Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei Episode 13 Discussion

Jun 29, 2014 11:32 AM

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Newhopes said:

ichii_1 said:

and when someone says something positive(add negitive here) (see the previous threads) they attack them with their oxymoronic options as if they're facts.

Pretty much what your doing as well, should I report you as well?

What oxymoronic opinion exactly, may I ask?

They take the Stated Facts said in the show and deny it and twist it like you're doing :O
I said when they admit they're trolling, report them but no you changed and selected what you wanted to hear changing the whole thing, nice going.

I don't have a problem with the personal opinions thou btw.

ichii_1Jun 29, 2014 11:55 AM

Jun 29, 2014 11:33 AM

#152

wrenchbread

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AnimageNeby said:

Trolling and whining week after week, is not discussing. With that simple fact, your whole line of reasoning becomes rather weak, as an argument.

At what point does criticism become trolling or whining? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Mahouka keeps doing the same stupid shit week after week? Or are you willfully oblivious to that?

So cult classics don't exist? B-tier horror movies are not enjoyable for how bad they are? Deadly Premonition did not deserve a perfect score of 10/10 from Destructoid? It didn't deserve TWO separate Endurance Runs from the Giant Bomb crew?

Whether or not you think my argument is weak doesn't negate the fact that "so bad, it's good" exists and there's enough proof of it across all the different mediums. How about experiencing some of them for once? Get a new perspective on things?

It would certainly get the discussion going if people can provide good counter arguments but most of the time it's just the critics talking to themselves and others doing drive-by comments. Be the change you wish to see. If no one responds, well then of course that's not a discussion.

AnimageNeby said:
I don't need to be educated, thank you (you'd have to be an arrogant prick on his high horse to even think that in the first place, frankly).

It's not about educating people. I'm not sure I understand your position here. (And honestly, all too often I see people who just don't care about the underlying stuff they consume, which is not a bad thing, so it's obviously a breath of fresh air if I can chat with people who takes interest in that stuff. It's better than reading about waifu wars and superficial stuff.)

It goes both ways. Let's just say I don't think it's self-righteous as you make it to be and I value other perspectives, but in the end, I'm still the one making the final judgment for myself. Seriously, chill out. It was only a suggestion. Or you above that as well?

wrenchbreadJun 29, 2014 11:44 AM

Jun 29, 2014 11:45 AM

#153

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

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Newhopes said:

ichii_1 said:

and when someone says something positive(add negitive here) (see the previous threads) they attack them with their oxymoronic options as if they're facts.

Pretty much what your doing as well, should I report you as well?

Which is exactly the reason it shouldn't happen in the first place. Look, even I made a whole post, purely dedicated to that bashing/trolling that constantly goes on here. Normally, I have better things to do, like actually discussing the anime. But people who come here week after week just to bash it with one-liners, are not trying to discus it. Their main point is trying to stir up the place. They know it, I know it, even you know it.

Personally, I don't believe in reporting or whatever, because I'm a libertarian at heart and I think free speech trumps about everything else. That doesn't mean I don't get pretty annoyed by people which seek out confrontation and derive their pleasure out of that, not from an intellectual discussion about the anime.

Also the repetition of the few - rather subjective - arguments have been stated over and over. There is no benefit in repetition. "The characters are bland". "CAD are like penises" "it was boring". Hardly conductive not inviting to have a profound debate about it. Worse: bashers have been saying that since ep1. We're now episode 13. If they still didn't figure out the series won't change by now, they are idiotic. If they DO realise it, they should also realise we already know their opinion. We really don't need to see the 35th same complaint about it. And lastly - the most difficult - they really should realise they could do better things than waste their time with things they don't like.

It can have value, I read. The value is mostly in their own head, I'm afraid. They think they need to 'enlighten' others, it would seem. No, you don't. Really. You don't. They talk about the value of 'analysing it'; but I rarely see any deep analysis of the typical basher; 95% of the time, it's just a subjective opinion being spouted as a oneliner. Furthermore, one analytical post about the same things is enough; you really don't have to add one-liner-complaints after that, week after week.

Jun 29, 2014 11:58 AM

#154

GD1551

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Oct 2010

5252

[quote=alcrowry]

skudoops said:

However it should be noted that only a few among the audiences are aware (aside from the First High players) that the new magic used by Shizuku are created by Tatsuya. For all they know, Shizuku was the one who made it and it's even registered with her name on the magic index. And also, not a lot of people aside from Mayumi, Mari, Katsuto, Leo, Erika, and Kirihara are aware that Tatsuya was involved in the terrorist thing.

The great magic abilities for the 1st year are not unheard of. Before Miyuki, they already saw what Mayumi, Katsuto, and Mari can do.
About Tatsuya, they do get suspicious about it. If I'm not mistaken, Mari and Mayumi are suspicious about this as well in the LN later on, but it's not like they can find anything if they look into it.
The secrets behind those two are well kept by Yotsuba.

By the way, just clarify, it's not like the technology Shizuku used in the competiton is not unheard of. It's already released to the public, but as Masaki said it's not reliable. All Tatsuya did was tweaked the software to make it more efficient.

Well for your first point, I'm just saying it contradicts his overall statement, even if only a few know about his individual deeds, the fact is they do know. Not to mention these are kids from the most prominent magic families, so it's not too far fetched that they would inform their parents of such amazing people.

As for the second one, I'm merely just pointing it out because doing stuff like that attracts attention.

For the last point, the technology wasn't on the market, nor was the existence of a working prototype according to suzaku. Even if many people don't know what it is, considering how famous the competition is, someone is bound to notice it. Suzaku and his friend did, so I'd think that any experts viewing the competition would as well. (And there are experts viewing the competition else Tatsuya's magic would have never been chosen to be placed in the university index).

HomeAlone said:

He didn't want to be an engineer but was forced to because of Miyuki. Since Miyuki wanted him to be one he had to do his best.

One of the reason this anime is a failure.

They are suspected too. Honoka wondered if Miyuki was from the master clans, it should have been in this episode normally. Other will be suspicious of Tatsuya's identity too.

Well I get that, but I was wondering why would he bother to go so far. It's one thing to be especially good at tuning the CADs, but to throw out big stuff like new magic and prototypes is a bit much for someone trying to hide their identity.

Jun 29, 2014 12:03 PM

#155

AnimageNeby

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"At what point does criticism become trolling or whining? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Mahouka keeps doing the same stupid shit week after week? Or are you willfully oblivious to that?"

But that's not the point. Even if YOU are convinced it's bad, and it keeps being bad week after week for the same reasons, it's sufficient to say it once why it's bad. That reason remains valid (for you) as long as it keeps it up being bad at the same points. There is no reason why to (re)iterate it again and again. Like with all things, (re)iteration and repetition makes annoying. You seem to agree with this for the series; why can't you see the same applies to your responses?

Furthemore, the main difference between criticism and trolling is the intend it wants to invoke. The first explains ones' reasoning of thought and substantiates the conclusions made by logical arguments. Thereby it gives an invitation to others to discus it in a rational, intellectual way. A trolling or whining post's main focus is NOT engaging in a truly thoughtful exposure, analysis or debate, but just to invoke a reaction, any sort of reaction, and preferably one that stir things up.

In style, this becomes apparent: the first makes rather elaborate posts, with non-provocation-prone wording, and rational arguments, and doesn't fall into the same repetitions every week. The latter are typical statements of ones' own opinions and a purely subjective stance on the matter - over and over again, and are usually worded as oneliners where there is no real expectation or wish of engaging someone else in an interesting debate. (If it is, then there is something seriously wrong with the appreciation of how to have a decent discussion.)

If one looks at the majority of the bashers' responses, you'll see that almost all are oneliners, with mere subjective opinions being spouted. That is not conductive for a fruitful debate. I think everyone knows and realises this, even you. Thus, the way you word it, and the main intention of ones' post, together with the repetition of it, is what determines what is a whining/trolling post, and what is meant to be an invitation to an interesting debate on the merit or lack thereof of a series.

AnimageNebyJun 29, 2014 12:07 PM

Jun 29, 2014 12:06 PM

#156

wrenchbread

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AnimageNeby said:
snip

You know and I know that deep inside that this is gonna continue happening regardless of either of our protests. Not that I think I'm a primary contributor; even I got tired of SAO's bullshit and posts dwindled. And-- this isn't really directed at you per se-- how about stop decrying arguments as subjective when it's really just shorthand for "I think your opinion is wrong but I'm not gonna say why" and actually say why.

I actually chuckled at the CAD sex joke because it's not the first time someone's made that connection. I mean, think about it. The girls all want Tatsuya to calibrate their CADs.

Jun 29, 2014 12:23 PM

#157

ichii_1

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wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

I actually chuckled at the CAD sex joke because it's not the first time someone's made that connection. I mean, think about it. The girls all want Tatsuya to calibrate their CADs.

As they should he is a handsome, respectable, hardworking and a very capable guy, who wants a average looking jealous guy like Morisaki?

Jun 29, 2014 12:30 PM

#158

wrenchbread

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ichii_1 said:

As they should he is a handsome, respectable, hardworking and a very capable guy, who wants a average looking jealous guy like Morisaki?
http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/15/232565.jpg

Now you're just spamming. And people call me a troll.

Jun 29, 2014 12:35 PM

#159

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

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wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

You know and I know that deep inside that this is gonna continue happening regardless of either of our protests. Not that I think I'm a primary contributor; even I got tired of SAO's bullshit and posts dwindled. And-- this isn't really directed at you per se-- how about stop decrying arguments as subjective when it's really just shorthand for "I think your opinion is wrong but I'm not gonna say why" and actually say why.

I actually chuckled at the CAD sex joke because it's not the first time someone's made that connection. I mean, think about it. The girls all want Tatsuya to calibrate their CADs.

The adagio 'don't feed the trolls' is a well known one, indeed. I usually don't. But sometimes it does get on my nerves too much. That it's going to happen in the future as well, I'm well aware of it, but that doesn't really mean anything. Reactions are also continuing to happen, if not by me, then by others. Banning is still going to happen too. You have all sorts of people, you have pricks and you have admirable people, and all in between. So one can expect ALL (kinds of) human reactions, and as long as there are humans, you will get and continue to get them all as well. But, while that's a philosophical truth, it doesn't change the fact that I rather have a forum I enjoy, then one I don't. Enjoying doesn't mean I want to see only 'oh, how wonderful! Nothing bad can be said about it." fanboy-reactions. I agree with you those can be annoying too. But so do bashing/trolling oneliner posts.

Arguments? In most one liners there aren't any arguments to begin with. The few I got, I answered already in earlier posts. But contrary to some, I don't feel the need to continuously repeat it. In fact, in my last post - you know, the one that got deleted because you guys trolled a bit too much - I actually agreed with some of it. But in the end, the appreciation of things remains subjective, indeed. If someone says "I hate the incest part." and another says 'I love the wincest part', then that is it. It's a different appreciation of the same thing. The one opinion isn't worth more than the other, however. At least, not without arguments. But if it boils down to taste, than there isn't really any argumentation left. It doesn't do anything to mitigate the annoyance caused by always repeating it week after week, however. That goes for "I love wincest scenes" as much as "I hate the incest scenes". Rince repeat.

So, ok, we get it. Nothing to add there, so let's move on. The only thing I can say is, it makes more sense for someone loving (or at least liking) the series to keep watching it, then for someone who dislikes it.

I mean, c'mon. I've had my share of boring or (for me) uninteresting anime as well. I just drop them after a few episodes, once I know or realise it's not my thing. That's what you normally do. People have an interest in something BECAUSE they find it interesting or like it. There is that, and there is need (like having to know something to get something to work, even if you don't enjoy it much - like reading a manual of a machine). But that doesn't count for an anime. One watches anime because one enjoys it, or wants to enjoy oneself. It's entertainment, after all. If you don't enjoy it, there is no reason to watch it; nobody is forcing you to watch it.

The fact that so many bashers claim they find it boring YET continue to watch it, is contradictory, unless there is something else derived from it, that they do enjoy. And, indeed, that is exactly the case. That's why they don't only continue to watch it, but they keep saying how boring they thought it to be on the forum, week after week. Why is that? I mean, one could just watch it without complaining about it, after all, if it wasn't the interest for the anime that keeps you watching in the first place. And then the reason becomes apparent: it is just BECAUSE they can complain here week after week and know they annoy others with it, they keep doing it. The interest - what they like - isn't in the anime, it's in the stirring of things and trying to evoke a reaction on the forum, especially from those they perceive as 'fanboys'. But since that is the main point, those reactions *are* trollish in nature.

AnimageNebyJun 30, 2014 12:26 AM

Jun 29, 2014 12:41 PM

#160

Nidhoeggr

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I am just masochist that likes to make fun of bad movies.
I even have a trash movie collection here.

You don't have to like or enjoy soemthing to derive something out of it. By now it is morbid curiosity on my side. How obvious can it get? When will the tatsuya wank stop? These questions demand further research!

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jun 29, 2014 12:46 PM

#161

wrenchbread

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Nidhoeggr said:
I am just masochist that likes to make fun of bad movies.
I even have a trash movie collection here.

You don't have to like or enjoy soemthing to derive something out of it. By now it is morbid curiosity on my side. How obvious can it get? When will the tatsuya wank stop? These questions demand further research!

Watching and enjoying things ironically is totally a thing. I thought Event Horizon was a terrible scifi horror film, but viewing it from the angle of a batshit crazy Satan obsessed work in space, it's actually pretty hilarious and made the watch worth it.

Jun 29, 2014 12:48 PM

#162

ichii_1

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wrenchbread said:

ichii_1 said:

As they should he is a handsome, respectable, hardworking and a very capable guy, who wants a average looking jealous guy like Morisaki?

Now you're just spamming. And people call me a troll.

Commenting on your post and discussing why Tatsuya>>>>> Morisaki is spamming and trolling? :O
Please go sit down on the bench.

Jun 29, 2014 12:50 PM

#163

wrenchbread

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ichii_1 said:

Commenting on your post and discussing why Tatsuya>>>>> Morisaki is spamming and trolling? :O
Please go sit down on the bench.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KtYwWsVKU4

Jun 29, 2014 1:10 PM

#164

AnimageNeby

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wrenchbread said:

Nidhoeggr said:
I am just masochist that likes to make fun of bad movies.
I even have a trash movie collection here.

You don't have to like or enjoy soemthing to derive something out of it. By now it is morbid curiosity on my side. How obvious can it get? When will the tatsuya wank stop? These questions demand further research!

Watching and enjoying things ironically is totally a thing. I thought Event Horizon was a terrible scifi horror film, but viewing it from the angle of a batshit crazy Satan obsessed work in space, it's actually pretty hilarious and made the watch worth it.

That can be, but that's a purely personal appreciation. You do not enjoy the movie/anime as it is, you enjoy what you make of it in your own head.

It' fine to be a masochist if it only involves yourself. It's not fine if you try to involve others in it; then it becomes sado-masochism.

In itself, one could otherwise even argue that just the pleasure of trolling is all that is needed as justification to post (trolling) here. No doubt that can be hilarious for a troller too. No doubt he can say, as well, that he doesn't need to like it, as long as he 'derives' something out of it.

That's all very well possible.

However, 'no man is an island'. When on a forum, you are part of a community (based in its loose sociological sense). Like in every group of people, some proper conduct is expected. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a forum about an anime, is meant as a playground to portray personal masochistic traits. There are other forums for that.

If this weren't true, Nidhoeggr (at least I think it was him) wouldn't have been banned by a moderator last time (or at least his most trollish posts got deleted - and mine with it, because I responded with his quote in it). I personally deplore banning, since I'm a free speech proponent, but I'm also realist enough to know it can't always be avoided. You know as well as I do, that any forum left unchecked would end in complete chaos and - ultimately - (self)destruction of that forum. Personally, I find that a pity. I'm for free speech. But the sad truth is, some people just can't contain themselves in wrecking it for all others as well. Sure, that doesn't happen with one negative one-liner. But you'll have to agree it gets annoying after a while of the same negativism without a sign of wanting to have a decent debate week after week. One can argue fanboy-remarks do the same, but there the underlying topic IS and remains the anime, it's not some masochistic drive or a wilfully ironical representation or an easy way for a bashfest. If the main focus is the anime, it is normal conduct to express one thoughts about it on an anime-forum. If it's a personal masochistic tendency you experience and like to portray, this anime-forum is NOT the place for it.

AnimageNebyJun 29, 2014 1:23 PM

Jun 29, 2014 1:30 PM

#165

wrenchbread

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AnimageNeby said:
snip

This is all very vague, though what sane people do, even if they enjoyed a work ironically, is that they can share their experience with other people. That should be a universal constant in all forms of discussion. Now, it's only a problem if that same person is forcing other people to abide by that one view without making a compelling case for themselves (I'd like to think I try at the very least).

Also, I'm not sure if that S&M analogy works. You support free speech but tell "masochists" to keep to themselves. Your experience can only be ruined if you let it be, so either ignore it or report it. Honestly, if you want to get down to it, why post at all if someone is gonna get mad?

Jun 29, 2014 1:30 PM

#166

Akio-kun

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Jun 2013

709

Someone has to turn off his swagger before more people get jealous lol

Akio-kunJun 30, 2014 9:23 PM

Jun 29, 2014 1:41 PM

#167

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

This is all very vague, though what sane people do, even if they enjoyed a work ironically, is that they can share their experience with other people. That should be a universal constant in all forms of discussion. Now, it's only a problem if that same person is forcing other people to abide by that one view without making a compelling case for themselves (I'd like to think I try at the very least).

Also, I'm not sure if that S&M analogy works. You support free speech but tell "masochists" to keep to themselves. Your experience can only be ruined if you let it be, so either ignore it or report it. Honestly, if you want to get down to it, why post at all if someone is gonna get mad?

What sane people do, is share their experiences with people that like the same experiences, or at least are interested in it. What sane people do, is sharing those experiences in channels that are meant for it.

What sane people don't do, is share their experiences that have no bearing on the topic itself, on forums that aren't suited nor intended for it, to people who they know get annoyed with it.

Not at all. I say they can speak about their drives, but in places that are suited for it. Or in general-purpose threads. This, however, is neither a forum specialised in SM or ironical creations, nor a general purpose social-debate forum. It's a forum dedicated to anime. Therefore, the focus should be about the anime, not about SM or anything else. I think this rather obvious.

Jun 29, 2014 1:50 PM

#168

wrenchbread

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AnimageNeby said:

What sane people do, is share their experiences with people that like the same experiences, or at least are interested in it. What sane people do, is sharing those experiences in channels that are meant for it.

What sane people don't do, is share their experiences that have no bearing on the topic itself, on forums that aren't suited nor intended for it, to people who they know get annoyed with it.

Not at all. I say they can speak about their drives, but in places that are suited for it. Or in general-purpose threads. This, however, is neither a forum specialised in SM or ironical creations, nor a general purpose social-debate forum. It's a forum dedicated to anime. Therefore, the focus should be about the anime, not about SM or anything else. I think this rather obvious.

This is the Mahouka anime forum. I think it's safe to say that anything pertaining to Mahouka fits here, including, but not exclusive to, other people's interpretations of Mahouka. And I said before, if you want an echo chamber, you can make a club. Then the people there can share all the same experiences they like, eventually parroting each other. Forums are not a hivemind.

If you don't want a club, you can make a Mahouka appreciation thread. Have all the fans gather there.

A post detailing a person's experience with the latest Mahouka episode deserves to be in the latest episode thread, no?

You know, aren't we just agreeing with each other? W're saying rather obvious things in a circular fashion, so what the hell?

Jun 29, 2014 1:52 PM

#169

Takuan_Soho

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Oct 2012

6648

wrenchbread said:
Watching and enjoying things ironically is totally a thing.

I personally have always found it ironic that nothing in the Alanis Morissette song "Ironic" is actually ironic :-)

As for the readers who have been saying "I didn't notice it as being so annoying in the novels", the ironic thing is that everything in this show is directly from the novel.

However if your defense, there were other things in the novel so that it didn't seem so blatant, but the animation has stripped out those other things so what you have left over is annoying. This doesn't insult the novelist by any means, what it actually shows is what the adapters think is important.

I find this a bit telling because they have already undermined the very name of the series: far from being an "irregular" in the sense of being unknown, Tatsuya has been made the very opposite. I hate to say this but from the start it seemed apparent that the adapters had no respect for the series, they think having Miyuki being all incesty and Tatsuya all OP was what people liked about this show, so that is most of what they kept when they "adapted" this.

This episode though was a nice change, I hope it continues.

Jun 29, 2014 2:37 PM

#170

MagicianX26

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Feb 2014

95

Nidhoeggr said:
The Tatsuya praise was even stronger than in the weeks before this. Otherwise the competition remains lame as Taku Iwasaki remixes his Jojo 2012 OST - only in boring. Also laughed at how Tatsuya is getting all the praise instead of the athletes, the dumb reasoning for reducing the girls to dressup dolls and the fact that First High is obviously cheating with that blinding spell.

I actually believe CAD is a metaphor for penis/vagina by now. Just replace the words with it and change "calibrating" to "penetrating" and you know what kind of power fantasy you are watching. It really sounds like a bad fanfic from fanfiction.net then.

*spit take* Excuse me?

Your comparison is...... I have no words.

That aside, I...think...nvr mind, just read the LN. You will enjoy the LN far better than the anime.
That said, that bro-sis scene was OVERDONE.

I spent my time here nowadays: [url=forums.spacebattles.com]Spacebattles Forums[/url]

Its been a while since I came to MAL. Ignore my old posts please, they were dumb.

Jun 29, 2014 2:39 PM

#171

jakkubus

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May 2013

696

AnimageNeby said:
blah blah blah

So just made club for Mahouka's circlejerkers fans only.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jun 29, 2014 2:41 PM

#172

MagicianX26

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Feb 2014

95

Didn't I just argue the ethics of a forum with someone just now?

I spent my time here nowadays: [url=forums.spacebattles.com]Spacebattles Forums[/url]

Its been a while since I came to MAL. Ignore my old posts please, they were dumb.

Jun 29, 2014 2:43 PM

#173

MagicianX26

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Feb 2014

95

jakkubus said:

AnimageNeby said:
blah blah blah

So just made club for Mahouka's circlejerkers fans only.

Best not. I rather listen to two-sided arguments.

I spent my time here nowadays: [url=forums.spacebattles.com]Spacebattles Forums[/url]

Its been a while since I came to MAL. Ignore my old posts please, they were dumb.

Jun 29, 2014 2:43 PM

#174

Nidhoeggr

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Apr 2009

5716

MagicianX26 said:

Nidhoeggr said:
The Tatsuya praise was even stronger than in the weeks before this. Otherwise the competition remains lame as Taku Iwasaki remixes his Jojo 2012 OST - only in boring. Also laughed at how Tatsuya is getting all the praise instead of the athletes, the dumb reasoning for reducing the girls to dressup dolls and the fact that First High is obviously cheating with that blinding spell.

I actually believe CAD is a metaphor for penis/vagina by now. Just replace the words with it and change "calibrating" to "penetrating" and you know what kind of power fantasy you are watching. It really sounds like a bad fanfic from fanfiction.net then.

*spit take* Excuse me?

Your comparison is...... I have no words.

That aside, I...think...nvr mind, just read the LN. You will enjoy the LN far better than the anime.
That said, that bro-sis scene was OVERDONE.

Why? It is kinda obvious:
All the girls want Tatsuya to "calibrate" their "CADs", because he is "the best at calibrating" due to his "engineering" skills. And since "calibrating CADS is like laying out your utmost feelings" (Roughly the wording of a few lines directly taken from this episode!) and makes all the girls blush, cry out with joy and cause them to flock around Tatsuya and hail him as the "best at calibrating" the other guys get angry. Why? Because their "CADs" are not as as amazing as the ones Tatsuya "calibrated" and are jealous. Very subtle.

*Cue bad jokes about Tatsuya's "Silver Horn"*

NidhoeggrJun 29, 2014 2:56 PM

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jun 29, 2014 2:53 PM

#175

RunAhriRun

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Dec 2012

17

MagicianX26 said:

jakkubus said:

So just made club for Mahouka's circlejerkers fans only.

Best not. I rather listen to two-sided arguments.

I don't really see a point of arguing both sides, not that I don't enjoy doing so. Everyone has different criteria for what they deem quality, and there's not much anyone can do to change anyone's mind.

Jun 29, 2014 3:02 PM

#176

AnimageNeby

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Feb 2013

623

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:

What sane people do, is share their experiences with people that like the same experiences, or at least are interested in it. What sane people do, is sharing those experiences in channels that are meant for it.

What sane people don't do, is share their experiences that have no bearing on the topic itself, on forums that aren't suited nor intended for it, to people who they know get annoyed with it.

Not at all. I say they can speak about their drives, but in places that are suited for it. Or in general-purpose threads. This, however, is neither a forum specialised in SM or ironical creations, nor a general purpose social-debate forum. It's a forum dedicated to anime. Therefore, the focus should be about the anime, not about SM or anything else. I think this rather obvious.

This is the Mahouka anime forum. I think it's safe to say that anything pertaining to Mahouka fits here, including, but not exclusive to, other people's interpretations of Mahouka. And I said before, if you want an echo chamber, you can make a club. Then the people there can share all the same experiences they like, eventually parroting each other. Forums are not a hivemind.

If you don't want a club, you can make a Mahouka appreciation thread. Have all the fans gather there.

A post detailing a person's experience with the latest Mahouka episode deserves to be in the latest episode thread, no?

You know, aren't we just agreeing with each other? W're saying rather obvious things in a circular fashion, so what the hell?

An ironical interpretation, where you know it's not the actual anime, BUT an ironical interpretation, is by definition NOT the anime anymore. It is as you said yourself in your example; you thought Event Horizon was a terrible scifi horror film. That's your actual impression of the film. You then went and looked at it as an ironical fabrication of a batshit crazy Satan obsessed work in space. However, and let's be honest now - you *know* that is a wilful interpretation of yourself. (I found Event Horizon pretty bad myself, btw). If you are discussing that confabulation you made for ironic purposes, are you still debating Event Horizon, however? I think not. What you are then discussing, is exactly what you say you're discussing: an ironic representation of it.

Now, I don't know how the mods are around here. Personally, I wouldn't ban or delete ones' post just because he made an exposure of a confabulated ironic version of an animeseries. I don't say I would appreciate it or find it interesting (depends on what/how he says it), but I wouldn't mind it much, if it was once. I would mind it, if it was all he was talking about though, and if he kept going on about it, to the annoyance of all.

That's probably 'where's the line' you asked for comes from. You know as well there is no absolutely unambiguous line to be drawn; when is trop too much? What is relevant/on topic and what not? However, there is little doubt there is a line, in every forum. You must be aware that continuously bashing with one-liners puts you closer to that line.

About the 'echo-club': mind you that all three aspects were involved. (The wrong topic in the wrong place to people who have no interest in that topic). I never said one can't ever say anything no-one else may find annoying. Heck, I've done the same as well. You can't say ANY criticism in some threads, or some fanboy will get annoyed. I understand your references to that, and I agree. However, the opposite is as annoying too, that's all what I'm pointing out. While there is no clear line, I did give indications where you can have a good idea what posts are meant to engage in a fruitful or at least interesting debate, and which ones don't. Not being able or be allowed to give ANY criticism is not the same as constantly, week after week, giving bashing one-liners.

Saying I'm talking about an echo-chamber/club because I deplore the latter, while you act as if I talk about the former, is a bit much. You seem like a fairly reasonable and well versed person, to be frank. I wouldn't mind a good debate on several issues of the anime. However, that doesn't mean I'll appreciate one-liners as 'BOOOORRRING!" any more as before. And if it's repeated week after week, it becomes annoying, it's as simple as that. I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from. This does not mean you can never give any criticism. In fact, that would make the place dull, in the long run. But I remain of the opinion there is a difference between the two. The difference lies in the intention, as well as the form and style of the post, but I already discussed that earlier.

It could be we are agreeing on things in the principle of the matter, but I also feel we're interpreting some things differently. Look at the current discussion; while it's off-topic, because it's a discussion in a meta-sense about discussing an anime, on itself it's a great example of what I mean. THIS is a discussion. We both give input, we both explain our line of reasoning, we both remain calm and rational and aren't flamebaiting or give emo-driven responses. We substantiate our reasoning with logical arguments, or at least try to. We also expect the other to do the same, and thus, in a way, invite the other to debate it further.

If we both had said: "You suck" and "Go bore your mommy" or some other meaningless comment (look at jakkubus post, for instance) I doubt we would have managed to discuss anything. And it would probably end in some ban or something. And frankly, if we both would have dealt with eachothers' posts as a self created confabulation of an ironic interpretation of that what was actually said, it wouldn't have worked neither. Nor if you considered it a showcase for any SM-tendencies. ;-)

Point is, if you're interested in debating the anime itself, there are better ways to do it then posting negative one-liners with mere (rather bashful) opinions week after week, or using your own ironic confabulation of it, etc. You must realise, that gets old and annoying, just as fanboys are with their exalted exclamations. But with those, it at least makes sense - the posts themselves are as worthless, true - that they keep watching it and talking about it, *because* they like it. It makes less sense when you don't. Yes, because of SM tendencies and ironic confabulations...but not because of the anime itself. And, as said, the forum, in essence, is about the anime itself, at least primordially. If you argue that secondary/derived pleasure from it is as good as talking directly about the anime, then nothing is stopping someone from argumenting that he can post troll-posts because he derives 'something' from that neither. And when pointed out it isn't about the anime, he could then, as you do, claim "Ah, but I'm trolling ABOUT the Mahouka anime and I troll Mahouka fans. This is the Mahouka anime forum. Thus I think it's safe to say that anything pertaining to Mahouka fits here, including, but not exclusive to, trolling other people in the Mahouka forum".

Ermm...well, no, it doesn't work that way. Off-topic posts may be allowed - like this one- , but they are NOT the primary focus of the forum, and neither are SM-tendencies and ironic confabulations of an anime. It can be tolerated, but it's not an inherent right one has. The (rightful) expectation in a forum of a certain anime, is that the posts are about the anime itself. It's a limitation on free speech, true, but then again, this is not a free-speech forum. ;-) The more you deviate from that, the more you are, in a way, transgressing the unwritten (and sometimes written) rules of conduct. One post about a confabulation you have about the anime:...I don't think anyone will have much problems with it. 35 times saying how boring you think the anime is, and that week after week, for 13 episodes long, and only because the person in question 'derives' something masochistic out of it... gets annoying.

AnimageNebyJun 29, 2014 3:18 PM

Jun 29, 2014 3:16 PM

#177

Asturaetus

Offline

Jun 2010

1212

jakkubus said:

AnimageNeby said:
blah blah blah

So just made club for Mahouka's circlejerkers fans only.

Im somewhat astounded - the fans are accused of circlejerking or echoing while at the same time I get the impression that all that the so called "critiques" ammount to - is also just this. Circlejerking. Getting of from spouting how much they don't like the show. Knowing that the vocal majority also doesn't like the show. Repeating unisono.

Jun 29, 2014 3:29 PM

#178

wrenchbread

Offline

May 2010

418

AnimageNeby said:
snip

I still stand by the idea that any reading of Mahouka has its place in the Mahouka forum. Yes, that includes making fun of the things it does. Otherwise [amusing, crazy, etc.] fan theories or breakdowns that try to make sense of some of the more... incomprehensible shows would be thrown out with the bathwater.

Just wanna confirm, if another person did the exact opposite, that is, saying "this is great!" week after week, what would you do? Would you condemn it as much?

And I dunno why you're so focused on masochism or irony. The discussions I'm referring to aren't exclusive to just those two ideas. I don't think I'm particularly hurting myself. I don't think I'm hurting another person (unless someone somewhere identifies too much with the work someone else is criticizing). I think being able to consider irony or any sort of humor in a work is just as valid as the surface reading. I'm sure you've learned how to analyze literature. Every possible perspective is valid in a forum for discussion. Whether or not you think the specific content, as in, the specifics (e.g. Tatsuya is annoyed at all the girls around him) is valid is the one thing up for debate. Now, if you wanna create separate threads for ironic interpretations (memes, jokes, satire, etc.) I guess you can, but the general episode thread will have to make do until one is made. Until you're a mod or put the report button to use, you're just gonna have to accept this.

NeoGAF, one of the most respectable English gaming forums on the internet doesn't have entire separate sections for the different games we talk about because it wasn't built for it. We made do with "Official Threads (OTs)." All posts that praise, hate, elucidate, criticize, analyze, etc. all go into these megathreads. And it works. Why? Because of proper moderation. Because you don't have to pay mind to everything written. As long as you're on topic. As long as you don't attack another user. No racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. You should try reading what gets posted in the FFXIII threads sometime. It gets superheated, with jokes made in between all the word flinging, and people come out of it just fine, for the most part. (Yes, people are still butthurt over it to this day.)

wrenchbreadJun 29, 2014 3:37 PM

Jun 29, 2014 3:54 PM

#179

Flashoftheback

Offline

Feb 2014

1170

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

I still stand by the idea that any reading of Mahouka has its place in the Mahouka forum. Yes, that includes making fun of the things it does. Otherwise [amusing, crazy, etc.] fan theories or breakdowns that try to make sense of some of the more... incomprehensible shows would be thrown out with the bathwater.

Just wanna confirm, if another person did the exact opposite, that is, saying "this is great!" week after week, what would you do? Would you condemn it as much?

And I dunno why you're so focused on masochism or irony. The discussions I'm referring to aren't exclusive to just those two ideas. I don't think I'm particularly hurting myself. I don't think I'm hurting another person (unless someone somewhere identifies too much with the work someone else is criticizing). I think being able to consider irony or any sort of humor in a work is just as valid as the surface reading. I'm sure you've learned how to analyze literature. Every possible perspective is valid in a forum for discussion. Whether or not you think the specific content, as in, the specifics (e.g. Tatsuya is annoyed at all the girls around him) is valid is the one thing up for debate. Now, if you wanna create separate threads for ironic interpretations (memes, jokes, satire, etc.) I guess you can, but the general episode thread will have to make do until one is made. Until you're a mod or put the report button to use, you're just gonna have to accept this.

NeoGAF, one of the most respectable English gaming forums on the internet doesn't have entire separate sections for the different games we talk about because it wasn't built for it. We made do with "Official Threads (OTs)." All posts that praise, hate, elucidate, criticize, analyze, etc. all go into these megathreads. And it works. Why? Because of proper moderation. Because you don't have to pay mind to everything written. As long as you're on topic. As long as you don't attack another user. No racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. You should try reading what gets posted in the FFXIII threads sometime. It gets superheated, with jokes made in between all the word flinging, and people come out of it just fine, for the most part. (Yes, people are still butthurt over it to this day.)

Well, so subjective, isn't it?
Saying about SM thing.
Is not blindly like things when it actually bad are on term with Masochist, too?? Not it in my capacities to spoon feeding you. But with all matter are subjective thus with he claiming others who have negative opinion as masochist was surely hypocrite himself.

He rant too much over pointless thing, rather just talk about what makes you think it is a good show to counter what i think about this show is bad, that's more relevant.

Jun 29, 2014 4:14 PM

#180

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

Asturaetus said:

jakkubus said:

So just made club for Mahouka's circlejerkers fans only.

Im somewhat astounded - the fans are accused of circlejerking or echoing while at the same time I get the impression that all that the so called "critiques" ammount to - is also just this. Circlejerking. Getting of from spouting how much they don't like the show. Knowing that the vocal majority also doesn't like the show. Repeating unisono.

Ah, it was a prime example of what I was talking about to another poster: a troll-post. His sole purpose was to be provocative with it. It certainly wasn't to engage in any meaningful way in the debate.

To be honest, I don't even consider myself a fanboy. I think Mahou is reasonably ok, but I can't say it's the best anime out there, not with a long shot. It has it's weaknesses, like pacing that isn't always done right. I think there is little denying there is room for improvement.

That's criticism. Valid criticism, at that. But that is also something else than coming here on the forum and saying how boring everything was, and how one dislikes it - as some do, week after week. If you dislike it so much, drop it. If you 'derive' some secondary pleasure out of it because of masochistic tendencies or something, at least don't annoy others with your personal derived pleasure. It's that simple.

All in all, I think the anime is reasonably enjoyable. Not great, but not all that bad neither. It's one of the better anime in this season (granted, it was a weak season, with little high-flyers, apart 1 or 2).

Of course, some things simply boil down to personal taste. Some people hate the bro-siscon complex-incesty-thing. I have no problem with it. Even if one has an ethical problem with it - and I don't, because I make a distinction between an anime and real life - the more seasoned anime-watcher should be aware the incest-thing is a very typical trope of anime. Just like the lolicon trop, the bathroom/naked trope, etc. I mean, in a way, it's ingrained in anime, and certainly in shounen and shoujo. It's part of the house, as it were. Complaining about that is as complaining about anime having a drawing style where people usually have big eyes. Ermm...right. I mean, people who are used to anime should at least not be surprised, chocked or annoyed by those scenes. Is it the epitome of originality? No. But it's nothing to get riled up about neither. Complaining about it, is like complaining there are many girls swarming around one guy, in a harem-anime. It's to be expected, in a way.

Then some complain about the lack of interaction of the MC. But frankly, I think that suits him. He's portraying an under-cooled, rational, social-insensitive genius. His rather sparse and flat speech and other interactions actually fit this character very well. He doesn't show much emotional development, but he IS not very social. He's pretty formal and as someone complained 'he doesn't speak like a student', but he IS a pretty formal character and not an ordinary student. So, you know...I'm not saying one can't argue his character is 'bland', but I think this 'blandness' suits him rather well for the character in the anime.

He's too OP? So are a buckload of other MC in other anime. That too, is a trope often used. It doesn't keep one from enjoying anime though, or at least, it shouldn't. I can agree to some level that, sooner or later, he needs some more 'trouble' in achieving his goal(s): if it's always as easy as taking a piss in everything he does, it does lessen the tension. But that's why that shooting-genius of the third school was introduced, I imagine. One can presume the MC will still be victorious - it's just that kind of anime, one should have realised this by now - at least it will give a bit more tension. But one must be reasonable: there are very few shounen where the MC isn't OP in some way. It's almost the defining characteristic of the MC in shounen, in fact. And even when not at the start, then he'll get phenomenally strong in a very short time (Bleach, anyone?). Wouldn't people have complained about such a classical path as well, though? And that said, while he's OP in one area, he's also depicted as pretty weak in actual spellcasting at least as far as 'brute' magical power is concerned. That gives a little extra twist to it.

So, where, exactly, is the validity in the complaints? Does Mahou explodes with originality? No, true, it uses many established tropes in anime. That doesn't mean it's a bad anime, though. Unless you expect every semi-harem-shounen to be at the level of Shin Sekai Yori, Psycho Pass or Fate/zero, that conclusion makes no sense.

As said, there are some issues: the pacing isn't very good. The fights are a bit underwhelming as of yet. I'm not a fanboy in the sense that I can't see there are some things that could be improved upon. But on the other hand, I don't think the series deserves all the negativity some spout constantly. At least, not if you keep your expectations of a harem-like-shounen reasonable. Futhermore, on the technical side, the animation and the OST/sound is pretty high quality.

Content-wise, what I especially found interesting and intriguing and, indeed, pretty novel, is the concept of intertwining magic with science (the cads/software/spellcasting system). I also loved the explanation of it by the MC and others (some were complaining about it, being 'too much talk'...I think, on the contrary, that that was interesting). I'm also curious and intrigued by the exact relationship between the brother and the sister, which goes further than the wincest/brocon thing, obviously. They made vague hints about something of a special (magical?) link between the two, which they want to keep a secret. What? Why? This evokes some curiosity on my part. People who don't care about any of that, well, they lack that reason to appreciate it a bit more then, I guess. I can't help that, however. I'm just saying that, with the right expectations for the genre, and if you also consider the good points, the anime can be considered ok to fairly good.

AnimageNebyJun 30, 2014 12:49 AM

Jun 29, 2014 4:42 PM

#181

Fiji

Offline

Dec 2011

6101

I would have been fine if the others matches were just sneak previewed, didn't expect we will see them all animated.

Now we see that Tatsuya and that Third Highschool guy meet. I wonder what will happen next.

Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines.

Jun 29, 2014 5:39 PM

#182

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

I still stand by the idea that any reading of Mahouka has its place in the Mahouka forum. Yes, that includes making fun of the things it does. Otherwise [amusing, crazy, etc.] fan theories or breakdowns that try to make sense of some of the more... incomprehensible shows would be thrown out with the bathwater.

Just wanna confirm, if another person did the exact opposite, that is, saying "this is great!" week after week, what would you do? Would you condemn it as much?

And I dunno why you're so focused on masochism or irony. The discussions I'm referring to aren't exclusive to just those two ideas. I don't think I'm particularly hurting myself. I don't think I'm hurting another person (unless someone somewhere identifies too much with the work someone else is criticizing). I think being able to consider irony or any sort of humor in a work is just as valid as the surface reading. I'm sure you've learned how to analyze literature. Every possible perspective is valid in a forum for discussion. Whether or not you think the specific content, as in, the specifics (e.g. Tatsuya is annoyed at all the girls around him) is valid is the one thing up for debate. Now, if you wanna create separate threads for ironic interpretations (memes, jokes, satire, etc.) I guess you can, but the general episode thread will have to make do until one is made. Until you're a mod or put the report button to use, you're just gonna have to accept this.

NeoGAF, one of the most respectable English gaming forums on the internet doesn't have entire separate sections for the different games we talk about because it wasn't built for it. We made do with "Official Threads (OTs)." All posts that praise, hate, elucidate, criticize, analyze, etc. all go into these megathreads. And it works. Why? Because of proper moderation. Because you don't have to pay mind to everything written. As long as you're on topic. As long as you don't attack another user. No racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. You should try reading what gets posted in the FFXIII threads sometime. It gets superheated, with jokes made in between all the word flinging, and people come out of it just fine, for the most part. (Yes, people are still butthurt over it to this day.)

Ermm...I didn't come up with the masochist thing. Neither with the ironical confabulation of something. Those were you guys' examples.

"Nidhoeggr said:
I am just masochist that likes to make fun of bad movies."

And you came up with the irony-thing.

Thus, I'm basically focussing on these examples because that were the examples you yourselves provided. ;-)

"Just wanna confirm, if another person did the exact opposite, that is, saying "this is great!" week after week, what would you do? Would you condemn it as much?"

Hmm. I would certainly find it as worthless as any other unsubstantiated and repetitive comment. Positive and negative don't matter in this respect. Would I react as much against it? Probably not - though I have done so a few times when it really became too blatant as well. The reason being, what I already said: one may reasonably expect, in an anime forum, that people talk about the anime they like. It's not about a secondary derived pleasure, it's directly related to the anime. It's therefore more on-topic, even if it's as worthless in my eyes. It's also less prone to be put there to get some reaction out of others. I'm simply not naïve enough to consider all those negativistic one-liners - some are blatantly provocative - as mere invites for a reasonable and constructive dialogue. If a fanboy here says how great everything is, I don't think he does it to annoy others, nor to elicit a reaction or response of the 'basher' crowd. The trolling aspect is much less, thus. They would still say how much they loved it, even if there were no bashers around. In contrast, I think a lot of the bashing and provocative posts would starkly diminish if no one of the fanboys or others liking the series were here to provoke.

So I'm inclined to ignore those repetitive and little-saying fanboy-posts as being worthless, but reasonable comments which I tolerate (more). The 'reasonable' being the natural expectation that people who like something, will continue watching and thus will continue talk about it. As said, I don't find it a reasonable expectation of someone who DISLIKES the series and is very vocal about how boring it is and what not, to continue to not only watch it, but also continue complaining about it, week after week. This is not normally within the line of what can be expected, unless there are ulterior motives behind the continuous complaints. The one I explicitly heard mention is that it was an invitation to debate. However, as I pointed out, the repetition, the form, the style, the lack of argumentation etc. is not conductive to open a debate, I therefore find it highly dubious that that would be the main reason of continuous complaining. Positive reiterated remarks are understandable in the sense that it's the most obvious way of dealing with a series one likes. The most obvious way to deal with a series one doesn't like, is not watching it, however. Not watching it is a perfect alternative for those that find something boring to watch.

It could be, as you say, that some of the bashers have some peculiar secondary pleasure in keeping complaining about something you keep watching though you don't like it, but one can hardly call that a reasonable expectation. It is, frankly, weird. I'm not trying to be judgemental here, I'm just saying as it is: normally, people do not waste their time on things they don't like, if the point of it is, exactly to entertain oneself. Even bashing and trolling could be considered to give pleasure to those that do the trolling (in fact, it almost always does), but that doesn't mean we should consider troll-posts as being a 'normal' way and certainly not a welcome way of conduct on a forum. To a lesser degree, this is true with posts that are hovering between troll-posts and just reiterated bashing one-liner posts. The most logical consideration there, is that it's neither an invitation for an interesting debate, nor behaviour that would be the most logical - namely not watching a series one doesn't like, just as watching a series one *does* like is also normal. The question then becomes - and with it, the rather natural suspicion - : why does someone keep watching and complaining and whining about a series that he doesn't like, instead of doing the obvious? I got two reasons: MS feelings and ironic confabulations. But why would that make it reasonable, or at least, have to be considered a normal way of dealing with it? I mean, what is it to us, that you derive some secondary pleasure out of it? Why would that differ with a real troll, who derives secondary pleasure out of trolling too? Should we allow trolls to flamebait too, then?

I'm sorry, but, while I can see how you think you have the right - and, on itself, you have - to consider secondary derived pleasure as equally valid as posts directly portraying to the anime itself, I do not think this is the case. At the very least, it can't be considered normal behaviour, within the context of watching and commenting (and especially 'keep' watching and commenting something while you don't like it while one keeps saying one doesn't like it, ad infinitum). That, well, basically is the definition of complaining and whining, and no-one likes whiners. SM feelings and what not withstanding, (concerning entertainment in) life is normally considered too short to keep focusing on things you don't like and find boring, when one could as well spend their time on things one does find interesting or fun to do. I find the apparently(?) uncontrollable tendency of some to show off how much they dislike something week after week, when they could and should just drop it then, far more alienating than someone who week after week says how much he likes it. Well, of course he keeps watching it, then; that's the whole point of seeking entertainment. And of course he's more prone to saying how much he likes it; that's because he DOES watch it every week, and that's the obvious consequence of and *because* he likes it.

In fact, if I had to compare the absurdity of continue to keep watching and complaining about something one doesn't like, instead of just dropping it and moving to something else, it would be someone enjoying a series and dropping it because he likes it so much and he has fun watching it. I dunno. Maybe such a person has a masochistic nature too? Could be. In any case, without external factors, it makes as much sense: next to none.

As for moderating systems; indeed, there are better ones. Personally, I like the system on slashdot: there, you can evaluate the posts yourself. The better they are genuinely appreciated by the community, the higher they get. You can then set your own level of what you want to see and what not. Those you don't care about, get immediately and automatically 'under your radar' and won't show up. It's a reasonable effective system, and lets a lot of options to the user/poster/reader. Simply put, you can auto-ignore crap posts. This wouldn't mitigate the making of such posts, of course, but at least it wouldn't bother anyone as well. I think it would not be appreciated by the ones seeking out provocation, however; nothing worse for a troll to be completely ignored, after all.

Frankly, I also suspect the amount of bashful one-liner posts would diminish sharply. Let's face it: most of those are there to clash with people not having the same opinion. Not debate. Clash. Very troll-like, thus. If all those posts would get ignored, the sheer amount of those posts would diminish as well, obviously, since that is their purpose; to seek confrontation. The more thoughtful posts still would surface, as most people recognise a worthwhile post from a nonsensical oneliner, be it positive or negative. It would be worthwhile to try something out like that.

AnimageNebyJun 30, 2014 12:59 AM

Jun 29, 2014 5:51 PM

#183

wrenchbread

Offline

May 2010

418

AnimageNeby said:
snip

You ever entertained the idea that people viewing the work as parody is actually a coping mechanism?

Jun 29, 2014 6:41 PM

#184

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

You ever entertained the idea that people viewing the work as parody is actually a coping mechanism?

But is that relevant?

Whether it's a coping mechanism, or a way to portray ones SM tendencies; the question remains whether the forum is meant for that.

Maybe there we differ in an essential way in our thoughts about it. I don't think this forum is here to give an outlet for your coping mechanism, or someone elses' MS-feelings, or yet another persons ADHD or a myriad of other of real or imagined psychological mechanisms and behaviours.

On itself, one could say: ah, why not? The main problem however is, if everyone keeps elevating the forum to his or her own playground of whatever mannerism or mechanism one personally fancies, communication - in the sense of establishing a worthwhile debate- is increasingly unlikely. It also derails a necessary common ground to start with, which is essential to any fruitful debate. If you're talking about the anime but not as the anime is, but as a personal ironic creation of your own volition and imagination, while I am not, it's sheer impossible to have a meaningful debate about it without huge misunderstandings. It maybe a coping mechanism for you, but what is a coping mechanism to you is an obscuritylayer to me.

The same goes for actual definitions of words and terminology. Imagine every person uses his own personally construed definition for each word: tower of Babel would ensue. That's why we have dictionaries and at least try for a common definition for all the words (at it often fails already as it is, without anyone adding to that with the idea that one could as well confabulate ones' own definitions for words).

The same goes for more broader, sociological groups (including forums). It's quite possible it's a coping mechanism for you. But surely you realise, for most of us, such a mechanism is not needed, nor expected? And if it's your intention to have a debate, isn't it more wise to adhere to the most commonly used perception of the anime - which is *without* an ironic coping mechanism? I mean, don't get me wrong: you have the right to use such a mechanism, certainly if it only pertains to and for yourself. And I think it would even be interesting to see what and how exactly you use it on this anime, and why. But, as a whole, when just wanting to debate something, its not recommended to have your own confabulations, ironic or otherwise, to try to engage someone else into a debate about the anime. Other people will have *the anime* in mind, not your ironic construction of it.

Which...is actually normal, since the forum is about the anime, and not a wilfully construed confabulation - out of a way to cope with it.

(Actually, I'm not sure what it is you want to cope with. If something is very bad and unwatchable, I just can say so (and drop it). What is there to cope? Only if, for some reason, you want to force yourself in watching it, do you (maybe) need a coping mechanism in the first place. I think. At least, I don't need such mechanism to enjoy something, since I only watch things I find enjoyable, when I seek entertainment, and I drop those I don't find enjoyable.)

Why is there a need to find a series you dislike likeable by using a mechanism that introduces an imaginary ironic construct of that anime, so that you then can find it passable? What's the use? You still wouldn't like the anime, but your own confabulation of it. And somewhere, you'd always realise that. And why do the effort in the first place. some anime is simple bad, or, at least, in a subjective stance, one finds it crap. There is nothing wrong with finding something crap and than dropping it. I never said that. In fact, I've done so many times myself, and it makes perfectly sense. I think it's far worse to not liking a series but keep watching it, complaining about it, using mechanisms to cope with it, etc.

I don't understand the need for all of that. If you think an anime is worthless, than it is what it is. I can understand disappointment, when one expected more of an anime than it actually delivered, ok. But not to a degree where I try to convince myself (or use any sort of mechanism) it's something it really ain't, and to continue to watch something I don't like to watch.

AnimageNebyJun 29, 2014 6:47 PM

Jun 29, 2014 6:43 PM

#185

wrenchbread

Offline

May 2010

418

AnimageNeby said:
snip

Just a simple question. I didn't expect a wall of text.

Now I think you're just twisting my words. There's a bit of self-deprecating humor with that question, so I'm not sure if you taking this too seriously.

Jun 29, 2014 7:08 PM

#186

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

wrenchbread said:

AnimageNeby said:
snip

Just a simple question. I didn't expect a wall of text.

Now I think you're just twisting my words. There's a bit of self-deprecating humor with that question, so I'm not sure if you taking this too seriously.

Ah, no, sorry, I thought you meant it as a serious question.

Only shows how rapidly people can misunderstand things, even if they don't give own interpretations in strange ways to everything. ;-)

Well, it was an interesting discussion, in a way, albeit a bit off-topic. But it's getting late.

Content (and more on topic) wise you can read my post to Asturaetus to have an inkling of an idea why I think the anime isn't all that bad. It's not 'great', true, but I think it's palatable. You'll maybe note that I'm not flag-waving like a little fangirl. ;-) I try to be balanced about it; denying it has some shortcomings is ludicrous. Saying it's completly worthless is hyperbole as well, however. I still enjoy it, and more than others that I first watched this season (like captain earth, which I dropped because I liked it less and less and it couldn't captivate me enough anymore).

Actually, except Sidonia and Mushi-shi, there were no anime this season which I would regard as 'great'. Doesn't mean I didn't find others mildly enjoyable though. Even GNL had its moments.

Oh yeah, and HxH had some very good moments too (an the ant arc was, overall, excellent). An astounding series, for a shounen, which takes many tropes only to turn them upside down - quite original. But I wouldn't call the series a 'this season' thing, since it's going on for a long, long time by now.

Jun 29, 2014 7:13 PM

#187

Orix

Offline

Jan 2010

418

Holy cow, AnimageNeby, calm down.
If you don't want to see condescending posts about Mahouka, just ignore this thread and move on. Oh, and as a reminder, just because someone is pointing out the faults in every episode doesn't mean that he's a troll. Maybe, just maybe... those faults are so persistent and obvious that they show up in each episode's threads.

Im somewhat astounded - the fans are accused of circlejerking or echoing while at the same time I get the impression that all that the so called "critiques" ammount to - is also just this. Circlejerking. Getting of from spouting how much they don't like the show. Knowing that the vocal majority also doesn't like the show. Repeating unisono.

Circlejerk can only stop if everyone shuts up, so deal with it.

Jun 29, 2014 10:02 PM

#188

KneelBeforeMe

Offline

Apr 2013

7975

this and black bullet are the worse show this season, yet I'm watching both and haven't dropped them yet.. something is wrong with me.

Jun 29, 2014 10:09 PM

#189

KneelBeforeMe

Offline

Apr 2013

7975

ichii_1 said:
^ don't bother, they even admit their trolling sometimes (stupid huh? :D), when that happens just report them, that's what the button's for.

Lol saying the show sucks and stating things that didn't happen, twisting the scenes and dialogue too suit their agenda and they say they aren't trolling, hating and baiting ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and when someone says something positive (see the previous threads) they attack them with their oxymoronic opinions as if they're facts

E.g. "their cheating in the competitions" hahaha the crimson prince just said first high's equipment is generations ahead of them, thanks to Tatsuya who is part of the school and using certain magic is allowed in different events but they (haters) cry "it doen't matter boo hoo hoo" like ******.

Some pics from the episode ;)
Honoka <3 being extra cute and hot this ep.

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10427265_657646667644595_1216251969840356893_n.png
http://i.imgur.com/gAifxOU.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZRb4wNx.png
http://i.imgur.com/TD0mPOJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/1v5IGKS.png
http://i.imgur.com/4lkb8hq.png
http://i.imgur.com/169aNbx.png
http://i.imgur.com/nQo1d4L.png

i would actually find it funny if you were trolling, but realizing you're not, its kinda sad.

Jun 29, 2014 10:27 PM

#190

ichii_1

Offline

Sep 2013

22818

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) if this were happening in the KNB forums then you wouldn't be saying this, would you? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

double standards :(

Jun 29, 2014 10:28 PM

#191

KneelBeforeMe

Offline

Apr 2013

7975

ichii_1 said:
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) if this were happening in the KNB forums then you wouldn't be saying this, would you? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

double standards :(

I'm not even a knb fanboy, nice try tho.

Jun 29, 2014 10:53 PM

#192

h1k1k0m0r1

Offline

May 2014

21

At the very least, it can't be considered normal behaviour, within the context of watching and commenting (and especially 'keep' watching and commenting something while you don't like it while one keeps saying one doesn't like it, ad infinitum).

Writing walls of texts about the people on an anime discussion board... This behavior doesn't seen very normal to me too. It's certainly off-topic, though. So back to being on topic.

Whelp, same old same old our Lord's the best, everyone else is insignificant.

Something about this show made it seem better than the other episodes, though. The lack of explanations? Don't think so... The music, perhaps. Also, quite liked the scene between Tatsuya and Miyuki, since it's about the only storyline I'd like to know about.

Jun 29, 2014 11:01 PM

#193

rladls717

Offline

Jul 2011

381

Honoka's popularity raised because of this episode, or maybe before one or two episodes.
Her crying face image someone posted up, does that counts as cute?
I don't know if that is an insult to a character.
Just my self conlusion though.

I'm sure after Tatsuya goes back to his school, how many more females becomes fangirls over him?
I'm looking forward to that.
Betting on how long Tatsuya can hold it in with his blank face, and what thought pattern he going to take is going to be interesting.
Oh yes, he does not want attention and also some misunderstanding going on with Miyuki.
Tatsuya, you might be thinking your popularity in First High might be going to a hinderance later on for your future plans.
No, maybe his popularity might spread in other magic schools as well.
Too bad that the popularity of Tatsuya in this forum also goes on whether he likes it or not.

rladls717Jun 29, 2014 11:11 PM

Jun 30, 2014 12:18 AM

#194

KumaKing

Offline

Jun 2013

507

INFERRNOOOO

Jun 30, 2014 12:40 AM

#195

Pole_Dancer

Offline

Sep 2012

95

Without sounding like a little girl screaming "Are we there yet?" at the back of my moms car...can I just ask; is it going to get better now that we're in to second cour?

I feel like dropping this series and picking it up once its finished but since everyone in forum is saying that this arc is suppose to be where we get some 'action', I feel I should give the series the benefit of doubt and stick to it a lil more.

...so....are we there yet?

..this space under construction...

Jun 30, 2014 12:43 AM

#196

Nidhoeggr

Offline

Apr 2009

5716

Pole_Dancer said:
Without sounding like a little girl screaming "Are we there yet?" at the back of my moms car...can I just ask; is it going to get better now that we're in to second cour?

I feel like dropping this series and picking it up once its finished but since everyone in forum is saying that this arc is suppose to be where we get some 'action', I feel I should give the series the benefit of doubt and stick to it a lil more.

...so....are we there yet?

I assume not since apparently the first scene of this anime was about the arc that follows suit after this. I guess Jesus is waging war on another nation (probbaly China) because they dared to mock his imouto then - given the social commentary of the series thus far this will only end in some nationalistic propaganda. I also doubt that the core problems of the writing - namely the lack of any suspense through the design of Tatsuya as an unfailable god and the exhausting exposition dump - will vanish soon, or at all.

NidhoeggrJun 30, 2014 12:48 AM

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jun 30, 2014 1:15 AM

#197

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

h1k1k0m0r1 said:

At the very least, it can't be considered normal behaviour, within the context of watching and commenting (and especially 'keep' watching and commenting something while you don't like it while one keeps saying one doesn't like it, ad infinitum).

Writing walls of texts about the people on an anime discussion board... This behavior doesn't seen very normal to me too. It's certainly off-topic, though. So back to being on topic.

Whelp, same old same old our Lord's the best, everyone else is insignificant.

Something about this show made it seem better than the other episodes, though. The lack of explanations? Don't think so... The music, perhaps. Also, quite liked the scene between Tatsuya and Miyuki, since it's about the only storyline I'd like to know about.

Writing 'walls of text' is a natural consequence of wanting to debate something in depth. The fact you don't seem to realise this, well... leaves one wondering how many thoughtful debates you generally make.

You just can't get any of the finer nuances, thought-processes, line of reasoning and substantiation of ones' claims and conclusions with logical arguments in a one-liner. Whether you personally appreciate that, is something else, of course. But it is part of any debate worth its salt.

You are right about it being off-topic, however. I said so myself. In fact, your comment came after my post where I indicated it had been enough for that particular debate, and I referred to my post to Asturaetus.(http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1209649&show=180#msg32064371) to get on the more on-topic debate about the anime again (which you ignored). Feel free to respond to that, which is on-topic, then. (But don't complain about me going off-topic if you continue to do so as well).

Sourire said:
this and black bullet are the worse show this season, yet I'm watching both and haven't dropped them yet.. something is wrong with me.

I would imagine, then, that you still find it interesting enough to continue watching it. The appreciation of what constitutes 'the worst shows' this season is fairly subjective and thus can change individually, of course. But if you actually dislike it and find it boring as hell to watch, and yet you continue to watch it while you could as well watch or search for better things that DO entertain you, than your last conclusion is correct, indeed.

AnimageNebyJun 30, 2014 1:43 AM

Jun 30, 2014 1:44 AM

#198

h1k1k0m0r1

Offline

May 2014

21

Writing 'walls of text' is a natural consequence of wanting to debate something in depth.

Which has nothing to do about the show... Or is anything thoughtful.

(But don't complain about me going off-topic if you continue to do so as well).

I don't believe I continued to do so, since I began my thoughts after that complaint, starting from "whelp..." So I'm not quite sure what you mean...?

But this is going off-topic again, so.

Would be looking forward to the meeting between Ichijou and our Lord. Hopefully something interesting comes out of it.

Jun 30, 2014 2:06 AM

#199

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

h1k1k0m0r1 said:

Writing 'walls of text' is a natural consequence of wanting to debate something in depth.

Which has nothing to do about the show... Or is anything thoughtful.

The first argument pertains to being off-topic or not, which I agreed with. It has no bearing on having 'walls of text' on itself, though.

I disagree with your last point. I thought it considerably thoughtful, of me as well as of wrenchbread. And I suspect he found it to be a rather thoughtful debate and exchange too. It may be you didn't find it thoughtful, but in a debate you only need two people, to be frank. Regardless of your appreciation, my former claim stands: the more in-depth you want to discuss something, the more elaborate your post will get, for the simple reason you need to incorporate more nuance, conclusions and arguments in it. There is no way you can explain your analysis or finer thought-processes in a meaningful way (aka, the what, when, where and why) with a oneliner. Period.

(But don't complain about me going off-topic if you continue to do so as well).

I don't believe I continued to do so, since I began my thoughts after that complaint, starting from "whelp..." So I'm not quite sure what you mean...?

Was your comment to me on topic, though? No it wasn't. So it was off-topic as well. (As is this one). There are no two ways about it. If discussing the anime directly is considered on topic and the rest off-topic, then not only my former 'walls of text' are off-topic, but also complaints about those walls of text.

That you continued in the same post with on-topic sentences too, does little to mitigate the fact that part of it was off-topic as well. If it would be that simple, adding a few words like 'Ah yes, and I liked the anime too!' would be enough to turn all my walls of text relevant and on-topic, and you wouldn't have complained, then? (fat chance). I'll do that right now: I think Myuiki is well drawn. There, I made this post on-topic now as well. Right?

But this is going off-topic again, so.

Indeed it is. So you seem to realise my former point.

But ok, let's hear your thoughts about the anime then. And while you're at it, show me how you can make a thought-provoking and mind-blowing in-depth analysis - or at least the 'what and why' of your reasoning and conclusions, substantiated by logical arguments - with a one-liner. That would be like striking two flies with one stroke.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you feel inclined TO make such posts. I'm just pointing out it would be a nice way to show that it can be done, if your stance is, one doesn't need it for even a thoughtful, in-depth discussion.

AnimageNebyJun 30, 2014 2:22 AM

Jun 30, 2014 2:36 AM

#200

h1k1k0m0r1

Offline

May 2014

21

That you continued in the same post with on-topic sentences too, does little to mitigate the fact that part of it was off-topic as well. If it would be that simple, adding a few words like 'Ah yes, and I liked the anime too!' would be enough to turn all my walls of text relevant and on-topic, and you wouldn't have complained, then? (fat chance). I'll do that right now: I think Myuiki is well drawn. There, I made this post on-topic now as well. Right?

Ah, I see what you mean now. I was still confused about what you mean until you added this paragraph. No, it doesn't make the whole post on-topic, and neither does that line of yours make the whole wall of text on-topic, just that line itself. I guess we have different thoughts on how a post qualifies as "on-topic". You being the whole post having to qualify as on-topic (I think?), and me being only the part where, so long it's about what the thread is for, it's on-topic. Well, learned something new today.

if your stance is, one doesn't need it for even a thoughtful, in-depth discussion.

If it's about the anime, that's fine. But if it's about... Whether the people on the forum's behavior is normal or not, or about them... Or a thoughtful, in-depth discussion about which ramen brand is the best on an anime discussion thread, then... No, one doesn't need that thoughtful, in-depth discussion about it. There are other discussion boards/threads for that.

As for my thoughts on the anime? I believe I've said enough for this episode. Are they thought-provoking, mind-blowing in-depth analyses? No, and at least, I don't think so too, anyway.

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