Is the harem genre trashy?

No more so than any other genre. I just want more true harems, that's all I ask for.

@Archean-Return Are true harems when the character ends up with 1 person or all of them? Just want to make sure

@Silverlight41 A true harem is when the main character is in a romantic (or even sexual) relationship with multiple heroines. Many "harem" anime are what I'd define as "fake harems" — where many heroines pine over the main character as part of his entourage, but the MC actually only ends up with the main heroine. These fake harem anime are just a detour on the way to the same monogamous relationship you see in any regular romance anime.

I am not confusing anything. Yes, the "harem" genre has a decidedly liberal, broad scope for the sake of encompassing enough anime to be qualified as its own genre, but it's still dubious from a definitional perspective. Being aware of the context of the genre does not preclude someone from reasonably asking for more faithful depictions of legitimate harems, especially considering how outnumbered they are by the much more conventional fake harems.

There's very little distinguishing fake harems from love triangles, love polygons or any other romance anime where a female other than the lead heroine (the predominant "winner") who routinely associates with the MC displays romantic affection for him. Someone could get pedantic about it and point to presentation and/or dramatic intent to differentiate these themes and genres, but they're ultimately very similar when you get into the grit of it. The cheapness of fake harems cannot be denied, no matter how ingrained they are as a cop-out way of providing what is honestly ungratifying, superficial fanservice. Fanservice in true harems actually benefits from there being some elements of reciprocation on the main character's part, thus giving the "satellite heroines" a real chance at swaying the MC's mind through it, something which fake harems cannot do.

@Archean-Return You are exactly confused, because harem has never been a genre about a literal harem in the truest sense of the word. Just like yuri is not a show about lilies, flowers or gardening in general, using lilies as a symbol of the purity and innocence of young women. If you're calling harems fake because the show has one obvious female lead, then you simply don't understand why the genre uses that word to define it. It's literally a genre of media about a protagonist's multiple love interests and there's nothing complicated about it. None of this is fake just because it isn't a literal harem.

@RobertBobert Then perhaps you're reading into a quote I never made, because I don't recall deferring to the history of the genre as grounds for legitimising the terminology to begin with, or claiming that the fictional genre just doesn't outright exist. It's very obvious that the "Harem" genre has taken on its own identity, separating itself from strict adherence to the original meaning it was derived from. However, given how its etymology isn't rooted in symbolism like "Yuri" is, it stands to reason that there is very sufficient grounds for questioning why it so frequently avoids adhering to the most fundamental principles of a real harem. The fact that fake harems have to be distinguished from real harems in animanga so that people can actively seek out the former is a testament to the issues with the genre itself.

It's definitely one of the worst genres. Imagine your waifu fighting other girls over the MC you don't care for.

@Rhae If you wouldn't want waifu to end up with some bland guy to begin with, why not have other girls that are trying to keep them apart?

The harem genre encompasses both real and fake harems. Whether or not these two subordinate designations are applicable to the definition of their genre has little to do with whether or not they're faithful to the original etymology of the term "harem". It isn't fallacious to acknowledge the individual context of the harem genre, while also understanding that its lack of specificity has to be compensated for with words such as "fake harem", which facilitate the distinction necessary for people to easily differentiate them. You've defined these as "support harems" instead, but it's synonymous with the exact same concept of a polygynous relationship, with the only difference being that the softer language omits the negative connotations associated with something being "fake".

Nah, the harem genre is a gift to this world. The main problem with harems is that they either have first girl win (99% of the time), or intentionally choose the worst girl to subvert the genre. 5bun did this, fuck 5bun.

And you're ignoring that the distinction between the harem genre and the original meaning of a harem in the context that the genre is derivative of—a polygynous relationship—has already been understood. However, because the genre borrows so heavily from the term "harem" (seeing as the term is homonymous), it has to be compartmentalised somehow, and designations like "fake harem" and "true harem" are some of the ways of achieving this.

Whether or not you define these pseudo-harems as "fake harem" or "support harems" is irrelevant, as the only effective difference between these two terms is, once again, the connotations associated with them. These distinctions aren't some denial of the existence of the genre as a whole, but they may serve to demonstrate a sort of literary critique with how the harem genre has manifested itself instead. The allegedly small part you mentioned earlier is actually the key element in real harems, and it's about as necessary as distinguishing the likes of non-blood related siblings from blood-related siblings, or "yuribait" from a yuri relationship. People make these distinctions because the genres, tropes and subjects they engage with have certain limitations in their specificity; the discourse surrounding the pleasantness of these colloquial terms is just semantics.

When the genre is supposed to represent the original meaning to a certain degree, it is very much of concern. The homonymous borrowing of such a noun would be inexplicable if there wasn't some meaning to the connection. Not once did I deny that fake harems are not a subcategory of the harem genre, as the genre demonstrably has a looser application of the term "harem" in its own context, but I did highlight the importance of these divisions in tying themselves back to the original meaning, thus paving over (to an extent) the rift created by this dissonance. The source of the confusion you're referencing here doesn't stem from the existence of "fake harems"; rather, it comes as a result of what I surmise is an emotional qualm with the connotations of something being defined as "fake". The quotes I never made that you're attributing to me regardless aren't something that can be held accountable for.

On another note, the "genre rules" you associate with distinguishing "yuribait" from yuri could also appear to be quite nebulous, as even mere emotional or spiritual connections between two girls have been categorised as yuri within the context of the yuri genre. This isn't so much an example of contradiction as it is a demonstration of how liberally defined the yuri genre really is, which is something it has in common with the harem genre. Even some of your examples of harem anime, such as SAO, aren't even tagged as harem on MAL, despite this site demonstrably having its own "genre rules".

Something being trashy doesn't necessarily make something the worst or bad. Pretty much most Anime that gets released is basically trash just like when people see too many family sitcoms that all seem to be a like or even reality TV that follow the same type of formulas to keep the audience interested enough to keep watching.

The only reason why there is this perception of harem themed Anime being extremely trashy is because it's just so over used mostly to further reinforce the self insertion for viewers. Just about any theme/genre can be seen as trashy when it's over used as much as harems are in Anime. One could even say Moe is over used but Moe is just apart of Anime just as much as Mecha, Isekai, CGDCT, and panty fanservice, etc... Harem Anime is just another part of Anime just like all the other things I have mentioned.

One could take any Anime they put on the highest pedestal above all other Franchises and just imagine for a moment if every Anime ever released was exactly like it to the point they are all just clones of one another and some even better produced with a better stories. Likely one wouldn't look upon that one Anime as highly anymore. It would likely be viewed as just another piece of trash much like all the other Anime titles just like it.

I'd contest that the original context or application of the term was ignored, as it's been repeatedly acknowledged, but I can agree that this particular reply chain is repetitive enough to disengage from. See you.

@ColourWheel The problem is not so much that harems are trashy, but that those who accuse the harem of this are not against trashy anime themselves, just only when it suits their tastes. However, this problem is not unique to harems; just look at how many isekai haters are ready to watch and praise any isekai with a female protagonist. This is the problem, people are often unable to realize that behind their dislike of some type of media lies not so much objective problems in quality, but rather the fact that it is outside the boundaries of their tastes.

You really think this is the case? Just imagine for a moment only one harem Anime was ever produced and just that one harem Anime ever existed, you really think people would still view just that one Anime as trashy?

I like Harem Animes and I think they are still mostly trashy. There is a certain charm about harems in Anime that simply couldn't exist in other themed Anime where certain cringy scenarios wouldn't be the same or even exist at all without Harems.

@Archean-Return The original meaning of the word harem should not concern us at all, because we are using the word in a certain context, discussing a certain type of media. By mixing them you simply create a very crude semantic contradiction that distorts the discourse and turns our dialogue into communication between a deaf and mute. These shows may be "fake" in terms of the literal real harem, but they are not at all fake in terms of the harem genre, because in both cases the word is used in different contexts.

It is not surprising that you confused yourself, because your too loose use of context and scope of application shifted in your eyes the various nuances of our subject matter. For example, first you state that they are fake from the point of view of the real meaning of the word, but then you state that fake harems are similar to yuribait, that is, on the contrary, they should be considered fake from the point of view of genre rules. That is, we get a contradiction where you simultaneously recognize the difference between a genre and a real term and not. It's a complete mess that's just hard to discuss.

@ST63LTH A very strange statement for someone who lists Gate as one of his favorite anime.

yes, it is, straight harem (hetero including typical harem or reverse harem) is trash for sure.
but yuri harem is opposite :yep:

@DX_impulse I don't think I've seen a single example of a yuri harem.

@FanofAction
so what?
you don't see it doesn't mean it does not exist

@RobertBobert thanks for the investigation, I can enjoy the series without focus on its harem elements no?

@ST63LTH There's a difference between enjoying a show without a focus and enjoying a show in a genre that you call absolute garbage.

@RobertBobert I think you're taking it out of context; It became my favorite not because of it's harem theme. However, my opinion still stands regarding harem.