| Yes they're way different. I'd rather not go too deep on plot points due to spoilers, but HF is way darker than UBW. Worth watching for sure. |
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Koustubh said: Since I read the synopsis, I am thinking that this has the same story as UBW. Am I wrong? Please correct me if so. And also, If it's the same, is it worth watching?. TIA Well, first off, HF is closer to Zero than to either UBW or Fate in tone and theme. Archer and Rin are no longer main characters. HF focuses on Sakura (the main heroine), Ilya and Kirei. New antagonists. The Shirou of this route is way different than the one from the other 2 routes, although he starts out the same. |
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| It has the same characters of UBW, but HF puts the focus on different ones and the grail war ends up going very differently. It's an alternative/parallel world to UBW. |
| Hopefully its better, UBW was garbage |
Aardwolf94 said: i know you can come up with better bait than thisHopefully its better, UBW was garbage |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aure0lin said: Aardwolf94 said: i know you can come up with better bait than thisHopefully its better, UBW was garbage Its the truth, UBW was atrocious compared to F/Z. I have heard that HF is considered to be the best route and gives characters like Kirei and Illya spotlight + answers F/Z's questions, so I have hopes that it will be better. With a shitty MC like Shirou it won't be easy though but apparently he is different in this route as well. |
Aardwolf94 said: much better i give this one 8/10Aure0lin said: i know you can come up with better bait than this Its the truth, UBW was atrocious compared to F/Z. I have heard that HF is considered to be the best route and gives characters like Kirei and Illya spotlight + answers F/Z's questions, so I have hopes that it will be better. With a shitty MC like Shirou it won't be easy though but apparently he is different in this route as well. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
skyler114 said: Aardwolf94 said: Its the truth, UBW was atrocious compared to F/Z. I have heard that HF is considered to be the best route and gives characters like Kirei and Illya spotlight + answers F/Z's questions, so I have hopes that it will be better. With a shitty MC like Shirou it won't be easy though but apparently he is different in this route as well. "Shitty MC like Shirou." Now we definitely know he's baiting. He's an amazing MC, and while it's extremely hard to adapt his character they still did a pretty good job previously. Most people whine and bitch about him not being relatable but in the first two arcs that's the point that's being lost on you guys. I suppose in this one he'll be more to your taste since the relatability factor will be higher. Hopefully but for me he was just obnoxious in UBW, nothing really interesting about him. Kiritsugu was a much more interesting protagonist. |
Aardwolf94 said: Hopefully its better, UBW was garbage i could not agree more shirou was by far the worst protagonist i have ever seen |
| People calling Shirou a bad character, that's adorable. |
| I am the bone of my sword. My blood is Iron, and my heart is glass. I have overcome countless battlefields. Unaware of beginning, Nor aware of the end. The orphan is alone again, Striking diamond dust on a hill of swords. Yet, my flame never ends. My whole body was still "Unlimited Blade Works". -Emiya Shirou |
| Why so much hate on Shirou lol? Well his character depth will definitely be shown in these movies so I'm not really worried about him being a bad character. Also I guess I might be in considering him a good character because of my knowledge of him from the visual novel. |
Denevv said: Shirou is much more tolerable in the HF route. Omfg I was so very pleased that he wasn't annoying in HF. But that MF assassin is OP. Assassin largely relied on the shadow to get his victories. And people like you generally only find Shirou annoying because they can't understand the concept of someone doing self martydom for the sake of an ideal like Shirou generally does, they completely miss the point of that being why he is able to be an interesting character. The only reason you find Shirou in HF less annoying is because he is more relatable to you but relatability is not a metric to say a character is better or worse. |
Denevv said: Shirou is much more tolerable in the HF route. Omfg I was so very pleased that he wasn't annoying in HF. But that MF assassin is OP. Certainly seems to be true. He is still kind of meh but at least he isn't an obnoxious shit like in UBW (at least so far). Overall the difference OP is that this is already much better than UBW! |
Aardwolf94 said: Literally the same character so far.Denevv said: Shirou is much more tolerable in the HF route. Omfg I was so very pleased that he wasn't annoying in HF. But that MF assassin is OP. Certainly seems to be true. He is still kind of meh but at least he isn't an obnoxious shit like in UBW (at least so far). Overall the difference OP is that this is already much better than UBW! People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. |
ssjokg said: Water is wet.Aardwolf94 said: Literally the same character so far.Certainly seems to be true. He is still kind of meh but at least he isn't an obnoxious shit like in UBW (at least so far). Overall the difference OP is that this is already much better than UBW! People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. Same ideals, Kiritsugu is actually more naive (bruh totally this miracle actually works and will grant my wish so I will go after it), both are kind people at heart, both lost a lot and went through hell, the only real differences between them is Kiritsugu has blood on his hand oh also he's older so obviously he's more mature amirite, and Kiritsugu is a better mage (although we can blame Kiritsugu for not teaching Shirou proper magic, even if he did it out of concern). |
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Botato said: ssjokg said: Water is wet.Literally the same character so far. People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. Same ideals, Kiritsugu is actually more naive (bruh totally this miracle actually works and will grant my wish so I will go after it), both are kind people at heart, both lost a lot and went through hell, the only real differences between them is Kiritsugu has blood on his hand oh also he's older so obviously he's more mature amirite, and Kiritsugu is a better mage (although we can blame Kiritsugu for not teaching Shirou proper magic, even if he did it out of concern). He taught him wrong out of concern but as a result Shirou is one step from death every time he does his basic training. Not only more naive, Kerry is also the bigger idiot. |
| In his defense, he didn't realize Shirou would actually go ahead with that for so long :bloblul: I don't think anyone would have actually, unless they could understand Shirou just by looking at him. |
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Botato said: Well, if your kid is begging you to teach him something, especially magic, chances that it will focus on that are high.In his defense, he didn't realize Shirou would actually go ahead with that for so long :bloblul: I don't think anyone would have actually, unless they could understand Shirou just by looking at him. |
ssjokg said: Aardwolf94 said: Literally the same character so far.Certainly seems to be true. He is still kind of meh but at least he isn't an obnoxious shit like in UBW (at least so far). Overall the difference OP is that this is already much better than UBW! People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. Maybe its because its a movie so we don't get too much of Shirou's bullshit. The focus seems to be more on his relationship with Sakura which I like. Still Shirou is indeed still the weak link, the rest of HF is way more interesting than UBW though. And well Kiritsugu set the bar high, Shirou pales in comparison and is an obnoxious shit who pissed me off in UBW (and the original Deen anime). I mean you can't force people to like Shirou. I know some F/SN fans hate Kiritsugu for being an edgy unlikable dude but I don't really care. We already discussed this before and it got messy, best to stop before it happens again. |
Aardwolf94May 21, 2018 1:12 PM
Botato said: ssjokg said: Water is wet.Literally the same character so far. People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. Same ideals, Kiritsugu is actually more naive (bruh totally this miracle actually works and will grant my wish so I will go after it), both are kind people at heart, both lost a lot and went through hell, the only real differences between them is Kiritsugu has blood on his hand oh also he's older so obviously he's more mature amirite, and Kiritsugu is a better mage (although we can blame Kiritsugu for not teaching Shirou proper magic, even if he did it out of concern). Its a different kind of naive. Sure him believing that the grail would solve his problems was a bit naive but the mage families and other participants believe it too and it was a war that was already done a few times so obviously its not just about "nothing". No one saw the grail being corrupted coming, bashing Kiritsugu for this is silly. Not to mention he is just way more interesting. There are already plenty of generic "nice guys" protagonists in anime who preach their bullshit all the time (despite not facing any real challenges, Shirou never had to make a hard choice like Kiritsugu so saying that he will become a hero of justice and save everyone is just dumb as fuck). Kiritsugu was more morally ambigious (as you said he has blood on his hands) which made him more compelling to me. Him being an adult is also refreshing, sick of 90% of anime having high school/in general teenagers as protagonist. And that he is a more capable and efficient guy is also more original than Shirou's typical rookie shit. |
Aardwolf94 said: Actually the families that started it don't want the miracle, they want the Third Magic and some just simply want to see the ritual completed. Not bashing Kiritsugu for not knowing it was corrupted. Rin and Shirou didn't know either. The point is they didn't fall for something so absurdly convenient.Botato said: Water is wet. Same ideals, Kiritsugu is actually more naive (bruh totally this miracle actually works and will grant my wish so I will go after it), both are kind people at heart, both lost a lot and went through hell, the only real differences between them is Kiritsugu has blood on his hand oh also he's older so obviously he's more mature amirite, and Kiritsugu is a better mage (although we can blame Kiritsugu for not teaching Shirou proper magic, even if he did it out of concern). Its a different kind of naive. Sure him believing that the grail would solve his problems was a bit naive but the mage families and other participants believe it too and it was a war that was already done a few times so obviously its not just about "nothing". No one saw the grail being corrupted coming, bashing Kiritsugu for this is silly. Not to mention he is just way more interesting. There are already plenty of generic "nice guys" protagonists in anime who preach their bullshit all the time. Kiritsugu was more morally ambigious (as you said he has blood on his hands) which made him more compelling to me. Him being an adult is also refreshing, sick of 90% of anime having high school/in general teenagers as protagonist. And that he is a more capable and efficient guy is also more original than Shirou's typical rookie shit. Kiritsugu wasn't morally ambiguous. Like at all. He wants to save people. Simple as that. Circumstances led him to believe it is impossible with his own power so he made a compromise. Shirou too understands it is impossible, hell that's the whole point of Fate and UBW routes. The reason he still pursues an unreachable utopia isn't because he wants to be a nice guy, it's the only way he can still live. I am curious, what about the age difference made him so refreshing? Replace him with someone half his age and literally nothing would change. Some people make the argument that it's easier to swallow older characters talking about morality or serious matters in general, but really that's just preference :thinking: Shirou is only a rookie at magic. Which wasn't even his biggest issue considering Servants usually do most of the heavy lifting. |
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Botato said: Aardwolf94 said: Actually the families that started it don't want the miracle, they want the Third Magic and some just simply want to see the ritual completed. Not bashing Kiritsugu for not knowing it was corrupted. Rin and Shirou didn't know either. The point is they didn't fall for something so absurdly convenient.Its a different kind of naive. Sure him believing that the grail would solve his problems was a bit naive but the mage families and other participants believe it too and it was a war that was already done a few times so obviously its not just about "nothing". No one saw the grail being corrupted coming, bashing Kiritsugu for this is silly. Not to mention he is just way more interesting. There are already plenty of generic "nice guys" protagonists in anime who preach their bullshit all the time. Kiritsugu was more morally ambigious (as you said he has blood on his hands) which made him more compelling to me. Him being an adult is also refreshing, sick of 90% of anime having high school/in general teenagers as protagonist. And that he is a more capable and efficient guy is also more original than Shirou's typical rookie shit. Kiritsugu wasn't morally ambiguous. Like at all. He wants to save people. Simple as that. Circumstances led him to believe it is impossible with his own power so he made a compromise. Shirou too understands it is impossible, hell that's the whole point if Fate and UBW routes. The reason he still pursues an unreachable utopia isn't because he wants to be a nice guy, it's the only way he can still live. I am curious, what about the age difference made him so refreshing? Replace him with someone half his age and literally nothing would change. Some people make the argument that it's easier to swallow older characters talking about morality or serious matters in general, but really that's just preference :thinking: Shirou is only a rookie at magic. Which wasn't even his biggest issue considering Servants usually do most of the heavy lifting. Was that said in F/Z? Been some time since I watched it, I do remember Tohsaka saying something about reaching the Root, is that what happens when you complete the ritual (if the grail wasn't corrupt)? He is very morally ambigious. Just because he has a noble motivation doesn't really take away from the fact that he is fine with sacrificing the minority to save the majority. I mean he was fine with kids being slaughtered by Caster to achieve his objective...dude is no hero. Yet he still pursues it which is dumb as hell..unlike Kiritsugu who actually understood that you cant save everyone. The main problem with his character in Fate (have only seen the deen anime here) and UBW is that he never had to make hard choices so its easy for him to say that he will save everyone and be a typical hero of justice. Look at Kiritsugu. He hesitated to kill his best friend (and tried to save her) and the whole island was turned into zombies as a result. So he killed his father so that nothing like that happens again. Or the choice between Natalia and the zombies on the plane potentially rampaging in the city and he again had to make the hard choice. Shirou faces nothing like it so he is basically stuck in Kiritsugu's pre shirley incident mindset, naive and dumb. I cant take him seriously. Well first of having a capable adult protagonist is rare in anime, most just have the typical generic high school protagonists/teenagers. So its refreshing to have variety. And yes it does add to the grail war atmosphere when you have adults fighting and dumb kids who go to school and dates while a war is going on He is a rookie at everything..he doesn't know shit about the war, how to handle a servant and of course magic. Thats more generic (most anime start like that) than having a prepared protagonist. |
Aardwolf94 said: ssjokg said: Literally the same character so far. People really do dislike Shirou just for being NOT Kiritsugu. Maybe its because its a movie so we don't get too much of Shirou's bullshit. The focus seems to be more on his relationship with Sakura which I like. Still Shirou is indeed still the weak link, the rest of HF is way more interesting than UBW though. And well Kiritsugu set the bar high, Shirou pales in comparison and is an obnoxious shit who pissed me off in UBW (and the original Deen anime). I mean you can't force people to like Shirou. I know some F/SN fans hate Kiritsugu for being an edgy unlikable dude but I don't really care. We got "Shirou's bullisht" tho.Again and again. Also him disagreeing with people tha are clearly wrong doesn't make him obnoxious. No FSN fan hates Kiritsugu.What we hate is seeing people calling him agreat character when he is exactly what you say Shirou is. Kiritsugu is that obnoxious man child of FZ, that disagrees with everyone, his wife, his Servant, his teacher, his self, his past. Everyone, including the story repeatedly tells him how wrong he is about his methods, his way of living and even his wish. What does he do?Keeps ups the same shit till fate smacks him in the face. It isnt Kiritusgu's fault that fans are angry.It is every edgy fan that thinks he is a good character because he pulls the trigger with a half backed justification escaping his mouth every time someone disagrees with him. Kerry is so many years older than SHirou and yet he acts WAY more childish than Shirou ever did in either of the 3 routes.In fact Shirou's most childish is actually Archer himself when he denies his dream and tries to beat his younger self just to vent a bit.The boy Shirou isnt childish at all. >Sure him believing that the grail would solve his problems was a bit naive but the mage families and other participants believe it too Nope.The only ones that want a wish from it are him and Saber.Everyone else is in it for the true purpose behind the ritual or fame. >a war that was already done a few times so obviously its not just about "nothing". A war that never saw a winner. >No one saw the grail being corrupted coming, bashing Kiritsugu for this is silly. The family that made him a Master is responsible for it and they KNOW. Also Zouken realized that and he was the only one to think of NOT fighting in the 4th war.. >Not to mention he is just way more interesting. There are already plenty of generic "nice guys" protagonists in anime who preach their bullshit all the time. Kiritsugu is the Nice guy that preaches ALL the time about why he has to kill everyone in his way. It is just as obnoxious. >despite not facing any real challenges, Shirou never had to make a hard choice like Kiritsugu so saying that he will become a hero of justice and save everyone is just dumb as fuck UBW isnt about that.And you clearly missed the part where they explain why Shirou is like this. > Kiritsugu was more morally ambigious He was a child.With a gun.That is all. >Him being an adult is also refreshing, sick of 90% of anime having high school/in general teenagers as protagonist. And that he is a more capable and efficient guy is also more original than Shirou's typical rookie shit. Oh this means nothing when we talk about how smart or naiv they are. Btw, how did it work out for the "more capable and efficient guy"? |
| Shirou says multiple times in UBW that he knows he cant save everyone. Literally everyone:"Shirou is an idiot for thinking he can save everyone." Man, you people make Shinji look like Einstein. No nothing from those was in FZ.You know why?Because it is in HF.Congratulations now you know that you watched a show that makes no sense without the original 3 routes. But it has adults so it is well written. Kiritusgu was so prepared that he did everything he could to damage the relationship with his Servant, and endanger his chances at winning. Such a brilliant man. |
Aardwolf94 said: Yes, that's the intention. Botato said: Actually the families that started it don't want the miracle, they want the Third Magic and some just simply want to see the ritual completed. Not bashing Kiritsugu for not knowing it was corrupted. Rin and Shirou didn't know either. The point is they didn't fall for something so absurdly convenient. Kiritsugu wasn't morally ambiguous. Like at all. He wants to save people. Simple as that. Circumstances led him to believe it is impossible with his own power so he made a compromise. Shirou too understands it is impossible, hell that's the whole point if Fate and UBW routes. The reason he still pursues an unreachable utopia isn't because he wants to be a nice guy, it's the only way he can still live. I am curious, what about the age difference made him so refreshing? Replace him with someone half his age and literally nothing would change. Some people make the argument that it's easier to swallow older characters talking about morality or serious matters in general, but really that's just preference :thinking: Shirou is only a rookie at magic. Which wasn't even his biggest issue considering Servants usually do most of the heavy lifting. Was that said in F/Z? Been some time since I watched it, I do remember Tohsaka saying something about reaching the Root, is that what happens when you complete the ritual (if the grail wasn't corrupt)? He is very morally ambigious. Just because he has a noble motivation doesn't really take away from the fact that he is fine with sacrificing the minority to save the majority. I mean he was fine with kids being slaughtered by Caster to achieve his objective...dude is no hero. Yes that's the compromise he is making. He wasn't fine with it, he didn't find a good enough method to save them and still beat Caster at the same time. And all of it was going to be meaningless in the end (in his head anyway) once he brings salvation to the world.Yet he still pursues it which is dumb as hell..unlike Kiritsugu who actually understood that you cant save everyone. Right, that is why he believed in a miracle while Shirou didn't. The reason people say Kiritsugu is more naive is this. He believed it is not possible with his own power, but it is possible with a miracle. Shirou didn't.The main problem with his character in Fate (have only seen the deen anime here) and UBW is that he never had to make hard choices so its easy for him to say that he will save everyone and be a typical hero of justice. Bruh....So what is essentially his big sister and last traces of a functional family being taken hostage by Caster and used as a bargaining chip in exchange for his only chance to (potentially) prevent a disaster like the one that robbed him of everything, even his sense of self, is not making a hard choice? I mean all that aside, what even is Archer. Isn't he the result of making hard choices time and time again? Again Shirou doesn't do this because he wants to be a nice guy. And it being "easy to say" isn't even relevant, I think. Dude's fucked in the head, in a similar but opposite way from Kirei, that's why he saves (or tries to anyway) others. Look at Kiritsugu. He hesitated to kill his best friend (and tried to save her) and the whole island was turned into zombies as a result. Or the choice between Natalia and the zombies on the plane potentially rampaging in the city and he again had to make the hard choice. Yeah Shirou picked Taiga over Saber and risked Caster winning the HGW and blowing up all of Fuyuki a 2nd time, or whatever evil thing Caster had in mind because as far as he knew she was a horrible person.Shirou faces nothing like it so he is basically stuck in Kiritsugu's pre shirley incident mindset, naive and dumb. And he is older than Kiritsugu back then as well lol Actually Shirou is post Shirley Kiritsugu mindset because he understands his dream is just an Ideal. He already went through hell once and abandoned dying people begging him for help when he could still move in the fire 10 years prior. Yeah, surprise surprise Shirou had an edgy backstory too.Well first of having a capable adult protagonist is rare in anime, most just have the typical generic high school protagonists/teenagers. So its refreshing to have variety. And yes it does add to the grail war atmosphere when you have adults fighting and dumb kids who go to school and dates while a war is going on > Rare in anime Would be a good point if you explained why this is automatically a merit or an auto win card. Variety is good indeed, but the execution matters too. Otherwise fiction would have become dull a millennium ago. > Dates I mean, I like how you conveniently left out Irisviel and Saber having a "date" in the first few days of the war, with Iri even "playing" with her favorite toy, the car Kiritsugu bought her. Or pretty much every scene involving Rider and Waver, or is comedy and fluff only okay in FZ? Also there's a reason they could do all that. They did it in broad daylight. HGW stuff happens in the night, because lel sekrit magic. He is a rookie at everything..he doesn't know shit about the war, how to handle a servant and of course magic. Thats more generic than having a prepared protagonist. That all falls under one category imo but fair enough. Although I would argue he did better than Waver for a supposed noob, except at the end where Waver did the sensible thing and backed off. |
BotatoMay 21, 2018 1:51 PM
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| @ssjokg It sure does feel like you hate Kiritsugu (and F/Z) lol, almost as much as I hate Shirou and F/SN. Why are you getting so worked up anyway? What are you even talking about? No one tells him he is wrong until Saber. He isn't really challenged at all by anyone in his enviroment (certainly not his wife or student). And yes at the end he was wrong to follow that way as the grail showed him but that doesn't make him somehow dumb. It makes him a tragic and compelling character. It made sense that he believed in his ruthless way, considering what happened before when he was too weak (didn't kill Shirley so everyone on his island died). He is a good character because he has an interesting flawed personality, a tragic backstory, is morally ambigious etc. all that is much better than another generic nice guy. Shirou is much more childish than Kerry, he just took his father's ideals and preaches his hero of justice bs even though he was never really challenged. Even if he thinks he cant save everyone, he follows his unrealistic ideals which is silly. He is never forced into a position where he actually has to make a difficult choice and cant save everyone, nope instead everything goes smoothly for that shit (unlike Kiritsugu who had to suffer for his flawed ideals) so he can keep believing his bullshit and we get cheesy happy endings. UBW (and Fate) lack impact here and don't feel very believable. Kiritsugu is anything but a nice guy..he is a ruthless killer who sacrificed many to safe the majority. Thats not heroic. It didn't go well for him because F/Z was actually more realistic and not some safe Shounen bullshit where everything goes perfectly for the MC and the "good" guys and there are no consequences whatsoever. But like I said before, you love to dumb down F/Z and its characters just because people prefer them over F/SN. We already discussed this before and it went nowhere, lets move on. F/Z made plenty of sense without F/SN and I'm glad I watched it first since otherwise I would have been spoiled on the best part of this franchise. |
Aardwolf94May 21, 2018 1:56 PM
| @Aardwolf94 >It sure does feel like you hate Kiritsugu (and F/Z) lol. Why are you getting so worked up anyway? Sigh >What are you even talking about? No one tells him he is wrong until Saber. He isn't really challenged at all by anyone in his enviroment (certainly not his wife or student). Yes in S1.And Iri isnt ok with letting the kids die either. Iri also tells him to talk himself to Saber which he doesnt, because "lol tools". >And yes at the end he was wrong to follow that way as the grail showed him but that doesn't make him somehow dumb. It makes him a tragic and compelling character. It is dumb because he KNEW it is dumb.It is dumb because he ignored logical thinking and went for the miracle.Someting Shirou didnt do. >It made sense that he believed in his ruthless way, considering what happened before when he was too weak (didn't kill Shirley so everyone on his island died). Killing a cripple who cant do shit anymore is being edgy, not ruthless.No matter how he tries to justify it, Kayneth couldnt do shit anymore. >He is a good character because he has an interesting flawed personality, a tragic backstory, is morally ambigious etc. all that is much better than another generic nice guy. Congrats that is SHirou you described. >Shirou is much more childish than Kerry, he just took his father's ideals like a dumb kid. At least he got them for someone that showed him a heroci act.Kerry was dumb in the head.Nothing in his environment was a good enough reason to trigger th e"heroic" deed of killing his father.He just ddd it. >Even if he thinks he cant save everyone, he follows them which is silly. He is never forced into a position where he actually has to make a difficult choice and cant save everyone, nope instead everything goes smoothly for that shit (unlike Kiritsugu who had to suffer for his flawed ideals) so he can keep believing his bullshit and we get cheesy happy endings. UBW (and Fate) lack impact here and don't feel very believable. One second please.So because he cant achieve the dream, he shouldnt try at all? Iskanadr wants to have a word with you. Caster kidnapping his sister.Him letting people die in teh fire.Botato already covered that so... >Kiritsugu is anything but a nice guy..he is a ruthless killer who sacrificed many to safe the majority. Thats not heroic Yes because he "doesnt want anyone to cry" Dude literally wanted to create heaven on earth because he cant stand watching people suffer. >But like I said before, you love to dumb down F/Z and its characters just because people prefer them over F/SN. We> already discussed this before and it went nowhere, lets move on. Sigh >F/Z made plenty of sense without F/SN and I'm glad I watched it first since otherwise I would have been spoiled on the best part of this franchise. It made plenty of sense but you barely know any of the characters and the setting itself?Makes sense. |
| >It didn't go well for him because F/Z was actually more realistic and not some safe Shounen bullshit where everything goes perfectly for the MC and the "good" guys and there are no consequences whatsoever. It didnt go well for him because he tried to complete the ritual, alienated his Servant and believed in a fairytale ad. Shirou won because he was trying to stop the war from day 1 since he had the common sense to not believe magical telemarketing levels of bullshit, because he made allies and because he wasnt an ass to his Servant. Is it Shounen bullshit that Shirou did the logical thing or is it good writing that Kerry did everything wrong? Ilya is still dead or dies shortly after, Saber doesnt get her wish and Shirou will never achieve his dream. Which part of that is happy when taking into account the context and themes ? |
| i read the wikia summary spoilers and ye this route/story is different and makes me think it is more connected to Fate/Zero if you watch that one because some of the main villains on Fate/Zero are shown here on Heavens Feel and they play a big role |
deg said: No it isnt. For every plot point that connects HF to FZ, UBW and Fate have just as many.i read the wikia summary spoilers and ye this route/story is different and makes me think it is more connected to Fate/Zero if you watch that one because some of the main villains on Fate/Zero are shown here on Heavens Feel and they play a big role |
Botato said: Aardwolf94 said: Yes, that's the intention. Was that said in F/Z? Been some time since I watched it, I do remember Tohsaka saying something about reaching the Root, is that what happens when you complete the ritual (if the grail wasn't corrupt)? He is very morally ambigious. Just because he has a noble motivation doesn't really take away from the fact that he is fine with sacrificing the minority to save the majority. I mean he was fine with kids being slaughtered by Caster to achieve his objective...dude is no hero. Yes that's the compromise he is making. He wasn't fine with it, he didn't find a good enough method to save them and still beat Caster at the same time. And all of it was going to be meaningless in the end (in his head anyway) once he brings salvation to the world.Yet he still pursues it which is dumb as hell..unlike Kiritsugu who actually understood that you cant save everyone. Right, that is why he believed in a miracle while Shirou didn't. The reason people say Kiritsugu is more naive is this. He believed it is not possible with his own power, but it is possible with a miracle. Shirou didn't.The main problem with his character in Fate (have only seen the deen anime here) and UBW is that he never had to make hard choices so its easy for him to say that he will save everyone and be a typical hero of justice. Bruh....So what is essentially his big sister and last traces of a functional family being taken hostage by Caster and used as a bargaining chip in exchange for his only chance to (potentially) prevent a disaster like the one that robbed him of everything, even his sense of self, is not making a hard choice? I mean all that aside, what even is Archer. Isn't he the result of making hard choices time and time again? Again Shirou doesn't do this because he wants to be a nice guy. And it being "easy to say" isn't even relevant, I think. Dude's fucked in the head, in a similar but opposite way from Kirei, that's why he saves (or tries to anyway) others. Look at Kiritsugu. He hesitated to kill his best friend (and tried to save her) and the whole island was turned into zombies as a result. Or the choice between Natalia and the zombies on the plane potentially rampaging in the city and he again had to make the hard choice. Yeah Shirou picked Taiga over Saber and risked Caster winning the HGW and blowing up all of Fuyuki a 2nd time, or whatever evil thing Caster had in mind because as far as he knew she was a horrible person.Shirou faces nothing like it so he is basically stuck in Kiritsugu's pre shirley incident mindset, naive and dumb. And he is older than Kiritsugu back then as well lol Actually Shirou is post Shirley Kiritsugu mindset because he understands his dream is just an Ideal. He already went through hell once and abandoned dying people begging him for help when he could still move in the fire 10 years prior. Yeah, surprise surprise Shirou had an edgy backstory too.Well first of having a capable adult protagonist is rare in anime, most just have the typical generic high school protagonists/teenagers. So its refreshing to have variety. And yes it does add to the grail war atmosphere when you have adults fighting and dumb kids who go to school and dates while a war is going on > Rare in anime Would be a good point if you explained why this is automatically a merit or an auto win card. Variety is good indeed, but the execution matters too. Otherwise fiction would have become dull a millennium ago. > Dates I mean, I like how you conveniently left out Irisviel and Saber having a "date" in the first few days of the war, with Iri even "playing" with her favorite toy, the car Kiritsugu bought her. Or pretty much every scene involving Rider and Waver, or is comedy and fluff only okay in FZ? Also there's a reason they could do all that. They did it in broad daylight. HGW stuff happens in the night, because lel sekrit magic. He is a rookie at everything..he doesn't know shit about the war, how to handle a servant and of course magic. Thats more generic than having a prepared protagonist. That all falls under one category imo but fair enough. Although I would argue he did better than Waver for a supposed noob, except at the end where Waver did the sensible thing and backed off.Yeah but making a compromise like that already makes him morally ambigious. An actual "good" guy wouldn't do that. Of course he didn't like sacrificing the children but if he did that would put him in the villian category and he wouldn't be a anti hero anymore. Like I said it was naive to believe in that miracle but its not like just thought it would happen with no effort. Its a miracle he had to work for and that was possible via lots of magic. Still a bit naive though but I think Shirou's "I'll save everyone" bs is worse. That could have been a hard choice but there were no real consequences for that so it ends up being there for fake tension. At the end Saber was fine, no disaster of any sort happened, he saved the world, got the girl and worst of all still kept believing in his bullshit ideals (and poor Archer was shown as the dude who was wrong..lol). In comparison Kiritsugu not killing Shirley leads to everyone dying on his island and if he didn't destroy the plane (and as a result killing his mother figure) plenty of innocents would have died as well. Then at the end he is punished hard for having flawed ideals (even though they were more realistic than Shirou's). Shirou has it easy really, dude didn't have to suffer any consequences whatsoever. Well Archer is a different version of Shirou, I don't really count him to the same character. This argument wouldn't work there because that dude has already suffered enough and made many hard choices. Well it has merit because after seeing the same old shit dozens & dozens of times you get sick of it. Getting something more original is automatically more interesting to me. And in comparison with F/Z, UBW/Fate were definitely more generic. And of course the execution is important but I think F/Z was pretty well done. I think it was better handled in F/Z. Saber and Iriesviel despite having fun were still staying on guard and immediately noticed when something was going on nearby. Waver went with Rider shopping once but it was more because he wanted to learn more about his backstory. In comparison we already have these silly high school kids treating the war like a joke by going to high school and then suddenly they go on a date to and Caster takes advantage of it and they lose. So they kind of look dumber. Well he conveniently had Avalon, thats the only reason he survived for so long. Shirou acted dumb plenty of times and was "almost" killed a few times. |
| Sorry if i'm late, but basically this one has tits. like big tits. |
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Aardwolf94 said: He is a good character because he has an interesting flawed personality, a tragic backstory, is morally ambigious etc. all that is much better than another generic nice guy. You're literally describing Shirou there, to be fair. F/SN (the VN anyway) tells you that Shirou is the embodiment of heroism, then turns to you to say that Shirou is mentally ill, due to the fire psychologically killing him, with no moral compass or true sense of what's right or wrong. That's the interesting part of F/SN that F/Z never taps on. F/SN tells you to your face that heroism is a mental illness and normal people cannot and would not be heroes, no matter how hard they try. They're either flat out villains with good intentions (Kirtusugu explored in HF as a foil to Shirou) or "heroic" mentally ill people who ARE villains, they just don't realize it (the Shirou Man of Steel bad ending in HF). How's that for flawed personality, tragic backstory, and moral ambiguity? Shirou is FAR from being "another generic nice guy". He's a sociopath. |
astroprogsMay 21, 2018 2:19 PM
| >and poor Archer was shown as the dude who was wrong..lol). "I never believed in saving everyone.And I didnt, i saved only those I could, and i am mad now" Do you need to be a lot clever to realize that Archer isnt thinking straight? Justifying FZ's fluffy scenes and calling FSN's bs is the epitome of stupidity.In both they happen for the same reasons. But FSN is stupid for doing so.Good day sir. |
astroprogs said: Aardwolf94 said: He is a good character because he has an interesting flawed personality, a tragic backstory, is morally ambigious etc. all that is much better than another generic nice guy. You're literally describing Shirou there, to be fair. F/SN (the VN anyway) tells you that Shirou is the embodiment of heroism, then turns to you to say that Shirou is mentally ill, due to the fire psychologically killing him, with no moral compass or true sense of what's right or wrong. That's the interesting part of F/SN that F/Z never taps on. F/SN tells you to your face that heroism is a mental illness and normal people cannot and would not be heroes, no matter how hard they try. They're either flat out villains with good intentions (Kirtusugu explored in HF as a foil to Shirou) or "heroic" mentally ill people who ARE villains, they just don't realize it (the Shirou Man of Steel bad ending in HF). How's that for flawed personality, tragic backstory, and moral ambiguity? Shirou is FAR from being "another generic nice guy". He's a sociopath. Well that does sound interesting but I would say its not explored enough in the anime I have watched (Deen's Fate and UBW). His backstory should make Shirou not a generic nice guy but his personality and actions feel exactly like that to me. Not to mention the overall ending to both anime & his arcs was just a typical cheesy happy ending with the bad guys defeated, strong focus on romance and Shirou still believing in his stupid ideals. He didnt suffer any consequences whatsoever and didn't face any hard choices. Also how does he have no moral compass when he wants to save everyone and is 100% nice all the time? I think the execution is lacking with his character. Just saw that spoiler..wtf. Can't believe Shirou would do that..but its just a bad ending right? So its not really how the story goes and only happens when you fuck up. Still that actually sounds interesting. |
Aardwolf94May 21, 2018 2:29 PM
| If you save others just because you want to smile while saving others doesnt make you a good person.This is why Kiritsugu is a nice guy and Shirou isnt. |
Aardwolf94 said: astroprogs said: You're literally describing Shirou there, to be fair. F/SN (the VN anyway) tells you that Shirou is the embodiment of heroism, then turns to you to say that Shirou is mentally ill, due to the fire psychologically killing him, with no moral compass or true sense of what's right or wrong. That's the interesting part of F/SN that F/Z never taps on. F/SN tells you to your face that heroism is a mental illness and normal people cannot and would not be heroes, no matter how hard they try. They're either flat out villains with good intentions (Kirtusugu explored in HF as a foil to Shirou) or "heroic" mentally ill people who ARE villains, they just don't realize it (the Shirou Man of Steel bad ending in HF). How's that for flawed personality, tragic backstory, and moral ambiguity? Shirou is FAR from being "another generic nice guy". He's a sociopath. Well that does sound interesting but I would say its not explored enough in the anime I have watched (Deen's Fate and UBW). His backstory should make Shirou not a generic nice guy but his personality and actions feel exactly like that to me. Not to mention the overall ending to both anime & his arcs was just a typical cheesy happy ending with the bad guys defeated, strong focus on romance and Shirou still believing in his stupid ideals. He didnt suffer any consequences whatsoever and didn't face any hard choices. Also how does he have no moral compass when he wants to save everyone and is 100% nice all the time? I think the execution is lacking with his character. Just saw that spoiler..wtf. Can't believe Shirou would do that..but its just a bad ending right? So its not really how the story goes and only happens when you fuck up. Still that actually sounds interesting. The ending aren't as well and good as you think. Fate: The love of his life is gone. Sakura is still... you know,'till the 6th war in another 10 years. UBW: His sister dies without him even knowing of her existence. Sakura is... you know the drill. HF: ...well, you'll see. As for consequences, the VN has 42 bad endings. Shirou dies in ways that make the most gruesome deaths in Zero look merciful. The anime is the "best case scenario" of the events where the minimal amount of things go wrong. There's no "if you fuck up" in F/SN. All bad ending are canon. That ending is as canon as the UBW ending you saw in the anime. That's what I'm saying. You don't see him doing this because you don't understand his character. He seems nice and wants to save everyone because he thinks that this is how he can be happy "because Kiritsugu was happy doing it, so it must be the right thing to do". He turns on a dime when "the right thing" becomes doing something else to him. Kiritsugu smiles because it's the nice thing to do. Shirou smiles like a machine because "that's what heroes of justice do, right? so if I do like them, my life will have a worth and I should feel happy too like kiritsugu did, right". He has no concept of what's good or bad. As I said, he's a sociopath who fakes emotions. He's hollow inside. Did you know that Shirou calmly attempts to snuff the life out of Shinji in the Fate route by choking him whe he seemed to resist his orders? |
astroprogsMay 21, 2018 3:00 PM
astroprogs said: Deen actually included that in the anime.Did you know that Shirou calmly attempts to snuff the life out of Shinji in the Fate route by choking him whe he seemed to resist his orders? |
ssjokg said: astroprogs said: Deen actually included that in the anime.Did you know that Shirou calmly attempts to snuff the life out of Shinji in the Fate route by choking him whe he seemed to resist his orders? Yep. https://youtu.be/GNzZiFqPL48?t=9m56s Also, infinitely better than Bryce Papenbrook. |
| @Aardwolf94 BTW you should really watch the Oath Under the Snow movie. It explores Shirou's character the closest to the VN and what he actually is like. Oath Under the Snow's atmosphere is like HF and Zero in a blender (look at the rating). It has no fanservice and is 100% serious. For me, it's pretty much the best Fate adaptation since Zero. |
| I haven't finished reading your post, don't plan on responding to all of it anyway because it's 2 AM rn and I'm tired af. But really, if we're still talking about this then we're just going around in circles and there's literally no reason to bother going forward. What the fuck was Kiritsugu's wish again? Wait, could it actually be.... Hold on, was it... "I'll save everyone" OMG. What a shocking twist. |
|
| >Him being an adult is also refreshing, sick of 90% of anime having high school/in general teenagers as protagonist. And that he is a more capable and efficient guy is also more original than Shirou's typical rookie shit. :bloblul: off topic, but i found this to be hilarious >90% of anime >let's use this season as example, there's about 50, so we jsut need 6 anime to disprove either both or one of the point adult mc just in this season >s;g >megalo box >hinamatsuri >wotakoi >lupin >tg:re(yes it counts) >hoozuki >LoTGH >golden kamuy >hiso maso that is probably enuf, if you just count competent mc, there's also probably more back to fate/zero now for a min, if he was truly an adult, he wouldnt believe in something that no sane adult or even high schooler would believe in, if he was sane, he's still an idiot, if he was mature, he wouldn't break the grail and not realise that was also a bad idea also, shiro was only a rookie because no one thought him anything, about the war, at all even kirei just barely explained shit to him, no shit someone who hasnt fought his whole life is a rookie, also lastly, :bloblul: nothing kerry does, in f/z is morally ambigous, at all, the ones that would arguably count like kayneth's bs is just pure edgy stuff |
| So embarrased with Tensura fans and the fandom, how have we degraded |
Botato said: I haven't finished reading your post, don't plan on responding to all of it anyway because it's 2 AM rn and I'm tired af. But really, if we're still talking about this then we're just going around in circles and there's literally no reason to bother going forward. What the fuck was Kiritsugu's wish again? Wait, could it actually be.... Hold on, was it... "I'll save everyone" OMG. What a shocking twist. have a chill pill brah, tf are you expecting from lesser secondaries |
| So embarrased with Tensura fans and the fandom, how have we degraded |
| So that means no more: people die if they are killed sentence. |
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