CookingPriest said: Shrimperor said: and then everybody dies. UBW Shirou KNOWS he can't save everybody, and if put in a situation where he has to choose, he will choose. He will try to save everybody, but as a last resort he will choose somebody. Who he will choose? we don't know. It won't matter and won't affect his perception of the world or ideals because he made peace with idea that there will be failures. That's why UBW Shirou is most mature. Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will become Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. I agree that he is more mature then kerry, however Kerry isn't much mature to begin with. He knows he can't save everybody, however what if close/loved ones where in the situation? UBW doesn't answer that. |
ShrimperorApr 8, 2015 2:15 PM
| So Shirou's gonna choose to save both,save nobody,pat himself on the back and go "welp,at least I tried!" Such a mature individual,indeed. GangstaPriest said: Close to zero =/= zero tho??? If anything,if something has a low probability of occuring in Nasuverse,then it's absolutely more likely that it'll happen! |
GangstaPriest said: CookingPriest said: It is close to zero. so it is non-existent. Fate has biggest chance but others do not. Close to zero =/= zero tho??? Its like 0.0000001% iirc.So close to zero |
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bluntRespect said: Its like 0.0000001% iirc.So close to zero Not the point. |
| so apparently this new anime is a perfect adaptation and shirou is an idol lol okay. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: bluntRespect said: Its like 0.0000001% iirc.So close to zero Not the point. So you are taking the probability of it actually happening into consideration? |
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Shrimperor said: CookingPriest said: It won't matter and won't affect his perception of the world or ideals because he made peace with idea that there will be failures. That's why UBW Shirou is most mature. Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will becomes Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. I agree that he is more mature then kerry, however Kerry isn't much mature to begin with. He is not lying to himself. He does not become Archer because Archer never looked back and never accepted failure. He was pretty much at level of Prologue Shirou in understanding of ideas. Shirou is not trying to MAKE ideals happen to save people. He is LIVING BY the ideals because he finds it beautiful and self-fulfilling And yes, he might be hypocrite sometimes but he KNOWS IT(unlike Kerry) He accepts that he will fail, but not because of losing his own faith(hence not Archer nor Kerry). Failing at something is natural part of life. And just because you failed once or twice, it does no take the PROCCESS of living by the ideal any less beautiful or worthwile. Relisten to what he says to Rin in GY. You are not wrong simply because you failed at achieving what you believe in. Someone who is aware of his limits and of nature of idealism is pretty much the healthiest and happiest outcome for him |
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bluntRespect said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: Not the point. So you are taking the probability of it actually happening into consideration? Indeed. And Fai's ignoring it. |
Shrimperor said: CookingPriest said: It won't matter and won't affect his perception of the world or ideals because he made peace with idea that there will be failures. That's why UBW Shirou is most mature. Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will become Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. I agree that he is more mature then kerry, however Kerry isn't much mature to begin with. He knows he can't save everybody, however what if close/loved ones where in the situation? UBW doesn't answer that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma You can't put him in a situation where there is no chance of an alternative and then bash the character based on that. |
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Shrimperor said: CookingPriest said: It won't matter and won't affect his perception of the world or ideals because he made peace with idea that there will be failures. That's why UBW Shirou is most mature. Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will becomes Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. That's the thing: he knows he's a hypocrite, yet he still chooses to live by it, knowing that there will be failures. Lollo36 said: Of course. It still doesn't explain why someone would compare Kiritsugu's way of pursuing his ideal, which was framed as wrong by his own show, to Shirou's lifestyle at the end of the story when he's already fully developed. It would make more sense to compare the two based on their flawed ways of living at the start of their stories, or based on the conclusions they reach at the end. Because even at the start of Fate/Zero, Kiritsugu's ideal is already fully developed. All that comes from Fate/Zero is breaking of said ideal. While Shirou at the start of Fate/Stay Night only has Kiritsugu's ideal and then develops into his own person. If you really want to compare them at the start of their stories, you would need to compare pre-island incident Kerry with prologue Shirou. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
nocorras said: Shrimperor said: Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will become Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. I agree that he is more mature then kerry, however Kerry isn't much mature to begin with. He knows he can't save everybody, however what if close/loved ones where in the situation? UBW doesn't answer that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma You can't put him in a situation where there is no chance of an alternative and then bash the character based on that. Not to mention that the whole point of UBW is him realizing that it is not "one or the other" DamnThatsTheSpot said: So Shirou's gonna choose to save both,save nobody,pat himself on the back and go "welp,at least I tried!" Such a mature individual,indeed. Actually yes. it is mature. FAILING at something has nothing to do with right or wrong of your ideological path. It is just part of life. NO MATTER what you believe in, you will fail at some point in time. Accepting it as possibility of anything you do and being able to move past that IS what maturity is about. |
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CookingPriest said: Shrimperor said: Mature as in lying to himself. If he kills Rin, he will becomes Archer. If he kills the 100 People, and yet still clings to his ideal, then he is a hypocrite. I agree that he is more mature then kerry, however Kerry isn't much mature to begin with. He is not lying to himself. He does not become Archer because Archer never looked back and never accepted failure. He was pretty much at level of Prologue Shirou in understanding of ideas. Shirou is not trying to MAKE ideals happen to save people. He is LIVING BY the ideals because he finds it beautiful and self-fulfilling And yes, he might be hypocrite sometimes but he KNOWS IT(unlike Kerry) He accepts that he will fail, but not because of losing his own faith(hence not Archer nor Kerry). Failing at something is natural part of life. And just because you failed once or twice, it does no take the PROCCESS of living by the ideal any less beautiful or worthwile. Relisten to what he says to Rin in GY. You are not wrong simply because you failed at achieving what you believe in. Someone who is aware of his limits and of nature of idealism is pretty much the healthiest and happiest outcome for him So, it's ok all 101 die because he tried to save both and failed? He will just live knowing he caused Rin's death, and be happy at the same time? He is worse then Kerry then. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: bluntRespect said: So you are taking the probability of it actually happening into consideration? Indeed. And Fai's ignoring it. May I ask why?Is it due to the general unpredictable nature of Nasuverse? |
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| "If you choose to protect ideals,all you will save is ideals" edit: eh,i was close enough If you fight for ideals, the only thing you can save are ideals. There is no way you can save people. |
bluntRespect said: He already pointed that out in an earlier post.DamnThatsTheSpot said: Indeed. And Fai's ignoring it. May I ask why?Is it due to the general unpredictable nature of Nasuverse? And it was mainly to counter Fai's idea that we know exactly and for certain how Shirou's future is gonna play. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: "If you choose to protect ideals,all you will save is ideals" edit: eh,i was close enough If you fight for ideals, the only thing you can save are ideals. There is no way you can save people. But he is not doing that. That is GOAL=IDEAL thining Shirou LIVES by ideals. He does not protect the ideal. He protect the people according to ideal. And not because of ideal but because the ideal is beautiful TO HIM |
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He would chose both and try to save both. It is better to try and fail than to chose and give up. This is what he's gonna do in the Rin situation according to you. How you see that as different from him choosing to not stray from his ideal of "SAVE EVERYBODY" over the actual people in need of saving is beyond me. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: He would chose both and try to save both. It is better to try and fail than to chose and give up. This is what he's gonna do in the Rin situation according to you. How you see that as different from him choosing to not stray from his ideal of "SAVE EVERYBODY" over the actual people in need of saving is beyond me. You are still talking about ideal as goal. Shirou moved past it in UBW. |
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| I'd hardly call either of them mature, but if I had to chose then my vote goes to kiritsugu. |
| Kiristugu is too "edgy" (as in resorts to violent conclusions without considering other possibilities as if he was somehow programmed to do so... Maybe it's why his Origin is Severe), inconsistent with actions and end goal to be more mature than Shirou. Just take for example how each deal with the grail or the holy grail war. |
| I didn't want to post until next episode, but I have to call out to the people now, to not casually post spoilers without spoiler tags here. I have seen that here in some posts. Remember neither the title of the thread nor the opening post have the word "SPOILERs" anywhere. |
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I don't even know if this was a spoiler but the above post is scary. |
| "When they're alive, you can enjoy watching them struggle. When they're dead, you can enjoy tearing out their guts. Tales are things you get to enjoy twice." |
Praland said: CarenPriest said: Let's face it, Kiritsugu's lifestyle is self-destructive, and while it may be dark, in no way can it be considered 'idealistically mature'. Rather than being mature, it's more like he's given up. Like a kid who couldn't handle the harsh reality, and so dedicated his whole life to changing it. But he wears a long coat so more points to him. The long coat gives bonus points. |
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Tehqo said: damn straight nothin spells cool like long coatPraland said: But he wears a long coat so more points to him. The long coat gives bonus points.  |
CookingPriest said: You are still talking about ideal as goal. Shirou moved past it in UBW. Doesn't change the fact that we don't know what he will do in this situation. If he causes everybodies death and then goes ''I failed. meh. so what?'', that isn't mature. That is being assholish. |
ShrimperorApr 8, 2015 4:43 PM
| By the end of F/Z, all Kiritsugu is able to do is regret the path he took. He basically ruins his own life and the life of others throughout F/Z. I wouldn't that say that's necessarily immature because that's what he believed in, but if you consider their thoughts after everything's said and done, he's clearly unhappy with his decisions. Doesn't that speak for itself? |
| Kerry 4thelulz |
| Kiritsugu obviously Everyone knows being edgy = mature and Kiritsugu is the supreme edgy lord of these series ...besides he has guns unlike shirou who has to use shitty swords instead and guns are totally more mature than swords am I right? Flawless logic is flawless |
| I imagine it would be something like |
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Journey_95 said: Shrimperor said: Doesn't change the fact that we don't know what he will do in this situation. If he causes everybodies death and then goes ''I failed. meh. so what?'', that isn't mature. That is being assholish. this is true UBW Shirou seems more healthier than the others but he also didn't have to make a hard choice yet unlike HF Shirou What do you think UBW Shirou would do in that situation? probably try to save everyone and at the end no one is saved All Shirou's are the same at heart, it's just the different things that happened in each route that made him different. So I guess that if presented with a HF situation he would ultimately behave the same manner he behaved in HF |
nocorras said: I imagine it would be something like |
MightyM16 said: All Shirou's are the same at heart, it's just the different things that happened in each route that made him different. So I guess that if presented with a HF situation he would ultimately behave the same manner he behaved in HF Same, nobody agree's with me tho Anyway this thread actually wasn't as trollish as It looked on the outside. Although it is a little unfair to Kiritsugu because his character Is built of Shirou's... But in reverse. |
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Journey_95 said: MightyM16 said: I think he would betray his ideal like HF Shirou did All Shirou's are the same at heart, it's just the different things that happened in each route that made him different. Yeah I agree they really aren't that different I doubt Fate Shirou/UBW Shirou would act any differently They can just easily say that they will follow their ideals but they never had to make that kind of choice Exactly All routes are still valid tho, since they represent diferent manners to live with oneself. It's just that the HF manner of all of them is the most realistic |
Shrimperor said: nocorras said: I imagine it would be something like Not really. It's the easy way out to do it right off the bat and UBW Shirou flat out states he prefers to try and resolve the situation first by trying to save everyone. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: I imagine it would be something like Could be I just can't imagine that he would kill her no matter what Shirou I don't think that he has what it takes (not a cold murderer like Kerry) |
| "When they're alive, you can enjoy watching them struggle. When they're dead, you can enjoy tearing out their guts. Tales are things you get to enjoy twice." |
| Although we probably shouldn't derail this into UBW VS HF, c'mon guys keep it on topic. Kiri bashing |
|
Journey_95 said: Shrimperor said: Doesn't change the fact that we don't know what he will do in this situation. If he causes everybodies death and then goes ''I failed. meh. so what?'', that isn't mature. That is being assholish. this is true UBW Shirou seems more healthier than the others but he also didn't have to make a hard choice yet unlike HF Shirou What do you think UBW Shirou would do in that situation? probably try to save everyone and at the end no one is saved Shirou is the same in all routes. What determines his options/decisions are the circumstances that change in each route. You can't send Shirou back in time after he's been through everything in one of the routes and put him through the different circumstances of another route, so that question doesn't make much sense to be honest. |
WrongPriest said: Although we probably shouldn't derail this into UBW VS HF, c'mon guys keep it on topic. Kiri bashing okay then Kerry a shit /k Discuss |
WinniePooh said: did u guys even watch the anime ? shirou is fucking stupid This isn't about if he's stupid or not. |
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nocorras said: WinniePooh said: did u guys even watch the anime ? shirou is fucking stupid This isn't about if he's stupid or not. It's a battle of the retards |
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WinniePooh said: did u guys even watch the anime ? shirou is fucking stupid Good one. |
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WinniePooh said: lols i like how you not only ignored the title of the thread but , ignored all the arguments and debates, but also ignored the fact that many of the posters here have actually read the material so you can make your post.did u guys even watch the anime ? shirou is fucking stupid but in any case they're both fucktarded Kirei best character in fate because he's modeled the true best longcoat |
MaloghurstApr 8, 2015 6:24 PM
nocorras said: iravuseiba said: HF Shirou is the only sane Emiya. Yeah It's sane to do what he did. /s I wouldn't label any Shirou as sane considering their distortions. Good luck living with yourself after doing what HF Shirou did/went through. No Emiya's exactly sane. But some are more sane than others. Think about the trolley problem, and the 5 people are some random strangers you know nothing about and the 1 person is some one you love. Kerry will decide to sacrifice the 1 person he loves to save 5 people with almost no hesitation. Fate Shirou will attempt to destroy the trolley, with very small chance of success and high chance of getting himself killed. UBW Shirou will attempt to do the same but Rin will convince Shirou to save the one he loves. HF Shirou will save the one he loves. I say for most people, the one they love is more important than some random strangers, therefore, even though HF Shirou can't be labeled as exactly sane, he is most sane of all Emiyas imo. |
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