astroprogs said: ssjokg said: Why do we call a possessed Sakura a spoiled brat?? The story made it clear that Rin(and Shirou at times) being aggressive to her,even when Sakura told them to run away, the more did Sakura focus in her dark feelings. But when Rin drops teh col act, Sakura is even able to resist AM. This isnt about a normal, sane person knowing they are wrong. Because she is? Being a spoilt brat doesn't necessarily mean by choice. She was under AM's influence and she barely had any sanity left, but all of this doesn't make me feel much towards her. If an insane person killed someone you love, would you be able to stop yourself from hating him, even if you understood and even sympathized with his condition? An insanity plea for Sakura would definitely hold up in court (would love to see that trial lol), but would it really matter to the feelings of the victim's loved ones? That's how i felt towards Sakura in "Femme Fatale". She went too far for me to have the emotional capacity to let what she did, whatever the reason was, just go. There is big difference between hating them for what they ended up doing and reducing them(someone in Sakura's position)to spoiled brats. I am sure Shirou didnt forgive her.But I dont think he reduced her to..em..Shinji. I hated what she ended up doing as well. |
ssjokgApr 3, 2016 10:18 AM
astroprogs said: That's exactly what makes Sakura a spoilt brat in those scenes. Spoiled brat? Sakura? By whom? If anything that's Rin who takes everything she has for a given no matter how Nasu tries to wank her 'harsh upbringing'. Sorry for insulting your favorite, I know she works hard to get where she is while Sakura mostly just sits and waits for everything to fall on her but you can't take away the fact that Rin is lucky and she takes her luck in life for granted. Sakura can easily turn into spoiled brat as you say because of her greed for affection but I don't think it was really a scene where it applies. Like I said, Rin provoked her Sakura choose to answer to her provocation. Both are at fault. It was caused by misunderstanding. astroprogs said: Rin never expressed joy in harming Sakura, yet Sakura was almost orgasming in "Femme Fatale". Sakura is like that by nature. Rin is not. Which is why Rin would likely die or be full-on Zokuens obedient puppet unlike Sakura who told him off. Because she's a good natured person at heart unlike Sakura. astroprogs said: This whole thing became much bigger than Sakura and her suffering, regardless of how awful it was, but once she became drunk with power, she became an ouright villian who doesn't want to take responsibility for her actions. She was still holding back at the time. In Femme Fatale however you are right. astroprogs said: Rin's apathy was harsh and cruel, but, considering what's at stake, it's not like i can't completely see why she acted this way. You chose to see situation from her view point but you absolutely refuse to see it from Sakura's. If Rin didn't act like that in the first place Sakura would hold herself back(yes, I understand that Rin has every right to doubt). Then... what you are doing is excusing your favorite just the same as those who say that Sakura wasn't responsible because AM. In short: you are no different from Sakurafags that excuse her actions. I see that Femme Fatale made you hate her because she killed you favorite and it personally offended you. Much like Saberfags are mad about Saber and Illyafags that her route was cut in favor of, again, Sakura. I got it. It's okay to hate a character for such reason. That's absolutely normal. When, like you say, 'an insane person killed someone you love, would you be able to stop yourself from hating him', you have all rights to hate her and never think of the reasons. But hate only spreads hate, you know? |
ssjokg said: There is big difference between hating them for what they ended up doing and reducing them(someone in Sakura's position)to spoiled brats. I am sure Shirou didnt forgive her.But I dont think he reduced to..em..Shinji. I hated what she ended up doing as well. For the bolded, i didn't, though: astroprogs said: That's exactly what makes Sakura a spoilt brat in those scenes. I'm not saying Sakura is a bad character (check out my posts in the "How would you pace the film(s)?" thread), and I know how Sakura felt thorought the route and i feel like her character is a good and complex one. And i still don't like her in "Femme Fatale". There's a difference between "understanding" and "accepting". |
| >And i still don't like her in "Femme Fatale". I dont think anyone does. I am only saying that that end didnt happen because Sakura was just spoiled. |
 Rejoice, Fate fandom |
I am the Priest of my church Yuetsu is my body, and wine is my blood I have trolled over a thousand users Unknown to sympathy, nor known to apathy Withstood Shirou to eat Mapo Tofu Yet, my question will never be answered So as I rejoice, Unlimited Kirei Works! |
| Also, let's not forget that at the end of Day 13 Sakura was ready and accepted to die by Shirou's Hands. And i would've gladly accepted her death at that momment. |
Wolfran said: Spoiled brat? Sakura? By whom? If anything that's Rin who takes everything she has for a given no matter how Nasu tries to wank her 'harsh upbringing'. Sorry for insulting your favorite, I know she works hard to get where she is while Sakura mostly just sits and waits for everything to fall on her but you can't take away the fact that Rin is lucky and she takes her luck in life for granted. Sakura can easily turn into spoiled brat as you say because of her greed for affection but I don't think it was really a scene where it applies. Like I said, Rin provoked her Sakura choose to answer to her provocation. Both are at fault. It was caused by misunderstanding. I addressed that point in my post. I'm saying that when the freaking world is in danger, who the hell cares about your personal issues, regardless of how bad they were? And that's not even going into how sadistic she became Her thoughts towards Rin are understandable, but her actions in these circumstances aren't. Sakura wasn't sane there, so let's not try rationalizing her thoughts and actions. Wolfran said: Sakura is like that by nature. Rin is not. Which is why Rin would likely die or be full-on Zokuens obedient puppet unlike Sakura who told him off. Because she's a good natured person at heart unlike Sakura. Ummm, wut? Sakura was able to sustain her mental health, mostly, by the virtue of being a strong person, not a sadist. Both sisters are known to be very strong mentally. Wolfran said: astroprogs said: Rin's apathy was harsh and cruel, but, considering what's at stake, it's not like i can't completely see why she acted this way. You chose to see situation from her view point but you absolutely refuse to see it from Sakura's. If Rin didn't act like that in the first place Sakura would hold herself back(yes, I understand that Rin has every right to doubt). Then... what you are doing is excusing your favorite just the same as those who say that Sakura wasn't responsible because AM. In short: you are no different from Sakurafags that excuse her actions. I see that Femme Fatale made you hate her because she killed you favorite and it personally offended you. Much like Saberfags are mad about Saber and Illyafags that her route was cut in favor of, again, Sakura. I got it. It's okay to hate a character for such reason. That's absolutely normal. When, like you say, 'an insane person killed someone you love, would you be able to stop yourself from hating him', you have all rights to hate her and never think of the reasons. But hate only spreads hate, you know? There's nothing to see from Sakura's POV. Her negative thoughts were shown to us very clearly in her first interlude with Zouken in the worm room very early on. It's not that i don't understand her feelings, it's that her reacting on them isn't something i need to rationalize. She wasn't exactly the symbol of mental health there. Hahaha, but i never hid that. I don't hate Sakura in general, i actually really like her in HA, 3rei and the majority of HF itself. I never claimed that i don't like her because she's a bad character or anything. ssjokg said: >And i still don't like her in "Femme Fatale". I dont think anyone does. I am only saying that that end didnt happen because Sakura was just spoiled. Maybe that was the wrong expression on my part. We're in agreement, as i understand. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 10:42 AM
astroprogs said: I addressed that point in my post. I'm saying that when the freaking world is in danger, who the hell cares about your personal issues, regardless of how bad they were? And that's not even going into how sadistic she became You sound very similar to what I was saying while UBW was airing. Yes yes, Sakura didn't act the way most of us would've expected, but it's a meaningless thing to dwell on. She was a scared emotional wreck that didn't know what to do. You can't expect her to make smartest choices in that condition. |
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astroprogs said: I addressed that point in my post. I'm saying that when the freaking world is in danger, who the hell cares about your personal issues, regardless of how bad they were? Eh, Sakura's "world" isn't really that big. In fact it could be partitioned to school, her Senpai's house, and the worm pit. Given her insanity and the taint of AM, it isn't really suprising that two out of three goes straight to the gutter. |
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Mickdrew said: astroprogs said: I addressed that point in my post. I'm saying that when the freaking world is in danger, who the hell cares about your personal issues, regardless of how bad they were? And that's not even going into how sadistic she became You sound very similar to what I was saying while UBW was airing. Yes yes, Sakura didn't act the way most of us would've expected, but it's a meaningless thing to dwell on. She was a scared emotional wreck that didn't know what to do. You can't expect her to make smartest choices in that condition. Yup. Pretty much. |
| @ssjokg 'Do you really call people criminals because they arent willing to die?' When you know that you have to kill someone in order to survive yourself? Yes, absolutely. Regardless the reason, murder is murder. It doesn't have to be some magical justice system or karma but dismissing the fact that you took a life in order to survive is a sin. 'Face it, not everyone has the same preference.I dont care about Rin.Does that make her a bad character?' I wasn't talking about preference. It's about people excusing those they like and push responsibility for their character's actions on someone else by saying 'but those characters are worser people; my favorite did nothing wrong' or 'they started first, it's their fault', 'Sakura is sinless poor girl, it was all AM', 'Rin did everything she could because she had to, I can understand her' etc. At least no one is excusing Kirei, Shinji or Zokuen. @ssjokg 'I dont think anyone does.' I liked and enjoyed it plenty. It was a great harem ending. Much more original than the ones we usually see. @astroprogs 'I addressed that point in my post. I'm saying that when the freaking world is in danger, who the hell cares about your personal issues, regardless of how bad they were? And that's not even going into how sadistic she became' Who cares if the world is in danger? 'but her actions in these circumstances aren't' They are more than understandable. Her actions are inexcusable and punishable but it can be understood. 'Ummm, wut? Sakura was able to sustain her mental health, mostly, by the virtue of being a strong person, not a sadist. Both sisters are known to be very strong mentally.' That's not what I meant. Both Kirei and Zokuen said that he made a mistake in picking Sakura as Rin wouldn't eventually be like 'grandpa though I wouldn't last long, but it was he who didn't'. Rin probably wouldn't survive what Sakura did too. At least mentally. While Sakura lived and told him off like that: http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20370/ |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 11:29 AM
Decent and sane human beings? Wolfran said: 'but her actions in these circumstances aren't' They are more than understandable. Her actions are inexcusable and punishable but it can be understood. They're understandable if you incorporate the fact that she was kind of insane ATM, because if a sane person threw a tantrum and enjoyed murder like this, then they're 100% not understandable and 100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible Wolfran said: 'Ummm, wut? Sakura was able to sustain her mental health, mostly, by the virtue of being a strong person, not a sadist. Both sisters are known to be very strong mentally.' That's not what I meant. Both Kirei and Zokuen said that he made a mistake in picking Sakura as Rin wouldn't eventually be like 'grandpa though I wouldn't last long, but it was he who didn't'. Rin probably wouldn't survive what Sakura did too. At least mentally. While Sakura lived and told him off like that: http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20370/ Again, wut? Zouken commented many times that Sakura's strength surprised him, but neither he, nor Kirei, said anything to compare that aspect to Rin. What are you basing Rin being weaker mentally than Sakura on exactly? There isn't a single scene in the VN that supports this line of thought. |
| @astroprogs 'Decent and sane human beings?' Decent and sane people don't even think about that and focus on their life. 'because if a sane person threw a tantrum and enjoyed murder like this, then they're 100% not understandable and 100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible' Who decided that? 'Again, wut? Zouken commented many times that Sakura's strength surprised him, but neither he, nor Kirei, said anything to compare that aspect to Rin. What are you basing Rin being weaker mentally than Sakura on exactly? There isn't a single scene in the VN that supports this line of thought.' Does this count? Rin overall is mentally weaker comparing to Sakura but this is her strength as well. Unlike Sakura she works on herself and pushes herself every day. Her strength is in things like that. Meanwhile, like I said, Sakura doesn't even bother most of the time unless you give her a good motivation. There is a good reason why Zokuen was like 'I should have picked the older sister'. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 12:01 PM
Wolfran said: @astroprogs 'Decent and sane human beings?' Decent and sane people don't even think about that and focus on their life. They do if a situation, like the obe we're discussing, forced them to. Wolfran said: 'because if a sane person threw a tantrum and enjoyed murder like this, then they're 100% not understandable and 100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible' Who decided that? Are we seriously discussing this? You know what, you're right? Who are we to judge murderers? We should stop endorsing the legal system. Who decided they can judge those who enjoy murder and have a hand in literally killing all of humanity. Come on, man. Wolfran said: 'Again, wut? Zouken commented many times that Sakura's strength surprised him, but neither he, nor Kirei, said anything to compare that aspect to Rin. What are you basing Rin being weaker mentally than Sakura on exactly? There isn't a single scene in the VN that supports this line of thought.' Does this count? Rin overall is mentally weaker comparing to Sakura but this is her strength as well. Unlike Sakura she works on herself and pushes herself every day. Her strength is in things like that. Meanwhile, like I said, Sakura doesn't even bother most of the time unless you give her a good motivation. This doesn't say that Sakura is stronger, it just says that she's more suitable for the curse as she's more prone to negative thoughts. And of course every human being would hesitate if they were asked whether they could withstand being violated by worms. Actually attempting the thing is an entirely different matter. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 12:09 PM
| Oooh HF .Cool . @Astroprogs What's the matter fam .You don't like Sakura ? |
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| @astroprogs They do if a situation, like the obe we're discussing, forced them to. People usually think of themselves and those who are close to them first. 'Are we seriously discussing this?' Yes, because lines like '100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible' are not normal either, you know? It can be said that they have to be killed as they are harmful to majority. But what you said is no better than, say, Sakura's own thinking process you hate so much. 'This doesn't say that Sakura is stronger, it just says that...' Sure, which is why they pointed out that her edginess was what betrayed Zokuen and with Rin he would have succeeded. Whatever you say. |
WolfranApr 4, 2016 12:57 AM
| God help us all if astro gets possessed by AM. |
Stev said: ayy lmao |
| To be honest, I'm more annoyed over Shirou's decision to abandon his ideals than Sakura's attitude. Say what you want about how much she meant to him or what a horrible dilemma it is, the fact remain that we endured 40 hours of naval gazing over how justified he is in putting others before himself, just for him to give his ideals up when they are the most justified. |
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HungryPriest said: God help us all if astro gets possessed by AM. Everyone who isn't a Rinfag will be punished for sure. |
Mickdrew said: To be honest, I'm more annoyed over Shirou's decision to abandon his ideals than Sakura's attitude. Say what you want about how much she meant to him or what a horrible dilemma it is, the fact remain that we endured 40 hours of naval gazing over how justified he is in putting others before himself, just for him to give his ideals up when they are the most justified. Except he didn't. He modified it. And for the first time started to act more like a normal human rather than a walking superhero stereotype. Also that last part makes no sense at all. His (original) ideals, by definition, were broken the moment he was forced to prioritize A or B. Which was the whole point of the route: the conflict between the ideal and the reality. |
Stev said: ayy lmao |
I do actually like Sakura. Wolfran said: @astroprogs They do if a situation, like the obe we're discussing, forced them to. People usually think of themselves and those who are close to them first. That's not contradictory to what i said. A sane Sakura would benifit more from not killing every single human on earth. Wolfran said: 'Are we seriously discussing this?' Yes, because lines like '100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible' are not normal either, you know? It can be said that they have to be killed as they are harmful to majority. But what you said is no better than, say, Sakura's own thinking process you hate so much. Ummm, did you mess this part: astroprogs said: They're understandable if you incorporate the fact that she was kind of insane ATM, because if a sane person threw a tantrum and enjoyed murder like this, then they're 100% not understandable and 100% deserve to die in the most horrible way possible My thought process is that if Sakura was sane, and she wasn't at the time, and she wanted to kill everyone, then she more than deserved to be punished as a mass murderer. Sakura's thought process is "everything was horrible to me, therefore i must kill everyone. I'm the strongest, so i can't be wrong." So, no, my thinking process isn't a bad one, as it's the thinking process of anti-felony law makers themselves, let alone being close to Sakura's. Wolfran said: HungryPriest said: God help us all if astro gets possessed by AM. Everyone who isn't a Rinfag will be punished for sure. I-I won't do that......... |
Mickdrew said: To be honest, I'm more annoyed over Shirou's decision to abandon his ideals than Sakura's attitude. Say what you want about how much she meant to him or what a horrible dilemma it is, the fact remain that we endured 40 hours of naval gazing over how justified he is in putting others before himself, just for him to give his ideals up when they are the most justified. Tbh Mickkun, it's better then watching him superheroing stuff for the 3rd time :p |
HungryPriest said: Except he didn't. He modified it. And for the first time started to act more like a normal human rather than a walking superhero stereotype. Also that last part makes no sense at all. His (original) ideals, by definition, were broken the moment he was forced to prioritize A or B. Which was the whole point of the route: the conflict between the ideal and the reality. There was no conflict between ideals and reality when he was making the decision to kill Sakura or not. For all we've heard in the previous routes about his ideals not being realistic, the decision to save the townspeople was the most pragmatic option at that moment. |
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HungryPriest said: God help us all if astro gets possessed by AM. Oh, come on. I'll be a darling. BTW, Hungry... I remember that you posted a Rin art i didn't like the coloring of about a year ago. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 12:56 PM
Mickdrew said: HungryPriest said: Except he didn't. He modified it. And for the first time started to act more like a normal human rather than a walking superhero stereotype. Also that last part makes no sense at all. His (original) ideals, by definition, were broken the moment he was forced to prioritize A or B. Which was the whole point of the route: the conflict between the ideal and the reality. There was no conflict between ideals and reality when he was making the decision to kill Sakura or not. For all we've heard in the previous routes about his ideals not being realistic, the decision to save the townspeople was the most pragmatic option at that moment. (i am assuming you are talking about Day 9) So he should've become Kerry Jr.? Why should he kill his loved one for a chance that she may kill people? |
Mickdrew said: To be honest, I'm more annoyed over Shirou's decision to abandon his ideals than Sakura's attitude. Say what you want about how much she meant to him or what a horrible dilemma it is, the fact remain that we endured 40 hours of naval gazing over how justified he is in putting others before himself, just for him to give his ideals up when they are the most justified. We endure hours upon hours of his deliberation only to finally have him throw everything away for the sake of one girl that we(read : I) don't even like .That's basically saying that UBW's answer was worth shit . HungryPriest said: Except he didn't. He modified it. And for the first time started to act more like a normal human rather than a walking superhero stereotype. Also that last part makes no sense at all. His (original) ideals, by definition, were broken the moment he was forced to prioritize A or B. Which was the whole point of the route: the conflict between the ideal and the reality. The point of HF isn't that though .It's weighing ideals in relation to the smiles of the people around you .UBW already states that reality itself is not important to the worth of an ideal .The message of HF is basically that being a hero for those you care about ,is more important than being a hero to the masses .It's psychologically healthier . |
OduduwaApr 3, 2016 1:04 PM
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| @astroprogs 'So, no, my thinking process isn't a bad one, as it's the thinking process of felony-law makers themselves, let alone being close to Sakura's.' Did you pay attention to what you said yourself? It doesn't matter what Sakura did or would do, it's a matter of your word choice. You literally said 'if they are bad then they deserve to die in the most horrible way possible'. For Sakura those people are also bad, so in her eyes they deserve to die a horrible death. How are you different? If you said 'they have to be killed fast as they are dangerous to society' it would be the normal way to reply. But you insisted on 'they are bad so the should die horribly'. You think that you are somehow better than her after this? You are letting your negative feelings affect your reasoning. It's similar to logic of bullies. As their victims 'deserve this kind of treatment' Which is why I asked. Who decided such thing? Not that they are 'dangerous and should be killed to prevent a disaster' but that they 'deserve to have the worst death ever'. Are you really going to defend this and say 'but it's okay because the person in question is bad'? That's just the same as those people who made Avenger into a man-made demon. He also was 'bad' so he 'deserved' that kind of treatment, right? 'I-I won't do that.........' Just wait a bit and you will descent into the darkness, latent Sakura :) |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 1:14 PM
Mickdrew said: HungryPriest said: Except he didn't. He modified it. And for the first time started to act more like a normal human rather than a walking superhero stereotype. Also that last part makes no sense at all. His (original) ideals, by definition, were broken the moment he was forced to prioritize A or B. Which was the whole point of the route: the conflict between the ideal and the reality. There was no conflict between ideals and reality when he was making the decision to kill Sakura or not. For all we've heard in the previous routes about his ideals not being realistic, the decision to save the townspeople was the most pragmatic option at that moment. Are you saying Nasu was wrong? astroprogs said: My thought process is that if Sakura was sane, and she wasn't at the time, and she wanted to kill everyone, then she more than deserved to be punished as a mass murderer. There's a bit of a difference between merely punishing a mass murderer and having him die "in the most horrible way possible" which I believe was his point. Such train of thoughts is exactly what AM would latch on to and turn a normal person into an absolute monster, like what we saw happened in HF, hence the AM joke I made later, implying you'd turn into dark Sakura. astroprogs said: HungryPriest said: God help us all if astro gets possessed by AM. Oh, come on. I'll be a darling. BTW, Hungry... I remember that you posted a Rin art i didn't like the coloring of about a year ago. Me, posting Rin art? I'd have to be drunk. :P |
Stev said: ayy lmao |
Shrimperor said: (i am assuming you are talking about Day 9) So he should've become Kerry Jr.? Why should he kill his loved one for a chance that she may kill people? Maybe we could get an extended monologue where Shirou recognizes that killings will likely continue unless he intervenes. And he realizes that however much he might love Sakura and wish to keep her alive, all those innocent townspeople probably have loved ones that feel the exact same way towards them. Even if he doesn't want to follow Kerry's philosophy, empathy alone should make him understand how much suffering he's causing to people's loved ones - to say nothing of the suffering the people being killed themselves are experiencing. |
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Wolfran said: @astroprogs 'So, no, my thinking process isn't a bad one, as it's the thinking process of felony-law makers themselves, let alone being close to Sakura's.' Did you pay attention to what you said yourself? It doesn't matter what Sakura did or would do, it's a matter of your word choice. You literally said 'if they are bad then they deserve to die in the most horrible way possible'. For Sakura those people are also bad, so in her eyes they deserve to die a horrible death. How are you different? If you said 'they have to be killed fast as they are dangerous to society' it would be the normal way to reply. But you insisted on 'they are bad so the should die horribly'. You think that you are somehow better than her after this? You are letting your negative feelings affect your reasoning. It's similar to logic of bullies. As their victims 'deserve this kind of treatment' Which is why I asked. Who decided such thing? You? Not that they are 'dangerous and should be killed to prevent a disaster' but that they 'deserve to have the worst death ever'. Are you really going to defend this and say that it's okay because the person in question is bad? That's just the same as those people who made Avenger into a man made demon. He also was 'bad' so he 'deserved' that kind of treatment, right? I'm starting to think that you're not really reading my posts. Please, go back and give them another read. I'm talking about her mental state while flaunting her desire and determination to kill thousands, if not millions of people. That's what determines how Sakura should be judged. If she was insane (under AM's influence), then she can be excused and maybe even forgiven for her doings (as stated by common sense and pretty much every law). If she was completely conscious and sane, and still opted to be a mass murderer, then it's not cruel or "bullying" if she is to be punished. Her own rationalizations and reasons doesn't matter by this point. |
Mickdrew said: Shrimperor said: (i am assuming you are talking about Day 9) So he should've become Kerry Jr.? Why should he kill his loved one for a chance that she may kill people? Maybe we could get an extended monologue where Shirou recognizes that killings will likely continue unless he intervenes. The thing is, by day 9 they didn't know Sakura was the Shadow yet. They only knew that she may snap and order Rider to kill people for mana because worms. And later on, in day 13, he acknowledges that he will let people die for Sakura http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20350/10-HF13-11a-15.jpg |
| @Shrimperor Fair enough But that only takes the edge off my issue with his logic. As for that line from the VN, it just strengthens my point that he's not being empathetic enough to what other people would go through. Imagine if someone else acted in a way to kill Sakura. Shirou would be devastated. Now imagine Shirou doing that to an entire town and not caring. |
MickdrewApr 3, 2016 1:20 PM
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| @astroprogs 'I'm starting to think that you're not really reading my posts. Please, go back and give them another read.' Same thing for you. For how much you bash Sakura you surely have a similar mindset. Normally she also likes to 'punish people' if they are bad and while under AM this part of her is just taken further. How are you different, again? You are a very dangerous member of society in potential future, especially to those who aren't Rinfags :) 'then it's not cruel or "bullying" if she is to be punished' Well, punishing Avenger wasn't cruel or bullying in those people's eyes either, you know. Because he was bad and evil, threatened them and all of that. |
HungryPriest said: There's a bit of a difference between merely punishing a mass murderer and having him die "in the most horrible way possible" which I believe was his point. Such train of thoughts is exactly what AM would latch on to and turn a normal person into an absolute monster, like what we saw happened in HF, hence the AM joke I made later, implying you'd turn into dark Sakura. You don't think someone who killed father, mothers, sons, daughters, lovers, wifes and friends should be punished accordingly? I was never of favor of killing Sakura because she obviously wasn't in control of her emotions, and her oppressed negative side has been amplified multiple times. The scenario above is only applicable to those who consciously choose to be mass murderers, not a case like Sakura. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 2:02 PM
Mickdrew said: @Shrimperor Fair enough But that only takes the edge off my issue with his logic. As for that line from the VN, it just strengthens my point that he's not being empathetic enough to what other people would go through. Imagine if someone else acted in a way to kill Sakura. Shirou would be devastated. Now imagine Shirou doing that to an entire town and not caring. He accepts that he's selfish and despicable though .I don't think he felt only a little bit of empathy .In the final fight with Kotomine he claimed that neither of their wishes held more weight .He did not see himself as particularly righteous . |
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Mickdrew said: @Shrimperor Fair enough But that only takes the edge off my issue with his logic. As for that line from the VN, it just strengthens my point that he's not being empathetic enough to what other people would go through. Imagine if someone else acted in a way to kill Sakura. Shirou would be devastated. Now imagine Shirou doing that to an entire town and not caring. him monoluging and thinking about it, and even going as close as to hold a knife over Sakura say otherwise, Mickkun. |
Wolfran said: @astroprogs 'I'm starting to think that you're not really reading my posts. Please, go back and give them another read.' Same thing for you. For how much you bash Sakura you surely have a similar mindset. Normally she also likes to 'punish people' if they are bad and while under AM this part of her is just taken further. How are you different, again? You are a very dangerous member of society in potential future, especially to those who aren't Rinfags :) 'then it's not cruel or "bullying" if she is to be punished' Well, punishing Avenger wasn't cruel or bullying in those people's eyes either, you know. Because he was bad and evil, threatened them and all of that. First, i'm not talking about 'punishing people', i'm talking about murdring people. Seconds. Third, in my corrupted form, i would do horrible things to Saber fans and i don't really have a big problem with them. Think carefully about what i would do to Sakura fans >:D |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 1:28 PM
| @astroprogs You don't think someone who killed father, mothers, sons, daughters, lovers, wifes and friends should be punished accordingly? Wow. You seriously don't see anything wrong in this mindset? The scenario above is only applicable to those who consciously choose to be mass murderers, not a case like Sakura. So you select those who are applicable and those who are not? This is scary... |
astroprogs said: HungryPriest said: There's a bit of a difference between merely punishing a mass murderer and having him die "in the most horrible way possible" which I believe was his point. Such train of thoughts is exactly what AM would latch on to and turn a normal person into an absolute monster, like what we saw happened in HF, hence the AM joke I made later, implying you'd turn into dark Sakura. You don't think someone who killed father, mothers, sons, daughters, lovers, wifes and friends should be punished accordingly? I was never of favor of killing Sakura because she obviously wasn't in control of her emotions, and her oppressed negative side has been amplified multiple times. The scenario above is only applicable to those who [i]consciously choose[/b] to be mass murderers, not a case like Sakura. Yes, punish. No, I don't think they would have to be killed in the most horrible way possible. Can you even imagine what that would be like? I wouldn't wish that even to my most hated enemy. Try googling scaphism. |
Stev said: ayy lmao |
| @astroprogs 'First, i'm not talking about 'punishing people', i'm talking about murdring people.' Do you understand the fact that it doesn't matter? It's your mindset that decides who should be 'punished' and' for what' is what's scary. You mean that all of those people who are insane not by their choice and suffer from it already should be tortured and killed in the worst way possible if someone close to you gets hurt or killed by their hand? How is this different from Sakura's mindset? Please, tell me. |
HungryPriest said: astroprogs said: You don't think someone who killed father, mothers, sons, daughters, lovers, wifes and friends should be punished accordingly? I was never of favor of killing Sakura because she obviously wasn't in control of her emotions, and her oppressed negative side has been amplified multiple times. The scenario above is only applicable to those who [i]consciously choose[/b] to be mass murderers, not a case like Sakura. Yes, punish. No, I don't think they would have to be killed in the most horrible way possible. Can you even imagine what that would be like? I wouldn't wish that even to my most hated enemy. Try googling scaphism. "Killed in the most horrible way possible" was a hyperbole to make a point. And, no i wont google scaphism. My instinct tells me that i shouldn't, and i reckon it knows something :p Wolfran said: @astroprogs 'First, i'm not talking about 'punishing people', i'm talking about murdring people.' Do you understand the fact that it doesn't matter? It's your mindset that decides who should be 'punished' and' for what' is what's scary. You mean that all of those people who are insane not by their choice and suffer from it already should be tortured and killed in the worst way possible if someone close to you gets hurt or killed by their hand? How is this different from Sakura's mindset? Please, tell me. I did. Propably a million times by this point. No, they shouldn't be punished because they're insane. You have to be doing this on purpose by now. |
astroprogsApr 3, 2016 1:36 PM
astroprogs said: "Killed in the most horrible way possible was a hyperbole to make a point." Sure. Nice backtrack but we already saw through you :) Today it's just a punishment of 'someone' that horribly killed your family and tomorrow you are already killing 'in the worst way possible' those who have nothing to do with it. A way to go, Sakura. astroprogs said: No, they shouldn't be punished because they're insane. And if they aren't they should be killed the worst way possible? astroprogs said: You have to be doing this on purpose by now. No, I think everyone already understood that they have to at least pretend to like Rin to survive the HF movies. |
WolfranApr 4, 2016 12:58 AM
 So, that was fun. Wolfran said: No, I think everyone already understood that they have to at least pretend to like Rin to survive the HF movies. I don't even need to be possessed by AM for you to do that. |
| We are well on our way to seeing Angra Mainyu reborn here. You seem like possible vessel, Astroprogs. |
I am the Priest of my church Yuetsu is my body, and wine is my blood I have trolled over a thousand users Unknown to sympathy, nor known to apathy Withstood Shirou to eat Mapo Tofu Yet, my question will never be answered So as I rejoice, Unlimited Kirei Works! |
SuperKirei said: We are well on our way to seeing Angra Mainyu reborn here. You seem like possible vessel, Astroprogs. What are you on about Kirei? Thinking about murdering every man/woman/child/animal/plant that doesn't share my affection for Rin is a completely normal urge to have, right? Also, sorry about cutting this off, but let's stop. I wouldn't want another general discussion thread to be locked. |
| Well astroprogs vs Wolfran didnt go THAT well. >When you know that you have to kill someone in order to survive yourself? Yes, absolutely. Regardless the reason, murder is murder. It doesn't have to be some magical justice system or karma but dismissing the fact that you took a life in order to survive is a sin. That doesnt make any sense.IF it is killed or be killed, and the others are TOTAL strangers, you dont have to be a coward in order to chose your own survival. There is no sane person that would do that. >I wasn't talking about preference.... Oh can excuse everyone [b]IF[b] I want to. Zouken:A Kiritsugu that turned REALLY bad because of magecraft that break the soul. Kirei:A man that hated himself for not being empty but when he finally found something, he hated himself cause it was something he learned to be evil.Even without Gil, one day he would break. Shinji: Gullible retard. Yeah that was the best I could do with him. Sorry but I can accept people blaming her for not being strong enough to resist Zouken's new scheme but calling her a sinner because she was afraid to die is ridiculous. |
astroprogs said: Also, sorry about cutting this off, but let's stop. I wouldn't want another general discussion thread to be locked. Sorry, this will be the last one. But it's still pretty thematic, isn't it? Anyway, I can't be the only one who is waiting HF to see scenes like this this animated? It was shocking and fun the first time I read it. I think Sudou can even pull it off if he tries. Sounds awesome. I hope they won't cut it. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 2:29 PM
| I can live without those. I dont mind monologues, but only ones that make sense for all. |
ssjokg said: Well astroprogs vs Wolfran didnt go THAT well. I agree. It ceased just as it was beginning to bear some semblance of worth. |
   |
ssjokg said: That doesnt make any sense.IF it is killed or be killed, and the others are TOTAL strangers, you dont have to be a coward in order to chose your own survival. There is no sane person that would do that. You mean that if you have to choose between yourself and a few/one/doesn't matter people and you choose yourself then their lives might as well be garbage? You took lives of other people, who are no better or worse than you, and you should just forget that and pretend it never happened? Or excuse it that 'you had no other choice'? People usually always have a choice and when they pick one they try to justify it but in this case you should at least reflect on the fact that you took lives in order to survive instead of being like 'i did nothing wrong in my life, I can't be wrong'. ssjokg said: but calling her a sinner because she was afraid to die is ridiculous. 'dismissing the fact that you took a life in order to survive is a sin' 'Regardless the reason, murder is murder' She was trying to take throw away her responsibility for taking lives. Like astroprogs was saying: Sakura's thought process is "everything was horrible to me, therefore i must kill everyone. I'm the strongest, so i can't be wrong." Same as Fujino originally did. Shiki was mad exactly because Fujino was treating lives of other as a worthless toy. ssjokg said: I can live without those. I dont mind monologues, but only ones that make sense for all. I don't mean it as a monologue but as a visual experience. Like show us how Shirou takes out a gun and suddenly shots himself with blood all over the wall after what 'bam' and he was only imagining it. |
WolfranApr 3, 2016 2:46 PM
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