Best Fate/ anime

mira-nyan said:
Lol, dem text walls.

LitzSabr said:
There wasn't anything that kayneth and tokiomi really did stupid as far as the battle went. Saber's hand was cursed, she had an einzbern homunculus as her master and an assassin as found later, literally the best opportunity to take down the saber class servant, I don't see how anyone can let a chance like this slip. Tokiomi was just being cautious, he himself wasn't fully aware of his servant's capabilities and a clear example of this is rin/archer. Even if kerry was Gil's master he wouldn't have had gilgamesh go ham then and there on the servants.

All that and bazzet still got done in by kirei, the strongest mage kayneth was bodied by kiritsugu. Ah well, I was comparing a teen kiritsugu to fsn rin, whatever she would become in the future, it's high chance that she would be above kiritsugu. But doesn't matter much again if we consider F/Z kerry and even then remember that the kiritsugu in Fate/Zero wasn't in his prime and was rusty, he was in his prime 9 years prior when he had nothing to lose and was the perfect mage killer. Remember how kerry was afraid of facing kirei, it was mentioned in the novel that if it were prime kiritsugu he would've dealt with this situation without even raising an eyebrow. He didn't have avalon back then but for kiritsugu it's more about the mindset and strategies than fighting an opponent head on. Though whatever the case is, I don't think that Kerry is necessary.

Lancer=/=her people and saber's mistake After her death are mostly related to her wish to save her country. And ofcourse I am taking her judgement seriously, she and lancer were very open to each other throughout the war and knew each other. Kerry couldn't have done anything against lancer but the thing is that he never really had to.

Actually no, he did got shot by an origin bullet before and that time it was made clear that can't do anything against it if it hits him. Bringing an arm or hand in front of the head would've done really nothing. And with Kirei dead rest remains with kiritsugu. And kirei rushing in there is natural, why would he want his opponent to load his one weapon which can kill him. I personally find it hard for the black keys to kill him or destroye his brain enough for avalon to not take effect.

astroprogs said:

Join in, it's fun. Here, let me help you. Saber is a weak sauce futa robot who had it all coming. Sakura is bestest girl compared to her.

Interested yet? :p

mira-nyan said:


Nah. I'm immune to those now. Tho, about your joke.

She wasn't a robot, apparently. -points at GoA- She, like, smirked whilst killing giant-magic-island-dragon-kun.
Yes, she is weak sauce. ~.~

Weak sauce that had(s) a TYPE killing weapon and the lynchpin of the AoM, bitch!

astroprogs said:

I like how you said you're immune then proceeded to show how not-immune you are :p

And about the smirk, well, those ancient robots are bound to malfunction at one point or another.

astroprogs said:

I like how you said you're immune then proceeded to show how not-immune you are :p

And about the smirk, well, those ancient robots are bound to malfunction at one point or another.

mira-nyan said:
No, I was correcting your joke.


Then again, there are robots that can smirk. She's just a super highclass robot. :^)

astroprogs said:
Kayneth delved into the Einzbern castle without knowing anything about the opponent or her powers. I mean, the opponent blew up the hotel you were in, doing the same for the castle after luring you in never crossed your mind? Yeah, Kayneth is pretty dumb.
Tokiomi was completely aware of what Gil can do, evident by his talk with Kirei before the summoning and how the war will be a walk in the park if he succeeded in summoning the strongest servant. This is evident again by Tokiomi knowing about Ea and urging Gil to use it to eliminate Caster. Tokiomi was a coward. F/SN Archer feigned amnesia and there was no way for Rin to know his true identity because there was no catalyst (for all she knew), which is the complete opposite of Tokiomi and Gil's circumstances.
"Even if kerry was Gil's master he wouldn't have had gilgamesh go ham then and there on the servants." Yes, he would've. Not only would Gil's power acquire him an early landslide victory, it's what Gil himself wanted to do. Tokiomi, being the stupid coward he is, denied himself the victory and put a huge dent in his relationship with Gil.

The kind of information Bazett can get on Kirei wouldn't have made her realize the backstabbing villain that he is. Everything he did till the point he met Bazett was in line with the Church's usual behavior. So yeah, you know Kirei is a special case when he raises someone for 10 years without them knowing his true self.
Even comparing teen Kerry with teen Rin would propbly have teen Rin coming out on top. You gotta remember that Natalia was pulling Kerry's weight most of the time, while Rin was in a HGW in the same age and we know how she dealt then. The one thing Kerry has over Rin is his indifference to killing. That may actually bring down her defeat depending on the circumstances.
And well, comparing the characters while they're more similar in age is more fair, as, of course, F/Z Kerry would decimate F/SN Rin, while Rin is more likely to win against a similarly aged Kerry in each phase of their lives.

By that same logic, Rin and Archer couldn't have done anything against Lancer but the thing is that they never really had to. You're factoring in something they both had no control over. Saber gambling on Lancer's morality was never in Kerry's plan, neither was Shirou's stay in school a part of Rin's. They both got lucky.
I'll rephrase it so it becomes even more clear: Whatever Saber did, does and will do was never a factor in Kerry's plans as long as she played her part as the distraction. Lancer sparing Kerry was an incredible stroke of luck as far as Kerry is concerned.
And about Saber's judgment, i guess it depends on how you look at it. I'd trust Saber, but not who she trusts.

Kirei can deal with the bullet the exact way he dealt the last one; use the arm as a shield to divert the bullet and a CS to nullify the effect. I honestly can't see Kirei being done in by that bullet when he survived the one he didn't even know was coming and what it entails. Kirei conjectured that crushing Kerry's head would be sufficient to kill him, and he is completely correct in that assumption, so the fight would've ended then and there.

LitzSabr said:

Blowing up a hotel and your own stronghold are two completely different. That castle and the forest was under einbern's party control and blowing it up on your own in the war would appear dumb to anyone. Even kirei went for Kerry there, whats Kayneth.
If it was kiritsugu he would've been pulling the strings not gilgamesh, I don't think he would care who his servant was. And Tokiomi was right, he was evaluating each servant's abilities before eliminating them once and for all. Who is to say that there wouldn't be a servant who could pose trouble for Gil or what kind of strategy one might use to defeat gilgamesh. Saber has suddenly used her avalon in front of Gil and has defeated him once. So the choice to fully judge your opponent's strength for an absolute victory was right, it's not called being a coward.

Ofcourse, though the point is she didn't know how Kirei was and how he worked. Same with Kiritsugu, he managed to fool people who even had info on him.
Yes, quite a lot of time Rin dealt with it poorly if you think about it and no she wouldn't be able to take out teen Kerry considering a situation if he was pitied against her in war. Kerry had already experience in killing mages, different types of weaponry which mages are weak against and even had the origin bullets at the time. Even his basic sniping would've been enough for Rin while the servants would be busy with each other considering how she was going around in FSN. And I am Not taking in consideration F/Z or prime Kiritsugu.
Peak rin would never be able to reach Kiritsugu's level. She would be more powerful as a mage that's for sure but more than direct combat Kiritsugu's strength lies in his schemes with which he can trump opponents even stronger than him. And like I said, it was stated in clear words that even kotomine kirei, as strong as he was in Fate/Zero, would've been dealt with "without any problem" if Kiritsugu was in his prime and that just puts Kiritsugu on an entirely different level. And most of it relates to his "absolute" brutal mentality which he lacked in Fate/Zero and thus had grown weak and was out of practice.
I really don't see Rin ever reaching that level as far as assassination skills and overall battle planning goes where even an opponent as formidable as kirei is not a problem anymore in the war not matter what phase of life she is in. I understand you like Rin and all but This is Kiritsugu's forte in which he is so good upto the point where even a F/Z kiritsugu babyshaked Kayneth.

Obviously it wasn't in Kiritsugu's plans but it doesn't change the end result that Kerry was never in any danger. His partner made a choice which never put him in danger so I don't see a problem here. If there was a possibility of Lancer betraying Saber she wouldn't have done that and nothing would've happened to kiritsugu, again.

What would Kirei do after losing both his arms. That just makes it more easy for kiritsugu to counter him and also provides him a path to escape from the black keys.

mira-nyan said:

This is the true answer.


This thread can be locked now.

LittleGao said:
I love how this thread essentially turned into a FSN vs FZ discussion

astroprogs said:

It did? I'm pretty sure that every side of the discussion agrees that F/Z is the better show.

Maloghurst said:
it still turned into F/Z vs F/SN...it's just the thread has completely derailed beyond recognition....you're not really debating the quality of the anime......

LitzSabr said:
Stuff about invading the stronghold

If it was kiritsugu he would've been pulling the strings not gilgamesh, I don't think he would care who his servant was.

stuff about bazzett

Stuff about Rin vs Kerry

Stuff about Lancers morality

KamiCity said:
Because blowing up a stronghold is the only underhanded tactics he could have used right? I mean, it's not like someone who went as far as blowing up an entire hotel wouldn't have more tricks up his/her sleeve.
Going into an enemy stronghold without his servant was stupid no matter how you put.

Wait what? So kiritsugu would control Gil now? Lmao, are you kidding me?

You mean how she was caught by surprise by someone who was not even involved in the war? Someone who she didn't even need to get info from to begin with? Someone who was loyal to the church and all he did was follow their orders until F/Z. Someone who wasn't the deceiving person he was until after F/Z. Why even bring her situation up? The situation is entirely different. It's not like Bazzett went in expecting to fight Kirie, Kirie wouldn't have won during FSN against Bazzett if she was expecting to fight. Prime Kirie maybe, but even then Bazzett wouldn't have been easy.


1. It's been mentioned mutliple times that kiritsugu won against mages because of their "magus pride." Something Rin doesn't have.

2. There is very little mention of what mages kiritsugu killed, but I don't remember there being any info on him killing any members of the top families of the mages association besides kayneth (he is not "the strongest mage" btw, not even close). Who as previously stated, was an idiot. Just because he's called the magus killer doesn't mean he can take on all mages, especially top tier magic association mages.

Also this is Rin we are talking about here, same rin that is taken is as zelrecht's protege.
INB4 you say Kiritsugu could take on Zelrecht
Not to mention the fact that it was mentioned that Kiritsugu during his teens mostly got in Natalia's way.

Please tell me where it is mentioned that kiritsugu prime could have handled kirie at any level easily. Especially kirie in his prime?

"Lancer kill that man" Command Spell, bye bye kiritsugu.
Saber had no way of knowing his magic circuits were cut, so the possibility of him using a command spell was still there.
This is the same kayneth who used a command spell making lancer help berserker to take on Saber before. It was obvious that he wouldn't have held back if he could have used the command spell then and there.
Unless you are going to argue that Saber knew what kind of danger Lancer's master was in when he told her, then there is no way for her to know so it was stupid on her part.
Also it seems like you are forgetting 2 things about the FSN fight between Lancer and Archer.
1. Rho Aias
2. A certain command spell that Lancer was under.
So yea Shirou being there was something that occurred out of Rin's control, but the possibility of archer surviving wasn't all that low anyway.


I know you like kiritsugu and all, but you are over glorifying him way to much.

astroprogs said:

How is it a F/Z vs F/SN discussion when there was no real comparison discussed outside of small bits here and there used for an entirely different topic? We WERE debating the quality of F/Z.

mira-nyan said:

Lol. Now you're debating about what you're debating. xDD


Roflmao. Oh, gawd, this is too much.

Machiavellism said:
I dunno man, I liked both F/Z and FSN UBW equally. Never read the VN, but I did watch the original FSN back from like 2005, 2006? If we're talking about that, then UBW by far blows that one out of the water. I'm interested to see the next one they adapt, which I think is Heaven's Feel? I could be wrong. I dunno, I'm not super picky about things like it being an adaptation.

LitzSabr said:
"stronghold stuff"

The king of heroes... a tool?

Information stuff

Rin Pride stuff

Kiritsugu prime stuff

F/Z Lancer stuff

Archer surviving

KamiCity said:
Doesn't matter, knowing "sabers master" was willing to pull dirty tricks like blowing up the hotel, then he should be expecting there to be plenty of traps in their own stronghold. Plus the einzberns are from europe, which he knows, so he would know that the stronghold in fuyuki city was only for the war. More reason not to barge in the front door expecting a duel like he did. That was stupid no matter how you put it.

In Rin + Shirou vs Caster + Kuzuki's case, Caster never attempted dirty tricks like those, having Assassin guarding the front gate was as far as she went. Now she switched to having archer... that's as far as it goes. If Rin + Shirou were invading Kiritsugu's place, you can bet they wouldn't rush in the front door

Kiritsugu would be dead, trying to use the king of heroes as a tool wouldn't sit well with him. Saber was shown to be able to resist command spells with force of will, against both Kiritsugu and Caster... you can bet Gil could do the same. In fact I think he does in Fate/Extra

If bazzett had gone in expecting to fight Kirie, same as tokiomi and kirie in Fate/Zero knew the magus killer had gotten hired by the einzberns, we can't say the situation would have been the same. She went in to meet an old acquaintance, whom she trusted. The situation is not the same, information doesn't matter when you are going to meet someone you know and he betrays you. Tokiomi and Kayneth weren't going to meet the magus killer as an old friend.


Rin punched a mage in the face during a magus battle, she doesn't have the pride of a magus that caused their downfall against kiritsugu. Magus aren't weak against kiritsugu's weapons, they just simply feel above them and feel their magic superior to modern weapons. Kiritsugu uses that to his advantage.
Rin doesn't have that pride, she doesn't like his way of doing things, but she isn't past using dirty tricks herself.... nor would she feel her magic is superior to guns to the point of not bothering against them.
The only thing Kiritsugu has against Rin is Origin Bullet, and that is only if she needs her magic circuits to activate her gems. If not, then there are plenty of ways of using her gems against OB.

Rin becomes a top tier mage, as mentioned she reaches the top 100 magus association members of all time. Kayneth, the strongest of magic in F/Z, doesn't compare to Rin. In fact FSN Rin was probably above Kayneth during the time.

It was mentioned that in his teens he got in her way, whether his early teens or late teens is debatable. Maybe 17-20 year old kerry would be able to defeat 17-20 year old rin, but that's the only time span I can give it to you.
Older versions... no chance.


That says nothing about beating him, that just says Kerry would be more composed and it might have attributed to him losing. No where in that does it say it would have been easy for kiritsugu. More clear headed doesn't equal auto win, it still would have been a tough battle for him.


That says nothing about magic circuits though, they just understood his life was in the balance. A dying Kayneth could have still used a command spell. This is the very reason Kiritsugu made Kayneth kill lancer before killing him, so lancer wouldn't have been able to retaliate when his master was in danger. It was a bad choice by saber.


Archer survived Lancers Gae Bolg with Rho Aias in UBW... Lancer was under a command spell during his first fight with every servant.
Archer has independent action, so unless his magical core is his heart then his chance of survival isn't all that low.
Plus there are still plenty of things Archer could have used, as seen in the Archer vs Lancer fight in UBW.

Sabers luck isn't abnormal either, it's only B rank with Shirou.

He has feats, no one is denying that, you are completely overselling them though. The thing you posted about kiritsugu in his prime isn't even what you are interpreting it to be.

MiniSiets said:
FSN 2006 was an OK first attempt but really suffered from lackluster animation and some weak attempts to combine routes.

UBW 2010 actually hits a lot of high points, but is held back by needing to blaze through the plot at an absurdly fast pace.

Fate/Zero is overrated pretentious drivel.

Illya is nice fanservice but not really a serious contender.

Prototype is whatever.

I guess I still gotta go with UBW 2014 in the end. Ignoring the mediocre second season, the first season was at least mostly spot-on with what I wanted to see out of it.

astroprogs said:

How is it a F/Z vs F/SN discussion when there was no real comparison discussed outside of small bits here and there used for an entirely different topic? We WERE debating the quality of F/Z.

Maloghurst said:
dude....your arguments are more in regards to both respective scource materials than their anime adaptations. and apparently kiritsugu can now face tank black keys....kriei's not tanking a contender round at that range they were both dead

astroprogs said:

I'll give you that we started discussing aspects of the source materials, but we still never tried to compare their aspects for it to become a vs discussion. We were discussing a character in F/Z and his abilities in regards to BOTH F/SN characters (Rin) and F/Z characters (Tokiomi and Kayneth both personally and as examples for typical mages).
And when did i ever say that Kiritsugu can survive a hit from the black keys? Also, how is range relevant when dodging was never the intent? Kirei dealt with an Origin bullet in that same exact fight a few minutes earlier.

Maloghurst said:
it's not really a "vs debate" what you two are arguing about is a subject that is really the subject of another thread. you guys have gotten quite a bit past the point of debating the qualities of both anime

litzsaber was saying that. he makes some decent points but the kerry wanking got retarded. and i have to take his cite about prime kiritsugu being able to take kirei no problem on the fact that the two combatants didnt really know the capabilities of the other, they just knew that each other are rival threats (i dont think kiritsugu knew that kirei can do things such as leap from several stories out of a building and land unharmed) range plays a factor in your reaction time. the first time kirie redirected the bullet he was at a much bigger distance then at the end of the fight. the guy is fast but he's no Dead Apostle. dude was almost on top of kiritsugu when the grail mud came poured in.

astroprogs said:

Yeah, ok. We derailed out of topic a bit there.

The difference is that Kirei knows what to expect this time. His reaction time has started way before the bullet actually fired. Kirei was fast enough to deflect a barrage of bullets from a machine gun earlier, so I'd say handling a single bullet that you know when and where it'll be fired makes this a whole lot manageable. Also wait, aren't we derailing the topic again by discussing this still? Not that i mind xD

Maloghurst said:
the rounds from that machine gun couldnt hurt kirei for shit. the contender rounds are about as powerful as thrown black keys. it punch through kirei from palm through the elbow...that's alot of shit to punch through especially when u consider kirei's durability. and he sure as hell didnt give kiritsugu the spacing to be able to escape. either he dodges the black keys and kirei smashes his head or he puts a killing round into kirei and eat's BK clearly kerry opted for the killing blow

astroprogs said:

Yeah, ok. We derailed out of topic a bit there.

The difference is that Kirei knows what to expect this time. His reaction time has started way before the bullet actually fired. Kirei was fast enough to deflect a barrage of bullets from a machine gun earlier, so I'd say handling a single bullet that you know when and where it'll be fired makes this a whole lot manageable. Also wait, aren't we derailing the topic again by discussing this still? Not that i mind xD

SaintEmiya said:
Well Kirei deflected small bullets with two hands of black keys, this time he's going against a slug with one hand of black keys and that isn't going to work. It has too much force to be deflected, you either block it or evade it however Kirei never actually showed the capability to evade any of the bullets completely.

Also Kiritsugu would have won without the grails intervention, Avalon would have healed those hits from the black keys if it could heal a destroyed heart. Kirei wouldn't get up from that point blank contender shot though.

astroprogs said:

The guy who has the speed to deflect like 20 bullets fired from a machine gun definitely has the capability of evading a very predictable singular bullet. And why do we keep forgetting that Kirei DID survive an Origin bullet. Not only that, his reflexes were fast enough that he deduced their destructive power and moved fast enough to divert the bullet's direction and change its path so it wouldn't hit his body after it completely penetrates his hand. THAT guy can evade a bullet he know is coming when and where exactly. Heck, even if he didn't evade he still has a way to deal with it when it hits.

Avalon's weakness is destroying the head. And even if Kerry still had the mana to activate another square accel to evade the black keys (Kirei has already adapted to the slower ones. It's why Kerry kept upping it to keep the element of surprise), he'll never get another chance at reloading the contender because, remember, Kerry had to use his two trump cards (Avalon and Square Accel) just to get the chance to buy time and reload it before.

SaintEmiya said:
There's a big difference between deflecting bullets with weaponry and moving your entire body to avoid bullets. Especially in the state kirei was in with one working arm and leg (the other leg having a knife run through it). Kirei couldn't have blocked it because he required to hands to black it with the reinforced black keys before. The only way he would have so much as drawn the fight would be if those black keys homed in on Kiritsugu's head.

astroprogs said:

As i said, Kirei survived an Origin bullet that directly hit his body before. Here, i marked the time it happened: https://youtu.be/NSgXOZKSt20?t=2m27s
He can do it again with his working arm.

nh66 said:
Zero is overrated, yet good
if only ubw was done in a proper way >__>

OneTrueBaita said:


UBW is underrated and good. Fite me you saltfags :C

nh66 said:

no complains about ubw, so i'm not a true salty

OneTrueBaita said:

-guh.
Should I be sad that I can no longer start a flame war about UBW or happy that the salt tide has finally receded...?

BaitOfJustice said:

Just wait to HF.

OneTrueBaita said:

Cherry's arrival may make the wars start earlier D:

BaitOfJustice said:

They are only a prelude until the movie eventually arrive to us. Then the true war will start.

OneTrueBaita said:

When the Counter Guardian Fai fights his past self in an attempt to erase any evidence of his love for the franchise...it will truly be an earth-shaking war.