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Metroid_Ex said: You don't seem to see the main problem with this piece of shit and that is the god awful characters and how inconstant they are. Can you tell me how inconstant they are, please? Metroid_Ex said: This anime is not deep at all. It's just ep 10. How do you know that it's not deep? |
| I think the VN readers should back down a bit with some of the responses to the fantasy believers. If they want to believe everything they see that happens is real, and become disappointed, let them do it. It's not like a huge loss or anything. It's part of the experience, even if it can be painful for them. If some people are as stubborn in believing the fantasy stuff as Battler is in denying magic and witches, just let them believe it. |
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| Hahaha oh man, those threads are the highlights after every ep... As a VN reader I couldnt care less about the Anime only fags and their complaining about it, if you dont get the concept, stop watching it, thats all there is to it, it was the same with Higurashi S2, people hated it because it had a deeper meaning and it wasnt little girls slaughtering each other anymore. Like I stated earlier, this adaption is for the VN readers, if you try to understand Umineko by only watching the Anime, youre doing it wrong. Same goes for hating on it, you cant hate the series as a whole if you didnt read the VN, hate on the Anime all you want, because its impossible to put all the feeling of the VN into a animated show. Also, Metroid_Ex said: Hahaha, thats a good onedeep, deep you say. If you want to watch something deep go watch Kino's Journey. This anime is not deep at all. |
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| What I love most is that there are a lot of VN readers who seem to feel superior because they have more (but not all) of the information. Almost as though they know the complete solution, and aren't also in a place of uncertainty. For that, I'd like to especially commend MarthX for remaining patient and maintaining a tone that isn't condescending toward other members. It's a negative tone like that that takes us out of the realm of true discussion and into flames baiting. |
Trineas said: Like I stated earlier, this adaption is for the VN readers, if you try to understand Umineko by only watching the Anime, youre doing it wrong. I don't think so, if the watchers can't understand it without the original work, then that means the adaption sucks. And I think the anime is doing quite well so far. |
In chess, a back rank checkmate is a checkmate delivered by a rook or queen along a back rank (that is, the row on which the pieces (not pawns) stand at the start of the game) in which the mated king is unable to move up the board because the king is blocked by friendly pieces (usually pawns) on the second rank. Back rank mates occur quite often in games at fairly low levels, as it occurs out of carelessness. This is due to the fact that beginners typically lack the skill to realize that such a fate could occur based on the laws of the game. This describes Battler's situation in EP2 perfectly. DEEN is doing a good job with the episode titles. |
LunarEmeraldSep 3, 2009 8:54 PM
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| One thing I would like to say is that the majority of what the VN readers say is going to be simple speculation. Most of the VN readers are good in that regard but a few of them seem to be relaying this speculation as facts which I do not agree with. And I will agree that if you don't want to seriously think about what you are seeing than you will most likely not like Umineko. But there is nothing wrong with not wanting to have to seriously think about a series. If someone just wants to watch something and enjoy it like that there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean that person is an idiot or anything of the sort. And it is a perfectly valid reason to not like the series. That being said I think I have only seen around 2 or 3 VN readers acting like elitists over the course of these discussion threads, so I don't think its been that bad. Although as a VN reader my opinion may be biased and I'm viewing elitist comments as non-elitist. |
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| You know, honestly, I almost think this show is anti-thought. It takes a genre which is supposed to be about thinking, and stuffs it with elements that, in these cirumstances just don't agree, arguing that point back and forth, to the point that it's not really about thinking, it's just about guessing and seeing what is the lesser of two evils when you as a viewer have very little to stand on (not even the world itself), or not thinking at all and just enjoying the killings, swords fights, furniture battles, cackles, twisted faces, and music as they appear. |
| Nope, because I'm at the point where I'm looking at it from both sides since I'm not satisfied with the presentation of magic in the show, and I yet still believe that magic was the cause of the initial murders. As you can see from my posts in this episode and I think maybe the last two, I've been more concerned about what is said regarding where people are and what they are and aren't saying. To me, the whole show is over-wrought and trying too hard to be cerebral with the "turning the chessboard around," blurry, undefined, inconsistent narration, meta-world, Schroedinger's cat and other thought experiments while doing a terrible job at the most important things like 3 dimensional characters, coherence, and focus. |
| This is a quote from Bern in the VN that should have been inlcluded in episode 5 of the anime but for some reason was not. It somewhat explains how you should be thinking. "First of all, about that girl. She does have the name Beatrice, but that does not mean that she is 'one individual women'. See what I mean? In other words, she's not some human. Her existence is a personification of the rules of this world. To beat her, you have to expose the rules of this world, and unravel them. If we were to compare, it would be something like learning the rules by watching a game of chess where you don't know them. First, take a good look at the chessboard. Then, learn the movements and roles of the pieces. Then, look for the conditions required to win at her game. When you've managed to expose those, there her heart will be exposed. After that, you can rip it apart or crush it as you please." |
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| Isn't that what everyone wants? Isn't that the basis of good storytelling? And yet people say it's good, most of the episodes have a majority of positive votes, and I'm left scratching my head why. |
| I think different people have different opinions on what they want from a story. Some people are willing to look past a bad plot if it has really good characters, and some people are willing to look past horribly developed characters if the plot is really interesting. |
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| Thinking the story isn't coherent would the same as thinking Higurashi's wasn't. Kai proved otherwise. They're called question arcs for a reason you know. |
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| @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. |
noteDhero said: Isn't that what everyone wants? Isn't that the basis of good storytelling? And yet people say it's good, most of the episodes have a majority of positive votes, and I'm left scratching my head why. From here and other forums, from what I've seen they like it because of the mystery. Even if they don't understand what's going on, they still like to make theories. They also realize that the series is continually building up. Which is right. Every arc builds off another and as a result, it only improves as it goes on. A lot of people also enjoy mindfucks. They enjoy not knowing what's going or what's going to happen. Aside from knowing people will die, Umineko is very unpredictable. Just when you think things can't get crazier, they do. |
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noteDhero said: @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. Higurashi's first season is more coherent because it includes two of the Answer Arcs. In fact, just more than a half of it is Question Arcs. Let's assume that Higurashi's first season ends at ep 15, I'm sure that everyone will say "wtf". About Umineko, I think there is no question needed to ask apart from "Who did it? How? Why?" And about the solid perspective, yes, Umineko doesn't have it. But what is the problem? Even if we have a solid perspective, we still can't trust whatver we see. People can lie, evidence can be fake. So we still have to think and decide ourselves what we should trust. So just do the same thing with Umineko. |
noteDhero said: @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. Questions were asked with the seemingly impossible murders. And now the series is forcing magic down your throat. Trying to make you submit and believe magic is the cause of everything. EP2 is described as "the difficulty is top-rate" And "The Witch intends to make you surrender with no warning" But this is Ryuukishi we're talking about here. The answer isn't going something obvious. The series isn't going to be as black and white as it appears to be. We're just scratching at the surface of the series. Trying to understand all of Umineko right now would be like trying to understand all of Higurashi at Watanagashi. There's so much that we don't know. (VN readers included) Watanagashi by the way is the second arc of Higurashi. |
LunarEmeraldSep 3, 2009 10:39 PM
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| Yeah. The first season of Higurashi covered 6 arcs, 2 of which were answer arcs. Question Onikakushi (1-4) Watanagashi (5-8) Tatarigoroshi (9-13) Himatsubushi (14-15) Answer Meakashi (16-21) Tsumihoroboshi (22-26) This season of Umineko will only cover the first four arcs. It would like Higurashi's first season stopping at episode 15. |
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PsychFreak said: There are indeed questions to be asked and that is what the Meta-World is for, Beatrice is presenting you with the questions while Battler tries to answer it. The thing is, Battler as of now is having a hard time trying to figure most of this out so we aren't really getting any answers yet. If you don't want to question what you saw that's fine but you have to explain why it can't be questioned in the first place, otherwise you're just riding on with Beatrice for the hell of it. PsychFreak said: If you look at the story this way, the Meta-World can make a whole lot more sense. It can also make sense on how there are questions being presented. I'm not confused about the way the story works. After a breakdown during the transition between the first and second arcs, that's totally clear to me. I'm making observations on the show as a whole. You're leaving out a couple of important points, though: 1) You are also dead, and you have recollection of it. 2) The person filling you in claims to be your killer. If I look at it the way that you ask, of course there are questions that are in my head because as far as I know, magic doesn't exist. The rub of this "reality" is that Battler already knows he's dead and a woman using golden butterflies claims to be the killer. Should he still question her motives for being so upfront? Yes. Does Battler do that? No. Instead, he wastes time saying magic doesn't exist, and denying her existence, failing to come up with a logical explanation for anything he tries to prove. His very existence is a diversion of anti-fantasy proponents. Instead of actually pushing forward trying to discover who killed him and his family, Battler refuses to suspect anyone. On the level of the show being a mystery, it fails big time because of this, since we're stuck with an ignoramous of a main character chasing his tail while the antagonist simply laughs at his inanity. Beatrice isn't really asking any questions that weren't asked in those first five episodes, those being: "What's happening?" and "How is that possible?" Most of the time, rather than actually attempt to figure out what is going on, Battler is defending the next person to be questioned with his silly metaphors, and only once (maybe twice) did he succeed, but only to bring him back to square one. If we look at this second, untrustworthy narrator within the game board as Beatrice, then she's giving us crazy random answers to deaths that may or may not have happened. That's why I've said, for maybe the third episode now, that there seem to be only a handful of truly important things mentioned during a single episode, while the rest is all a big diversion. I almost totally ignore Battler, and instead concentrate on what Beatrice is not saying. What Maria says before and after Higurashi face, and any other peculiar going's on between the servants and the doctor. That's it. Flying daggers, spiderwebs, bulk of meta conversations, etc bear almost no weight with me because it all seems like flashy diversion. Filler if you will. 4saken_762 said: Higurashi's first season is more coherent because it includes two of the Answer Arcs. In fact, just more than a half of it is Question Arcs. Let's assume that Higurashi's first season ends at ep 15, I'm sure that everyone will say "wtf". About Umineko, I think there is no question needed to ask apart from "Who did it? How? Why?" And about the solid perspective, yes, Umineko doesn't have it. But what is the problem? Even if we have a solid perspective, we still can't trust whatver we see. People can lie, evidence can be fake. So we still have to think and decide ourselves what we should trust. So just do the same thing with Umineko. As I said, I was ''wtf" after the first arc, and then everything else ran together because it was the same notes being hit over and over again, just in a differen't way. It's not like Umineko where one episode is more outrageous than the next, there's no uniform perspective, and there is nothing to go off of. Higurashi would just have been boring and pointless, feeling more like an empty harem, than anything else. Umineko just feels like a scatterbrained mess. |
noteDheroSep 3, 2009 11:48 PM
| Anything said in red is very important. If you ignore that then you truly have nothing to go on. Battler does make up good points time to time but his way of thinking is immature and naive. He relies too much of his chess board thinking and that only works when there's no noise. If your opponent doesn't always play at their best or make the best moves then trying to see things from their perspective will get you nowhere. Battler has his moments in this arc (which were greatly toned down in the anime) but he's more or less a fool in this arc. You are incompetent. He doesn't stay this way though. But there are (although few) VN readers who don't like Battler, so I won't be surprised if even at the end of the season, people still don't like him. |
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noteDhero said: Monad said: This is what i wrote last time and still nothing seems to disapprove them so am still thinking of this. So then she faked her death during the real murders and continued to pick everyone off that way? Basically yes. Since the bodies had there faces destroyed you can't be certain of there identity. |
| Preview for 11 |
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| Oh my it really is going to be the finale of EP2 next week. owo -prays- |
PsychFreak said: You can probably say at this point he is giving in to the witch and is very well on his way to losing this game because he does not want to suspect anyone he knows on the island. So he's not as so much as chasing his own tail as he is being beaten down by Beatrice's own game. Right now he isn't use to how this game is being played so he has to learn the hard way. Edit: Beatrice to Battler: You are incompetent. I still wished they used that here. In fact even Maria pointed that out in the first arc when she told him that he only suspected the witch whenever it was convenient to him. I don't blame or mind people hating on Battler since its their opinion, especially at this point where he's being a complete fool. What the anime is really lacking is the internal monologues of the characters which were cut for time restraints or whatever reason and this has proven to be fatal as the characters aren't given the depth they do in the SN at making the anime-only watchers have a better feel towards the cast. Also, I'm not pleased with how some of the SN players are acting as though they've solved the mystery and are stating things as though they are facts. Mind you, as of the moment NONE OF US really know whats going on, keep that in mind (those who've played Ep5 have a better edge though) so all of the SN players whom this may be concerned, please get off your high horse. @preview Oh my~ next week looks like it'll be a blast. Am I the only one who was severely distracted by Kumasawa's "pudding~ pudding~"? XD P.S. Is it really too difficult to slip in the You are incompetent line? I reckon squeezing it in would only add about 5 seconds, to show Beato speaking the line and Battlers reaction. |
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| Maybe DEEN didn't like that line. I've seen it cause some to doubt the red truth because a statement like that is more of an opinion than a fact. |
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| Good episode, I learned from Higurashi to take everything with a grain of sault. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
MarthX said: Makes sense, after all I found kihihihihihihihi to be a very odd use of red truth, if you can even call it that.Maybe DEEN didn't like that line. I've seen it cause some to doubt the red truth because a statement like that is more of an opinion than a fact. |
KantarouSep 4, 2009 5:52 AM
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| I'm thinking I should've read the VN now lol, I'm liking this show alot and the mystery is killing me. I like this arc alot I really like Rosa for some reason lol, and Ghoda WTF!?!?!? lol that was so funny. I can't wait for what this show is set to bring, It's still the beginning so I'm hoping for the best :D |
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MarthX said: Maybe DEEN didn't like that line. I've seen it cause some to doubt the red truth because a statement like that is more of an opinion than a fact. BUt that's not a lie, at that moment Battler was 'certainly' incompetent. Red truth is always true, but it can change afterwards, but at that moment, red truth is absoloutely true. Maybe they'll add it next chapter, since I think they'll give it another episode |
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| It seems people already come to the conclusion that you need VN to appreciate this anime. well, I dont think so. Up to this point, I think I can understand pretty well and I havent completely lost interest in the show, which is why its good. If you want to see some good character development in a show, the character is usually not introduced to be super genius at first place, but rather a dumb*ss :-) (example: Tengen Toppa, Eureka7 or Juuni Kokuki) That is, I believe, what is happening to Battler. He is for sure one dumb*ss for me. (up to this point) And his thinking-pattern seems conflicting and even totally illogical sometimes, but thats how it supposed to be i guess. There is going to be 26 episodes (+possible another season) for this show, we are at 10, but the culprit is now almost too obvious already, only the explanation is still left unmentioned. So is it going to be 10+episodes (+2nd season) for explanation? Obviously no. ^_^ Oh my, I even forgot next episode is going to be final for this arc, which means all are dead by the end of that :-) And it is going to start all over again. well, if it does start all over again, i guess Battler would realize that if he is going to deny magic, he needs to suspect his own family, there is just no way out....thats what you call character development there |
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| And they really skipped the "You're incompetent". Oh well, there goes my favorite red text scene so far xD. Really gave a sense of total defeat for Battler, added to piece Battler cracking. I'm sad for shippers as well since they also skipped  But on the other hand...  |
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| Bea's laugh about 7 min in sounded really bad >.> |
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Keykeyoh said: Bea's laugh about 7 min in sounded really bad >.> Oh yeah, I noticed it xD I couldn't help and laughed too. |
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison. If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress. Current icon: Kusuriuri from Mononoke by pana (LJ username) |
Keykeyoh said: Bea's laugh about 7 min in sounded really bad >.> I thought it managed to get the spirit of "ahaha.wav" (ok, that sounds ridiculous, but seriously it does); holy mackerel what an annoying and mockering laugh that is. This part in the novel is ahahax9000; it even had an aha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-hacombobreaker. |
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| Way too rushed compared to how it happened in the VN... |
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| they are showing a lot of beatrices weaknesses lately, the mirror or the spider. wonder how it will end. |
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| For a murder mystery I cannot come up with any explanation, do not know what's going on. What an annoying anime? *pouts* |
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