place, but that it’s because they’re out of place that Tatsuya essentially ends up being the author’s mouthpiece. Tatsuya the character is the conduit by which Satou’s twisted ideals are realized. And, to get this out of the way, Masaki isn't really an antagonist, not even a rival. Lucarion/Borderose on AnimeSuki is probably one of the biggest deniers of Mahouka being an ode to objectivism and has on occasion ignored the points being made as such.

Consider the following, objectivism is based on a few core tenants: (1) laissez faire capitalism is king and government should only exist for the safety of people and their property, (2) your happiness is best happiness (altruism is allowed, but is not your sole goal in life and you shouldn’t treat it as a moral virtue, because that would be anti-self, anti-humanity), (3) rational thought leads to the best possible outcome and is placed above appeal to emotion.

Now consider the argument: Tatsuya is the author’s objectivist ideal: he is emotionless and as such depends upon rational thought for his next course of action. He is uncompromising, analytical, and observant, not bogged down by emotional baggage, which allows him to accomplish what he does with sheer prowess and efficiency, and it’s usually portrayed as the right course of action in the story. What Tatsuya does is right, is what the Mahoukaverse drills into us (for a good portion of the series at least). His Elemental Sight allows him to the see world for what it truly is.

He clearly doesn't believe in goodwill or helping other people out of kindness. If he does help people, it is usually as a side effect of keeping Miyuki happy or he gets something out of it. He simply doesn't care for the plights of others unless it somehow affects Miyuki, and as such maintains the status quo. You heard the quote, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” But I guess you could argue he was never a "good man."

Now consider the one counterpoint to the above: Tatsuya’s whole life is dedicated to Miyuki, which goes against one of the core tenants of objectivism, but that’s more because his brain was fucked with and he’s left with that one last emotion intact, love (and devotion) for his sister.

P.S. BioShock took objectivism to its logical conclusion.

And I didn't even talk about racism and nationalism yet.

Orix said:

If this was any realistic, the powers of the world would have shifted to the Equator to avoid the Ice Age and that Japan would have been part of the Pacific Alliance of America.

I wouldn't drop the term "realistic" because Mahouka will never be realistic due to the presence of magic that would make comparisons difficult.

If this was the least bit realistic, Japan in the Mahoukaverse would've starved to death during the food shortages they witnessed.

Jul 6, 2014 6:04 PM

#126

nina4life

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But on the other side, calling it New soviet union (nsu) can be interpreted as bias against Russia.

While he may have done it in an attempt to not sound nationalistic towards them, it is not set so far in the future. That means Russian people were either: 1. Willingly chose NSU or 2. Too weak to resist new opression from new dictator.
No matter how I look at it, it sounds like he's looking down on them.
Again, maybe I am completely wrong but that is how I see it. As both insult and unnecessary villanification of enemy country.

You say it is not clear whether NSU is evil or not. I say it is. Why else give he name? To distance it from real world? Than why state you just had war with them?
You say they won't take France as enemy, wouldn't make sense.
I say NSU doesn't make sense.
May as well be France taking over the World, it is not real World after all.

You obviously have more informations since you read LN ( or some of it).
But I am giving you anime-only view that I have.
And problem with this show is that it has some things which were neither explained nor logical. And then I have to ask person who read LN to explain it to me.
Take this case as an example. You are giving really good, valid points. Yet they're stemming from LN.

Honestly? I am getting sick and tired of constantly coming on these discussion boards and asking questions about stuff that makes no sense.
If this show did more World building and less Tatsuya worshipping I would have it rated much higher.

But this is now a rant and I should really, really avoid those. They contribute to nothing.

Edit: Ok, I noticed now you say you didn't read LNs. Nonetheless, my point stands.

nina4lifeJul 6, 2014 6:08 PM

Jul 6, 2014 6:13 PM

#127

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Takuan_Soho said:

Because ironically the author did that so as NOT to be considered racist or nationalistic. Calling it the "New Soviet Union" states that he doesn't consider Russians as natural enemies or naturally aggressive, it is the STATE that is wrong, not the PEOPLE. It isn't so much that he wants to make them "evil", but rather to make it counter factual. This is also why he made sure to call the mafia "Hong Kongese" and not Chinese.

Short of inventing completely new countries, what the author did was the best combination of using names that people will automatically understand and making sure we know that it is separated from reality.

Also, through 14 episodes of the animation we do not know if other countries are "evil", morality hasn't entered into the picture, indeed from Tatsuya's pov it is simple competition between countries. Of course being Japanese he probably wants Japan to win (if only to protect Miyuki), but nothing in this show has stated that Japan is intrinsically better.

What is the state if not of its people? I don't expect a Japanese LN author to understand the idea that vilifying a state is similar to vilifying the people residing in the state. And there doesn't have to be new country names, mainly because it's more realistic to have countries still stay separate except for the bigger world powers who have the firepower to conquer other nations while fighting against food shortages in WW3.

Jul 6, 2014 6:16 PM

#128

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wrenchbread said:
Elitist, racist, different shit, same asshole. First you have to keep in mind that that not only are Tatsuya’s Ayn Rand speeches out of place

May I suggest that the only people more stupid and boring than the Objectivists are the anti-Objectivists?

Tatsuya's speech wasn't Objectivism, it applies more to how the guardians of society should be respected than it does to how the "elite" should be respected. That isn't Objectivism, indeed it is the very antithesis of it, in Rand's perfect world, were people operated under Galt's rule, police would NOT be needed, which sort of shows why it is idealistic and not realistic.

Let me explain this another way, Tatsuya, in not having emotions, is only concerned with efficiency. If that is all one thinks about then of course, and this goes back to Plato, a benign dictatorship would be the best form of government. The trouble with this, naturally, is that even if one assume that the dictator is benign, then individuality is a hindrance, not a virtue. Only when the human element is entered into the equation do the flaws of dogmas like fascism and communism become apparent.

Jul 6, 2014 6:31 PM

#129

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Takuan_Soho said:

May I suggest that the only people more stupid and boring than the Objectivists are the anti-Objectivists?

Tatsuya's speech wasn't Objectivism, it applies more to how the guardians of society should be respected than it does to how the "elite" should be respected. That isn't Objectivism, indeed it is the very antithesis of it, in Rand's perfect world, were people operated under Galt's rule, police would NOT be needed, which sort of shows why it is idealistic and not realistic.

Let me explain this another way, Tatsuya, in not having emotions, is only concerned with efficiency. If that is all one thinks about then of course, and this goes back to Plato, a benign dictatorship would be the best form of government. The trouble with this, naturally, is that even if one assume that the dictator is benign, then individuality is a hindrance, not a virtue. Only when the human element is entered into the equation do the flaws of dogmas like fascism and communism become apparent.

The apparent elites of Mahouka's society involves wielding magic. 'Magic is Might' and all that. By virtue of wielding powerful magic, somehow, our world's government saw them fit to run their own little club. It's far from benign considering absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And the point is that the most efficient course of action is not necessarily the 'right' one. That's why Tatsuya is troubling. He's akin to Robocop with an emotion limiter turned on. The most recent remake addressed this theme pretty thoroughly, that, sure, he gets the job done, but without that human element, the consideration for another human being, that only leads to the degradation of humanity.

Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post.

MellowJelloJul 7, 2014 10:17 AM

Jul 6, 2014 6:39 PM

#130

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The ironic part about this Ayn Rand thing being attributed to the series is the part the anime failed to show; that Tatsuya's little speech was his way of feeling better about himself. He states that he was actively trying to convince himself about the truth of what he was saying. Now I ask, if Tatsuya (who some say is the author's mouthpiece politics-wise) doesn't believe in what he was saying, does that mean the author doesn't believe in Ayn Rand politics?

Jul 6, 2014 6:41 PM

#131

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millie10468 said:
The ironic part about this Ayn Rand thing being attributed to the series is the part the anime failed to show; that Tatsuya's little speech was his way of feeling better about himself. He states that he was actively trying to convince himself about the truth of what he was saying. Now I ask, if Tatsuya (who some say is the author's mouthpiece politics-wise) doesn't believe in what he was saying, does that mean the author doesn't believe in Ayn Rand politics?

I'm pretty sure that was about declining to have his name put in the Index.

Jul 6, 2014 6:49 PM

#132

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wrenchbread said:
It's far from benign considering absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Ah, Lord Acton. Read in context the expression, far from being a truism, is idiotic. People in power DO have a different morality than us in normality. Churchill allowing the bombing of Coventry to protect the secret that the United Kingdom had broken the Enigma code was the right decision. Context DOES matter, both in reality and in morality. Indeed I would state that those who pretend to an absolute are the immoral ones (I have no sympathy for pacifists, they can only exist because of those who fight and die to protect their right to be pacifists).

Oh, here is the actual context
http://files.libertyfund.org/pll/quotes/214.html

wrenchbread said:
And the point is that the most efficient course of action is not necessarily the 'right' one. That's why Tatsuya is troubling.

In that science hasn't (yet) figured out the way to turn off empathy, I wouldn't say that Tatsuya is troubling as much as I would say that he makes for an interesting thought experiment, though of course it really depends on what the author does from here.

Jul 6, 2014 6:53 PM

#133

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wrenchbread said:

millie10468 said:
The ironic part about this Ayn Rand thing being attributed to the series is the part the anime failed to show; that Tatsuya's little speech was his way of feeling better about himself. He states that he was actively trying to convince himself about the truth of what he was saying. Now I ask, if Tatsuya (who some say is the author's mouthpiece politics-wise) doesn't believe in what he was saying, does that mean the author doesn't believe in Ayn Rand politics?

I'm pretty sure that was about declining to have his name put in the Index.

No, it's part of his monologue in the source material.

Jul 6, 2014 6:57 PM

#134

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wrenchbread said:
I'm pretty sure that was about declining to have his name put in the Index.

Uhm, no, the animation covered this specifically. Miyuiki asked him this and he said that the reason he declined was because he had been ordered by his Aunt not to do anything to draw attention to himself. He then stated that the only reason he obeyed was because while he thought he could take out his Aunt, he did not believe he was strong enough to defeat the entire clan.

Jul 6, 2014 6:59 PM

#135

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millie10468 said:

No, it's part of his monologue in the source material.

Tatsuya: Mibu-senpai, no one is entitled to warm pizza.
Sayaka: But the pizza we get is frozen! You should help us get WARM pizza.
Tatsuya: Sometimes people don't deserve warm pizza. [thinks to self]Yes, they do, unconditionally[/thinks to self] *leaves to get her cold pizza*

Dude says one thing, thinks another, and does the things supporting what he SAID rather than what he THOUGHT.

You're gonna have to give me sauce.

wrenchbreadJul 6, 2014 7:02 PM

Jul 6, 2014 7:01 PM

#136

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wrenchbread said:

millie10468 said:

No, it's part of his monologue in the source material.

Tatsuya: Mibu-senpai, no one is entitled to warm pizza.
Sayaka: But the pizza we get is frozen! You should help us get WARM pizza.
Tatsuya: Sometimes people don't deserve warm pizza. [thinks to self]Yes, they do, unconditionally[/thinks to self] *leaves to get her cold pizza*

Dude says one thing, thinks another, and does the things supporting what he SAID rather than what he THOUGHT.

The only thing the guy is consistent about is his desire to protect his little sister. It doesn't mean he doesn't have his own thoughts about things.

Jul 6, 2014 7:08 PM

#137

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millie10468 said:

The only thing the guy is consistent about is his desire to protect his little sister. It doesn't mean he doesn't have his own thoughts about things.

"We all make choices. But in the end, our choices make us."
―Andrew Ryan

He can be the nicest guy in the world in his mind, but if his actions say otherwise, then that's what we'll judge him on. Unless, of course, the story is trying to portray him as someone who does the wrong things for the right reasons.

Takuan_Soho said:

Uhm, no, the animation covered this specifically. Miyuiki asked him this and he said that the reason he declined was because he had been ordered by his Aunt not to do anything to draw attention to himself. He then stated that the only reason he obeyed was because while he thought he could take out his Aunt, he did not believe he was strong enough to defeat the entire clan.

Except what he says is different from what he truly feels. The point is that whatever he says in these instances is just something to make himself feel better. I guess Tatsuya does want to have his name in the Index, but you know, behind-the-scenes bull.

wrenchbreadJul 6, 2014 7:15 PM

Jul 6, 2014 7:17 PM

#138

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wrenchbread said:
The point is that whatever he says in these instances is just something to make himself feel better. I guess Tatsuya does want to have his name in the Index, but you know, behind-the-scenes bull.

No, it was not to "make himself feel better" and it wasn't a "guess", Miyuki specifically asked why he didn't put his name forward and he specifically answered it was because he was ordered not to. This absolutely implied that he would have wanted his name recorded, but because he wasn't ready to take on the entire clan he couldn't do otherwise.

You should know that I have been pretty harsh on this show, so I am not being an apologist, but in this case the show made Tatsuya's thinking perfectly clear.

Jul 6, 2014 7:27 PM

#139

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Takuan_Soho said:

wrenchbread said:
The point is that whatever he says in these instances is just something to make himself feel better. I guess Tatsuya does want to have his name in the Index, but you know, behind-the-scenes bull.

No, it was not to "make himself feel better" and it wasn't a "guess", Miyuki specifically asked why he didn't put his name forward and he specifically answered it was because he was ordered not to. This absolutely implied that he would have wanted his name recorded, but because he wasn't ready to take on the entire clan he couldn't do otherwise.

You should know that I have been pretty harsh on this show, so I am not being an apologist, but in this case the show made Tatsuya's thinking perfectly clear.

I'm merely extrapolating what millie said. I'm still leaning on taking Tatsuya for face value. At this point I'm just conflicted whether or not Tatsuya is an unreliable narrator.

Jul 6, 2014 7:33 PM

#140

Trizept

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New OP and ED? Not bad....
This ep overall was nice.
Next episode is going to yet again show Tatsuya's skills and how much of a badass he is.
I'm expecting a lot from Monolith Code; hopefully it doesn't disappoint.

Jul 6, 2014 7:35 PM

#141

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wrenchbread said:
I'm merely extrapolating what millie said. I'm still leaning on taking Tatsuya for face value. At this point I'm just conflicted whether or not Tatsuya is an unreliable narrator.

I wouldn't call him "unreliable", because this implies that the narrator is, to a great extent, fooling themselves (see Kodaka from Haganai).

This isn't the problem with Tatsuya. Self delusion isn't his fault.

Jul 6, 2014 8:53 PM

#142

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millie10468 said:
The ironic part about this Ayn Rand thing being attributed to the series is the part the anime failed to show; that Tatsuya's little speech was his way of feeling better about himself. He states that he was actively trying to convince himself about the truth of what he was saying. Now I ask, if Tatsuya (who some say is the author's mouthpiece politics-wise) doesn't believe in what he was saying, does that mean the author doesn't believe in Ayn Rand politics?

Ok, I was scrounging around the LNs for the excerpt in question, but it was either not explicitly clear or people are misunderstanding, considering the... questionable translation quality. I tried.

The bolded are the more relevant parts but Tatsuya truly felt no reason to change the school. It was just another step in his road to making his perpetual power generator.

I think you guys are pulling our legs.

Jul 6, 2014 9:06 PM

#143

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wrenchbread said:
The bolded are the more relevant parts but Tatsuya truly felt no reason to change the school. It was just another step in his road to making his perpetual power generator.

I am not sure I get either argument being made here, devoid of emotion he doesn't really need to feel better about himself or feel elitist towards others, like a pruned plant, he is growing in the only direction he is capable of growing. In this case, it isn't that he doesn't care what others think, he is incapable of understanding what is implied with what others think. Society has told him that he needs to graduate to continue his ambition so he is attending high school to check that box.

Jul 6, 2014 9:17 PM

#144

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Takuan_Soho said:

I am not sure I get either argument being made here, devoid of emotion he doesn't really need to feel better about himself or feel elitist towards others, like a pruned plant, he is growing in the only direction he is capable of growing. In this case, it isn't that he doesn't care what others think, he is incapable of understanding what is implied with what others think. Society has told him that he needs to graduate to continue his ambition so he is attending high school to check that box.

Well, that's the Watsonian perspective. The Doylist perspective would be asking why he was made that way. If this was just a one-off thing on part of the author, I probably would've let it slide, but it continues to snowball and eventually ends with nothing really changing.

I believe what millie is saying is that Satou isn't an elitist/nationalist/racist/whatever-ist if we were to consider (1) the angle that Tatsuya is his mouthpiece and (2) Tatsuya is lying to himself and the audience. I've already kinda confirmed that he isn't really lying to himself because the excerpt doesn't exist. There's a reason why I asked for sauce seeing how he's so familiar with the material or maybe he read it somewhere and parroted it. You bring up the right points that Tatsuya wouldn't be able to feel such things as regret and inadequacy. But I'm more talking about what he truly believes. What he truly believes is ambivalence and rationalization.

Takuan_Soho said:

May I suggest that the only people more stupid and boring than the Objectivists are the anti-Objectivists?

Totally forgot to address this. I hope you didn't mean this as an insult toward me.

I'm more anti-straw man than anti-objectivism. Like with most philosophies and ideologies, I agree and disagree with certain points within them. My gripe is that Satou foregoes any particular nuance with such ideologies (the pros, the cons, and all the emotionally-charged baggage that comes with them) and poses a straw man to burn down. It feels awfully fake when considered in the context of the story. Square pegs were being forced into triangular holes sort of situation.

wrenchbreadJul 6, 2014 9:37 PM

Jul 6, 2014 9:41 PM

#145

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wrenchbread said:

millie10468 said:
The ironic part about this Ayn Rand thing being attributed to the series is the part the anime failed to show; that Tatsuya's little speech was his way of feeling better about himself. He states that he was actively trying to convince himself about the truth of what he was saying. Now I ask, if Tatsuya (who some say is the author's mouthpiece politics-wise) doesn't believe in what he was saying, does that mean the author doesn't believe in Ayn Rand politics?

Ok, I was scrounging around the LNs for the excerpt in question, but it was either not explicitly clear or people are misunderstanding, considering the... questionable translation quality. I tried.

The bolded are the more relevant parts but Tatsuya truly felt no reason to change the school. It was just another step in his road to making his perpetual power generator.

I think you guys are pulling our legs.

When Tatsuya was explaining Blanche's MO to Miyuki, this is what he said in its entirety. It's a bit long but you'll get the gist.

Now compare what he said to Miyuki to what he says to Mibu later on. In some ways, they're almost contradictory. While he really does have no expectations of the school, it's not the school itself that makes him feel inferior. It's the magic system as a whole. So him telling Mibu that he honestly didn't have anything in common with her contradicts what he told Miyuki. What does that tell us?

A lot of people said that Tatsuya (and the author) supported Meritocracy based on what anime-Tatsuya said. However, as you can see, it's not that he supports it. He identifies with Mibu's plights and acknowledges that he has those same feelings. But that doesn't mean he doesn't also see why some Magicians deserve the high salary they receive.

Tatsuya might be an unreliable narrator in some instances due to his inability to see himself in a positive light. And most of the things he says, he actually believes. However, there is no doubt that he does try to convince himself about certain issues in order to feel better about himself. It's why Miyuki has to keep telling him that he's powerful and a god, yadda yadda periodically.

Also, I never said Satou wasn't an elitist, nationalist or racist. I just said that if we're supposed to take Tatsuya as their author's mouthpiece, doesn't that mean the author himself does not subscribe to Ayn Rand politics if Tatsuya doesn't?
As for nationalism, I'd like to know who isn't, to an extent. The author also panders and pays lip service to the U.S and Europe and portrays Japan horribly sometimes in the novels. Sure, he does praise Japan but it comes across to me as tolerable. As for racism... I wouldn't know. The only race that gets close to being demonized is the author's own race so I don't know if that counts.

Edit: I'm looking for more instances where he says one thing but thought another but it's so hard to do that without actually reading the novels all over again. I'll keep trying thou. Fightin'

OpalMidgeJul 6, 2014 10:18 PM

Jul 6, 2014 9:59 PM

#146

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6648

wrenchbread said:
Well, that's the Watsonian perspective. The Doylist perspective would be asking why he was made that way. If this was just a one-off thing on part of the author, I probably would've let it slide, but it continues to snowball and eventually ends with nothing really changing.

The why has been explained, it is a control mechanism installed by the clan, while ultimately he may not like the clan, he will ultimately be loyal to the person his Aunt wants to succeed the clan (Miyuki).

wrenchbread said:
But I'm more talking about what he truly believes. What he truly believes is ambivalence and rationalization.

I really can't answer that since I haven't read the novels, however from a philosophical pov I would have to question whether an emotionless Tatsuya is capable of "believing" anything. Indeed I would even question whether or not Tatsuya can be considered as to having "free will". If that is the case then there is nothing that Tatsuya "truly" believes, because it isn't as if he can imagine an alternative. "The Frog in the Well Knows Nothing of the Sea".

wrenchbread said:
Totally forgot to address this. I hope you didn't mean this as an insult toward me.

No, I meant it as an insult to anti-objectivists. While Rand has plenty of flaws as both a writer and a thinker, most of the complaints about her show that the critiques 1) either haven't read her, or 2) show that the reader is so blinded by their prejudices that they read want they wanted to, not what the author actually wrote (and if you have seen my arguments on the SAO and NGNL threads you should realize that I hate critiques who do this with ANY work no matter how flawed).

For instance, Rand never said that helping people is wrong, or that giving charity is wrong, what she said that imposing the obligation on people to do it is wrong. For Rand helping someone is something that the individual should decide they should do out of empathy for the plight of the other person, not out of some societal obligation. This was shown in the novel when the MC wanted to help out her sister in law.

wrenchbread said:
My gripe is that Satou foregoes any particular nuance with such ideologies (the pros, the cons, and all the emotionally-charged baggage that comes with them) and poses a straw man to burn down. It feels awfully fake when considered in the context of the story. Square pegs were being forced into triangular holes sort of situation.

Can't comment on the writer in that I haven't read the books, however in as much as we know that Tatsuya is emotionally crippled, I would be hesitant to claim that his outlook reflects anything other than the viewpoint of such a person.

From a pure anime viewing POV, I would have been more down with the complaint before 13, the last two episodes have finally started to show the downside of Tatsuya's condition.

Jul 6, 2014 10:18 PM

#147

Offline

May 2010

418

millie10468 said:

Now compare what he said to Miyuki to what he says to Mibu later on. In some ways, they're almost contradictory. While he really does have no expectations of the school, it's not the school itself that makes him feel inferior. It's the magic system as a whole. So him telling Mibu that he honestly didn't have anything in common with her contradicts what he told Miyuki. What does that tell us?

A lot of people said that Tatsuya (and the author) supported Meritocracy based on what anime-Tatsuya said. However, as you can see, it's not that he supports it. He identifies with Mibu's plights and acknowledges that he has those same feelings. But that doesn't mean he doesn't also see why some Magicians deserve the high salary they receive.

Tatsuya might be an unreliable narrator in some instances due to his inability to see himself in a positive light. And most of the things he says, he actually believes. However, there is no doubt that he does try to convince himself about certain issues in order to feel better about himself. It's why Miyuki has to keep telling him that he's powerful and a god, yadda yadda periodically.

I think you're bending things. The simplest explanation would be to chalk it up to bad writing. It's usually the correct one.

I'll try my hand at demystifying this apparent contradiction.

First of all, the whole speech about Blanche is trying to correlate student mages feeling inadequate to joining said organization because said organization is peddling sweet words of equality. Tatsuya rationalizes why mages get compensated the way they do. It's above all a lecture on the evils of communism, almost a scare tactic (rather than rewarding the already privileged for their talent, everyone is equally fucked!). Also an attack on Japan's sovereignty or something. (Yes, reading that whole speech again under scrutiny makes it all the more apparent how stupid it is.)

Now let's go to Tatsuya and Mibu's 2nd conversation (first one is about recruiting him to the kendo club, was uneventful). For the most part Mibu is trying to think up things she wants to change within the school, while countering Tatsuya with ways Weeds are disenfranchised and Tatsuya rationalizes the apparent discrimination. He holds the same stance when facing against Sayaka later on.

In fact, you do remember the terrorist attack where Sayaka and cronies got raided in the midst of stealing top-secret data, right?

Mahouka said:
Yet, none of these piteous cries reached Tatsuya. His heart did not resonate with those words. That was because to Tatsuya, "these things" were simply acceptable aspects of reality.

I honestly don't see the contradictions. He told Sayaka the same exact things he told Miyuki (or us, if you wanna see it that way). He rationalizes everything regarding the mage system. He probably did think of himself as a victim at a few points as mentioned in that Blanche speech (such as thinking himself as inadequate, when all evidence points to the contrary which feels very disingenuous, but that's a whole nother argument), now he merely accepts the way things are. He's pretty consistent in that. Rather than support, his stance is more like complacency (which you can probably argue is worse).

wrenchbreadJul 6, 2014 10:27 PM

Jul 6, 2014 10:18 PM

#148

KneelBeforeMe

Offline

Apr 2013

7975

I remember during the first arc when LNs readers were saying how better the next arc would be.. lol.

Jul 6, 2014 10:30 PM

#149

Offline

Oct 2013

285

wrenchbread said:
snip
I honestly don't see the contradictions. He told Sayaka the same exact things he told Miyuki (or us, if you wanna see it that way). He rationalizes everything regarding the mage system. He probably did think of himself as a victim at a few points as mentioned in that Blanche speech (such as thinking himself as inadequate, when all evidence points to the contrary which feels very disingenuous, but that's a whole nother argument), now he merely accepts the way things are. He's pretty consistent in that.

First of all, I love that gif :) It's perfect.

Anyway, since you haven't read the novels, I don't know how far I should go to try and make my point but just in case you don't mind being mildly spoiled, here's a question;

OpalMidgeJul 6, 2014 10:41 PM

Jul 6, 2014 10:49 PM

#150