So why people consider Fate/Zero as the real Fate serie and other works beside that a fail of the franchise?
| Is Zero actually the realistic essence of the franchise created by Nasu? Or is this somehow fanboyism because they got so attached to the "dark" and "deep" elements of the writing? Or am I missing something else? I mean, yes I did enjoyed Zero and consider it a great Fate work. But I consider it an extension of the fate series and not the main core of it. And no, I'm not defending any inconsistency of Apocrypha writing or any other mistake. I'm always neutral about a work until I actually finish reading it. I'm making this thread because it confuses me every time I see someone criticizing Apocrypha using Zero as a main source of comparison and not FSN/UBW? ( You can even see it reading the top reviews ). |
| Oh and sorry if I had any writing mistake, my main language is not English. |
| Don't know. Zero is an extension aimed at explaining some of the pending questions of the main game(stay night, UBW, HF) imo. . I wouldn't consider it, and don't see why it would be the core of the series as it is not even written by the original author. I think it's just unfortunate for some people to start the franchise with Zero, probably creating a gap between their expectations and what the main series is like |
rahillimitciAug 29, 2017 11:18 AM
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| Zero has the most interesting cast by far, both servants, masters and even the supporting cast. It has also lots of those dark and/or edgy moments, which work in favor of the narrative. It's a nihilistic view of what conflicts are. I actually think that as long as Ufotable is involved, they have the potential to make anything Fate related great. Deen and A-1 are really the worst choices one could make for this series... |
CondemneDio said: Zero has the most interesting cast by far, both servants, masters and even the supporting cast.. That's quite subjective though, I know a lot of people who try hard to get into the series because they liked some fight clips or designs but just couldn't make it past the first few episodes of Fate/Zero due to lack of interest in the cast. Some people are drawn in solely because of some of their favorite mythological heroes being featured, and couldn't care less about the masters. Different people have different preferences. However, Zero is treated as part of the main series because it's a canon part of the main timeline occuring before Fate/Stay Night. Its events form the backstory of all the main routes. All the other spin-offs are "what-if" stories taking the concepts of the series and doing their own thing, and are thus not part of the same canon. |
CondemneDio said: It has also lots of those dark and/or edgy moments, which work in favor of the narrative. It's a nihilistic view of what conflicts are. That's the actual problem I found about using Zero as a main source of criticizing other fate series. Because it's far from the main source ¿writing style? and people who start with Zero get a different idea of what the franchise is. Of course you can have high expectations of fate even just reading the synopsis but it's far different from having Zero as the main idea. With FSN routes You start with a semi slice of life - seinen series which can change from very serious moments to relaxing moments. But with Zero you start with a non stop nihilistic atmosphere - seinen with 0 slice of life elements. The last one being the most different from Fate pace. And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Zero can't be the top Fate series, but is not the main core and can't be taken as a criticism system for other fate parts considering the big difference gap between main FSN routes and Zero |
Moekou said: However, Zero is treated as part of the main series because it's a canon part of the main timeline occuring before Fate/Stay Night. But isn't Zero just a "what if" itself? Isn't just a way to give an idea to the spectator of how the events before FSN might have happened? Didn't F/SN also explained a bit of what events occurred before it? Of course, no one is saying F/Z is not canon. The problem here is using it as the main criticism system for other fate series. |
VeromayeAug 29, 2017 11:51 AM
Veromaye said: Moekou said: However, Zero is treated as part of the main series because it's a canon part of the main timeline occuring before Fate/Stay Night. But isn't Zero just an "what if" itself? Isn't just a way to give an idea to the spectator of how the events before FSN might have happened? Didn't F/SN also explained a bit of what events occurred before it? Of course, no one is saying F/Z is not canon. The problem here is using it as the main criticism system for other fate series. No, I think it is canon as the vast majority of the information comes from either FSN or spinoff materials and notes. Of course, it does cause an issue of viewers complaining "we already know this" when exposition about the same information occurs in FSN even though this is where it originated. Sadly a lot of FZ viewers aren't aware of it and see Fate/Zero as "the original" and credit it for things Nasu actually came up with. If I recall correctly, Maiya was the only original character Urobuchi created for Fate/Zero. |
| @Moekou Absolutely so. I think it was unnecessary to add to my point, but I find them, personally, easily the most fascinating. Might have something to do with the masters being actual adults *shrug* One point worth noting about the Servants in Zero is that they are all, although clad in glamorous tales, real historical people. Unlike how Apocrypha almost makes it a point to include as little an amount of real people as possible. @Veromaye I really do not care as much about what a franchise is about, and more about the quality of each and every part on their own merits. It just so happens to be that Ufotable nailed the adaptations of UBW and Zero. The original Stay Night anime is a horror I'd like to forget I watched. |
| fate, UBW and HF are the core of the Fate series and that's it. Zero is a great addition and helps explain things a bit and can be watched independently. Zero however is not the core. Just something you should watch regardless. Fate/prototype is cool, and in fact I like those character designs more than the core trio as they are a bit more historically accurate. Still a stretch but no tight blue jumpsuit :P Strange fake is also really good. Apocrypha done right. I mean, you have a grail that can grant any wish. The other fate works feel so small scale in the war for something so significant. So strange fake introducing all these top tier servants and government intervention. It feels a lot more significant and rightfully so. The grail should be something you go nuclear war for and strange fake really handled that quite well with Gil, Enkidu, pale rider, the military and police force. Everything else.... Meh. Its good but as newer fate stuff get released the less I'm enamored about it. At some point they aren't even trying with some of the character design. TBH I think FGO is sort of killing the series by introducing so much fanservice characters and at some point isn't even finding excuse for genderbending like they did for Saber. |
zcv45Aug 30, 2017 2:32 PM
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| @zcv45 The "Oath Under The Snow" movie is FAR from meh, though. |
Veromaye said: Is Zero actually the realistic essence of the franchise created by Nasu? No Or is this somehow fanboyism because they got so attached to the "dark" and "deep" elements of the writing? This. Nowadays for some people, something being essentially "dark and gritty" 24/7 apparently makes it more "mature" and thus better. |
MightyM16Aug 30, 2017 6:11 PM
| @zcv45 I don't believe everything else is meh. Yes some stuffs like the fanservice from Illya series is kinda a turn off if you want something at least serious but Prisma Illya does something that not all fate series do. Explaining and using a lot of fate elements to create an alternative yet "proper" fate. Before I watched Prisma Illya I was like "ehh I will probably drop it because of fanservice" and I was right, I almost dropped it xD but I just endured the second season which is the most cringy one ( and actually the one with the greatest battles ) and I believe now PI is okay to really good. Not only that but they add great cameos that at least most of type-moon fans would enjoy to see. FGO is fun, if you focus on what's important. I do consider weird the design of some servants but really? At this point where Fate was created as an erogue we will claim that some servants looking "sexy" will ruin the franchise? OR some genderbends kill the essence of the character? :T At least in my opinion that's not the case. |
MightyM16 said: Nowadays for some people, something being eassentially "dark and gritty" 24/7 apparently makes it more "mature" and thus better. Sadly it seems that that's the reality about this case. Saying this doesn't mean I think people shouldn't enjoy nihilistic themes and "dark" series. But shouldn't consider something a masterpiece just because of that. Also cute pic of Mordred there c: |
Veromaye said: Sadly it seems that that's the reality about this case. Saying this doesn't mean I think people shouldn't enjoy nihilistic themes and "dark" series. But shouldn't consider something a masterpiece just because of that. Yeah, I'm not criticizing people for liking those kind of series, I just dislike when people try to imply that those themes give some kind of superiority and bigger maturity. Also cute pic of Mordred there c: Thanks, yours is cute too. Mo-san is best Apocrypha |
| I don't think anyone really thinks the core of the Fate/ franchise is anything other then Stay Night. Even if some people like Zero more than SN, I think it's generally agreed that Zero is a better story when understood as a prequel. (I do think Zero is probably closer to the "core" of the franchise then something like Apo though, just because it's actually canon.) Perhaps the reviewers are comparing it to Zero as they are both Fate/ spinoffs, and therefore more comparable as holding similar places in the franchise, also the Apo structure (focusing on all the players) is more similar to Zero, instead of SN that just follows Shirou's story. Funnily, I don't think Zero is any more mature or edgy then SN, they are just presented a little differently. Zero's atmosphere is somber from the start while SN has more shock horror. And Kiritsugu's way less mature/realistic about his ideals then Shirou is. That's what makes him interesting. I don't know where the fiction that Zero is darker/more mature came from. |
KezmiAug 30, 2017 10:28 PM
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| And yet Zero is the most popular in the fate franchise by far if MAL numbers are to be trusted. Zero is a show that one could show to their friends who are not into animes because the story and characters are indeed, mature and compelling. No forced fan service is a big plus. The "edginess" as you described it, was not forced and in fact a reminiscent of some fantastic western writing. I wanted Apocrypha to be like Zero but I guess that was asking too much of them. Just my 0.02c. |
SigmaRhoIotaAug 30, 2017 11:04 PM
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| A lot of people find Zero "dark" and "mature", as a way of saying "a lot of people die and they talk about king stuff". I like Zero a lot, but the more I read other entries in the Fate franchise, the more I realized how incredibly overrated it could be. And in most cases, people also like it for the wrong reasons (go check any discussion of comparison between Zero and UBW: the only thing people defending Zero say to prove it's better is that "it is more dark and mature", which means nothing in context and also proves that they lack a basic understanding of what Fate, any Fate, has to offer). About being canon and stuff, well of course is canon, since we're talking Nasuverse (everything is canon, Second Magic, parallel worlds, etc ect, some people still refuse tu accept this but it's reality so yeah), but I believe it was stated that is not perfectly in the same timeline as the beginning of Fate/stay night. There are some differences in details and settings, so Zero should be basically "what technically happened before but not exactly a 100% same-timeline prequel". But that's honestly and argument just to be obsessed with small details, it's still a valid prequel and you can consider it as such. The events are surely those happened in Zero. I believe the only work considered to be in the 100% exact timeline of Fate/stay Night is the El-Melloi II Case Files, but I could be wrong and it could be just in a really near parallel timeline, just like Zero. Other Fate works are always valid imho, even if there are some "worse" than other. Well, it's more like that certain settings works better than others and some authors are better at handling those. For example, I like Fate/Apocrypha and some of its themes, but I can't negate that it struggles a bit with its own big cast, while I absolutely love everything Fate/strange Fake has done util now, and I find it far better at handling a huge cast of characters in a cohesive manner. Extra/CCC/Extella are cool, but I know relatively litte about them. I like the really unique setting for all of them, and I like how Extella FGO imho has some of the best chapters Nasu has written is years. That could be an arguable opinion of mine, but FGO has done a great job at connectiong the whole Nasuverse, and it will continue to do so in an even greater way. It also doesn't actually feel forced and doesn't break any rules, like some people often say, because surprisingly it connects well with a lot of hints given by Nasu since Fate/stay Night. I... kinda lost my point, if I ever had one. Probably not, I think I was just giving my piece of opinion on Zero and other works and on why Zero is overrated by (I hate this term and I hate that it's usually used in an offensive manner, but I have to use it this time) secondaries. It's usually the first Fate they enter in contact with, and therefore it sets a distorted standard for them for what "Fate" should be. Since how UBW was clearly animated as a sort of sequel, this doesn't help, but I really think Zero shouldn't be watched first. But my reason is not the usual "the right order is first stay night and then Zero because it's a prequel", it's just that Fate/Zero has this terrible effect of presenting everything like its the Fate standard and so everyone always expect a Fate/Zero-esque experience with any other work (just look at how people new to the franchise use Zero as a comparison, like "Apocrypha reminded me of Zero because of dark stuff and lots of bood" or "is this [other Fate work] as good as Zero?", etc.) Alright, I'm done. Sorry, I probably just wasted your time, but since you asked, and it was an interesting question, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter. |
LeloTheUnamusedAug 31, 2017 1:11 AM
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| Only anime plebs who never play VN consider Zero as best thing in franchise, and their opinions are irrelevant. You know those edgy lords who give akame ga kill 10/10 only because it has lots of deaths, so its "mature" for them and that means its cool, and for same "delusional" reasons plebs likes Zero more, cuz edgness inside them is kicking. Also it has Kiritsugu who is (unfortunately) in edge club. |
SwagernatorAug 31, 2017 12:04 AM
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Kezone said: I don't think anyone really thinks the core of the Fate/ franchise is anything other then Stay Night. Even if some people like Zero more than SN, I think it's generally agreed that Zero is a better story when understood as a prequel. (I do think Zero is probably closer to the "core" of the franchise then something like Apo though, just because it's actually canon.) Perhaps the reviewers are comparing it to Zero as they are both Fate/ spinoffs, and therefore more comparable as holding similar places in the franchise, also the Apo structure (focusing on all the players) is more similar to Zero, instead of SN that just follows Shirou's story. Funnily, I don't think Zero is any more mature or edgy then SN, they are just presented a little differently. Zero's atmosphere is somber from the start while SN has more shock horror. And Kiritsugu's way less mature/realistic about his ideals then Shirou is. That's what makes him interesting. I don't know where the fiction that Zero is darker/more mature came from. Well, for the animated shows, sure. Otherwise, it's generally agreed that F/SN VN is better than F/Z. Fate/Apocrypha is 100% canon BTW. It was supervised by Nasu to ensure it doesn't break lore. Even he and Urobuchi both contributed in a few story elements, character designs and backstories for Apocrypha. |
astroprogs said: Kezone said: I don't think anyone really thinks the core of the Fate/ franchise is anything other then Stay Night. Even if some people like Zero more than SN, I think it's generally agreed that Zero is a better story when understood as a prequel. (I do think Zero is probably closer to the "core" of the franchise then something like Apo though, just because it's actually canon.) Perhaps the reviewers are comparing it to Zero as they are both Fate/ spinoffs, and therefore more comparable as holding similar places in the franchise, also the Apo structure (focusing on all the players) is more similar to Zero, instead of SN that just follows Shirou's story. Funnily, I don't think Zero is any more mature or edgy then SN, they are just presented a little differently. Zero's atmosphere is somber from the start while SN has more shock horror. And Kiritsugu's way less mature/realistic about his ideals then Shirou is. That's what makes him interesting. I don't know where the fiction that Zero is darker/more mature came from. Well, for the animated shows, sure. Otherwise, it's generally agreed that F/SN VN is better than F/Z. Fate/Apocrypha is 100% canon BTW. It was supervised by Nasu to ensure it doesn't break lore. Even he and Urobuchi both contributed in a few story elements, character designs and backstories for Apocrypha. Well, I never claimed which entry into the franchise was better. Zero and SN are very different in focus, themes, and structure, so it's hard to compare them, and it's pretty natural that sometimes only one appeals to a person. (Again, this is why it might be easier to compare Zero and Apo, as they are both LN adaptations that follow multiple perspectives, which is quite different from SN.) Yeah, my use of canon was a bit off here, because "all routes are canon", what I meant was it fits mostly into the SN timeline, in a way very few of the spin-offs do. |
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LeloTheUnamused said: Sorry, I probably just wasted your time, but since you asked, and it was an interesting question, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter. Nope, that's actually what I wanted to know and understand. Sorry if I took your time explaining me. Thanks! |
Swagernator said: Only anime plebs who never play VN consider Zero as best thing in franchise, and their opinions are irrelevant. I'm actually an "anime only" pleb. Not because I don't want to play the VN, I'm just terrible at finding stuffs beside anime because I might end up downloading a terrible translated or not working VN? D: But I understand what you mean. You mean people who don't even want to bother with the VN. |
Veromaye said: Nope, that's actually what I wanted to know and understand. Sorry if I took your time explaining me. Thanks! Oh, good then. Glad I helped somehow. Don't worry, if I can explain something that can help someone, I like to do so. |
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nekrot1co0 said: Zero is a show that one could show to their friends who are not into animes because the story and characters are indeed, mature and compelling. Lol, honestly, I don't need "friends" that has to be "coaxed" into something. Personally, I just suggest them to watch the original DEEN F/SN, if they are hooked by the "worst" adaptation of the series, then it's easier to suggest more Fate stuff. Also bless you @LeloTheUnamused |
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Ehi, thanks I just voiced my honest opinions on the matter, nothing more lol |
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Kezone said: Zero and SN are very different in focus, themes, and structure, so it's hard to compare them, and it's pretty natural that sometimes only one appeals to a person. Umm, no? The themes are the same(well the themes I'm thinking of are. You'll have to tell me yours m8), as is the general focus(sure, FZ has multiple perspectives, but it still fleshes out important characters like Kiritsugu and Kirei the most, which is also pretty much what FSN does with Shirou and Rin). Sure, the structure is a bit different but they're still both novels and the 3 FSN routes can just be treated as 3 volumes to a novel series. Yeah, my use of canon was a bit off here, because "all routes are canon", what I meant was it fits mostly into the SN timeline, in a way very few of the spin-offs do. Same with Apocrypha though? No, one could even say Apo fits MORE because, at this point in time, it's more lore accurate and character accurate than Zero is. Though I guess you may also be talking about chronology and how Zero using most of the same characters as FSN. |
mira-pyonAug 31, 2017 12:07 PM
The sun is a deadly laser |
Veromaye said: @zcv45 I don't believe everything else is meh. Yes some stuffs like the fanservice from Illya series is kinda a turn off if you want something at least serious but Prisma Illya does something that not all fate series do. Explaining and using a lot of fate elements to create an alternative yet "proper" fate. Before I watched Prisma Illya I was like "ehh I will probably drop it because of fanservice" and I was right, I almost dropped it xD but I just endured the second season which is the most cringy one ( and actually the one with the greatest battles ) and I believe now PI is okay to really good. Not only that but they add great cameos that at least most of type-moon fans would enjoy to see. FGO is fun, if you focus on what's important. I do consider weird the design of some servants but really? At this point where Fate was created as an erogue we will claim that some servants looking "sexy" will ruin the franchise? OR some genderbends kill the essence of the character? :T At least in my opinion that's not the case. Ah right Prisma illya, actually I enjoyed it. Kind of forgot it lol. The first few seasons was fun for me as a parody. Afterwards it got more serious and was more interesting. As for FGO, the problem isn't only the character design but their lines. Some of the lines are suggestive, but from an originally ergoe series yea it is to be expected. but I think as any person that played the game, the H scenes stood out like a sore thumb in the series for the most part due to how awkward it is. The themes just don't really fit IMO and how the executed those scenes made it more apparent. I don't think most fans like the series for its H-scenes or waifus.... The character design is a problem to me because you have a few that are practically nude and you have swimsuit servants. For me, it is just weird. Maybe because I like the series for a different reason, but I find the idea of historical people fighting with other famous historical people is an interesting concept. Kind of like alternate history but not really at the same time. So swimsuits and just not even reasonable looking servants is destroying my immersion. 'Jack the ripper' is one. A serial killer is a loli... I can't really believe in that and get engaged in the story especially when parts of it revolve around 'her'... And I'll use Apocrypha as an example of this. During the recent flashback/illusion we see Berserker wearing the 'wedding dress' and it just makes no sense and stands out so much in the scene. You also have Empress Wu. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't take that character seriously if she appears in one of the Fate anime. As for this Zero debate... Zero isn't popular because it is edgy. There are plenty of shows that are edgy and aren't popular. Its just a well executed series and yes has its own flaws but it is well executed anyways. There are a dozen edgy series just to be edgy and guess what? They aren't as big of a hit. Another thing that disprove this edginess thing is that most of the characters and events are from the original Fate routes. The worms aren't there to be edgy since it was mentioned in the original series. Kiritsugu being ruthless wasn't to be edgy, it was mentioned by saber. I can only point to Kariya and the Caster pair to be extra edge. The others aren't really edgy or at least not anymore than what Fate originally had intended. UBW is very similar to Zero. It is also why most people that like Zero should like UBW more than Fate or Heaven's feel. Zero focus on a much larger amount of people than just Kiritsugu. Yes he did have more focus hence we see him as the MC but also gave enough screen time for everyone else(unlike the original routes) "Well the original was a VN so you are expected to play every route and learn about them that way" Yea but in an anime format, that doesn't work. And its why they aren't as popular. And all the masters made their own moves. Same with UBW, everyone had their own plans and intention. Fate route was very linear where the opponent comes out one by one and fighting Shirou when he makes a move. At least for the most part. This ended up having everyone else a reactionary force than participants of the grail war. Though saber and Shirou had the most development in that route. And Heaven's feel is similar or rather a mix of both but much slower pace and have more slice of life. Though not animated yet so no one knows how the masses will react. Most people watch anime, then read manga, then light novels and finally play VNs. So don't expect people to enjoy the original routes as much. Call them plebs but there are other reason that justify their opinions. Anyways, Fate route, UBW and Zero is animated. And we know that UBW and Zero is more enjoyed. One because they are similar so that hints on the people's taste. And two, Fate route was just horribly done. The anime was just bad. Simple as that. As for why Zero is liked more than UBW, Zero was animated first and they also had mostly adults so less casual slice of life. Based on the description of fate, one wouldn't expect much slice of life or romance. This is my guess on why. But the slice of life spawns from it being essentially a 'dating sim' but Zero was not. Zero is just what people would expect from "7 servants from history and 7 masters fight for a omnipotent grail that grants any wish" |
zcv45Aug 31, 2017 12:24 PM
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| This is just a personal opinion on the series. I really like Zero, but I don't really enjoy it as much as FSN. At least for me, the characters in Zero don't feel as real people, aside for Waver and Rider. They are like cartoons of what an adult is suposed to be. I maybe be alone in this one, but in FSN, the SoL scenes and character interactions makes me "believe that they are more than just characters." In Zero we dont really know anything about anyone, if you know what I mean. I agree that Zero works better as a "standalone" anime compared to UBW or 2006 Fate, but UBW is my favorite anime, so.. yeah. I think the main reason people like Zero more is that it was their first Fate thing, and when they see FSN hoping for more of the same "dark and deep stuff", they get dissapointed. But I'm only an anime pleb who has not finished the original VN. (Sorry for my english) |
neku963Aug 31, 2017 3:06 PM
zcv45 said: Ah right Prisma illya, actually I enjoyed it. Kind of forgot it lol. The first few seasons was fun for me as a parody. Afterwards it got more serious and was more interesting. As for FGO, the problem isn't only the character design but their lines. Some of the lines are suggestive, but from an originally ergoe series yea it is to be expected. but I think as any person that played the game, the H scenes stood out like a sore thumb in the series for the most part due to how awkward it is. The themes just don't really fit IMO and how the executed those scenes made it more apparent. I don't think most fans like the series for its H-scenes or waifus.... The character design is a problem to me because you have a few that are practically nude and you have swimsuit servants. For me, it is just weird. Maybe because I like the series for a different reason, but I find the idea of historical people fighting with other famous historical people is an interesting concept. Kind of like alternate history but not really at the same time. So swimsuits and just not even reasonable looking servants is destroying my immersion. 'Jack the ripper' is one. A serial killer is a loli... I can't really believe in that and get engaged in the story especially when parts of it revolve around 'her'... And I'll use Apocrypha as an example of this. During the recent flashback/illusion we see Berserker wearing the 'wedding dress' and it just makes no sense and stands out so much in the scene. You also have Empress Wu. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't take that character seriously if she appears in one of the Fate anime. I understand your point and I actually think you're right. I can't take serious some servants like the cancerous breasted Berserker that everyone calls 'mama' and ironically the same illustrator creation that is Shuten Douji or as I call it 'the loli jailbait 'dragon'. About Jack, I guess that's the least worrying looking servant for me because it actually has a solid explanation for her look. With this i'm not saying it's 'okay' but at least is not just a random generbended big breasted women that has no sense. But besides that, the swimsuit servants are inoffensive fanservice. The only thing that bothers me is, why girls but not boys? And the Zero thing. Is not that is wrong to like Zero because it's edgy, dark and 'mature'. It's that people nowadays use it to criticize other Fate works??? And it's not right? Not even comparing them because they have the same elements? Zero must be taken as a prequel and not a comparison point for other parts. Because if we do it like that then yes I should point Apocrypha a 4 or less just because it's wayy different from Zero. The only thing it has in common is the lack of Slice of life elements like other routes have. I'm probably not explaining very well myself. But from my perspective it's wrong to expect any other fate route-work to be 'just like Zero was'. |
neku963 said: At least for me, the characters in Zero don't feel as real people, aside for Waver and Rider. They are like cartoons of what an adult is suposed to be. I maybe be alone in this one, but in FSN, the SoL scenes and character interactions makes me "believe that they are more tan just characters." In Zero we dont really know anything about anyone, if you know what I mean. I agree that Zero works better as a "standalone" anime compared to UBW or 2006 Fate, but UBW is my favorite anime, so.. yeah. I think the main reason people like Zero more is that it was their first Fate thing, and when they see FSN hoping for more of the same "dark and deep stuff", they get dissapointed. But I'm only an anime pleb who has not finished the original VN. (Sorry for my english) I think you're right. And I actually agree with you, Waver and Rider for me were the most realistic characters. Everyone else was kinda robotic and somehow soulless characters. To the point they barely bothered to investigate the Caster and his master incident. Tokiomi almost losing his child because of this. While Waver and Rider found their hideout and took their actions like a real person would. And np, I'm still an anime trash too. |
Kezone said: astroprogs said: Well, for the animated shows, sure. Otherwise, it's generally agreed that F/SN VN is better than F/Z. Fate/Apocrypha is 100% canon BTW. It was supervised by Nasu to ensure it doesn't break lore. Even he and Urobuchi both contributed in a few story elements, character designs and backstories for Apocrypha. Well, I never claimed which entry into the franchise was better. Zero and SN are very different in focus, themes, and structure, so it's hard to compare them, and it's pretty natural that sometimes only one appeals to a person. (Again, this is why it might be easier to compare Zero and Apo, as they are both LN adaptations that follow multiple perspectives, which is quite different from SN.) Yeah, my use of canon was a bit off here, because "all routes are canon", what I meant was it fits mostly into the SN timeline, in a way very few of the spin-offs do. You literally said: I think it's generally agreed that Zero is a better story when understood as a prequel. This statement was why I responded with: "It's generally agreed that F/SN VN is better than F/Z." Let me rephrase: It's generally agreed that F/SN VN is still better than F/Z with F/Z being understood and in mind as the prequel. F/Z differs from F/SN in one aspect alone; structure. Both F/SN and F/Z have the same themes and focus, they just go about it in a slightly different fashion. In fact, it's much easier to compare Zero to SN because of this. Apocrypha only shares the ensemble aspect of Zero, while F/SN shares setting, themes, narrative continuity to a large degree, characters and places. Ok yeah, I see what you meant by "canon" now. Wasshio said: From what I got, after Heaven's Feel Trilogy is released, I got some people saying that people should watch Zero as the LAST thing before Fate/stay Night UBW and Heaven's Feel, because Zero spoils events of Heaven's Feel from what I got here. Though Fate/stay Night spoils events from Fate/Zero as well so its pretty much spoiler galore. It's not the same, though. The difference is that Zero was meant to be spoiled by F/SN by the authors. Anyone of those people who who say that both F/SN and F/Z spoil each other so it doesn't matter, either truly believe that they know better than both authors or are just talking out of their ass. |
astroprogsAug 31, 2017 2:10 PM
| Well, it probably is because most of the people who placed F/Z as the best or main Fate series haven't read or don't even know the existence of the original VN, aka they are "filthy secondaries". F/SN is a work by Nasu with 3 different routes with different overall themes, with only 2 routes adapted as anime adapted so far. Because of this, people find it hard to consider F/SN as a 'single' work, because in reality it is composed of 3 different routes. F/Z is a work that consisted of a single 'route' from a LN written by Urobuchi, and adapted into a 2 seasons anime, people find it more easier to watch F/Z first because it is composed of a single route. Fate Route was adapted by Deen with a below average quality, and later UBW too was adapted into a single movie, most people don't care about these adaptations and after F/Zero anime by Ufotable aired, F/Zero automatically becomes better than the FSN adaptation. F/SN UBW was later re-adapted by Ufotable, AFTER F/Z anime aired. This made people who has only watched F/Z to think that F/SN was intended to be watched AFTER F/Z, though in reality F/Z was only a prologue spin-off for F/SN. |
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Daniel_Naumov said: Not a fail. A fake. They can't be considered fail because they never could rival the genuine thing, Fate/zero. And this ladies and gentlemen is what is wrong with fate fandom. You can't beat something like that. |
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Izanagi said: Why? Very simple. People are retarded and then, they lead herds of misleaded people with distorted information and it makes it look like a huge crowd of people thinking Fate/Zero is the best series. BS! Oh my God, yes. Truer words have never been spoken. Apart from 'Artoria is best girl', but that's a different debate. :^) |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| Because as far as anime fans are concerned, Fate/Zero is the reason for the popularity of the franchise. DEEN's adaptation was infamous in the community and almost pushed some people away from FZ when it was new, but the competent FZ adaptation yielded favorable results and people went nuts, eventually everyone and their cat knew FZ and talked about it. Not to mention casuals or the average anime fan will likely not bother with anything not anime, meaning the options for comparison are pretty limited. Literally 3 (DEEN's adaptations, FZ and UBW TV). 4 if we count Kaleid, but let's face it the vast majority don't acknowledge its existence or take it seriously. Now when you consider how much DEEN's adaptations are hated, obviously they can't be the standard. That just leaves UBW and FZ. The masses prefer FZ apparently, so it became the standard. I think it's fucking dumb, but whatever. |
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| Or you can be a minority like me. I read VN, was medicore for me, I enjoyed zero way, way more. In every way. F/SN is somewhat decent only after reading F/HA, but as a stand alone, no. |
| 3 setps to become Masochist: 1. Read source material 2. Watch anime adaptation 3. Suffer Bonus Step: Tell everyone that anime is crap becouse Manga/Novel is better (duh..) How to find the worst trash anime ever, so bad that people should be ashamed for even knowing this trash exist: 1. Check your favorite anime 2. Enjoy your shit taste pleb Works everytime for everyone. |
| Honestly, who gives a damn. Both suffer from a terribly boring execution of a decently intriguing premise as well as a nauseating amount of pretentiously written corny "deep dialogues" that think they are way more meaningful then what they actually are. Top that off with endings that make little sense and a cast of characters that feel more like a bunch of plot devices than actual human beings and you got yourself a recipe for a mediocre run-of-the-mill semi-fantasy series. |
| Well I am something of a newbie to the Fate series since I only watched this year but my only guesses would be 1. Fate Zero started before the Fate Stay Night versions which some probably mistaken it for being the original and core of the series instead of a prequel made after the Fate Stay Night original one was made. 2. Compared to every of the other Fate series, Fate Zero simply nailed it as an anime and was outstanding so people obviously places a lot more empathizes on it as the core simply because it was the best to them. So every other Fate series is compared to Zero and looked bad because people wanted more of the same is my guess but the style of writing is different which rips apart their expectations. Me on one hand think Fate Zero is simply a prequel and the Fate Stay Night versions as the core although I will not deny that Fate Zero is miles ahead of the others and my favorite. |
Gift by Mimurona |
| If they do, they're retarded. Fate/Zero isn't even real; it's a spinoff |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
Basically, that's true.  |
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| It has much more compelling characters (the only good character in UBW was Archer) and instead of just focusing one boring one (like F/SN) we get an ensemble cast. The show also has a dark atmosphere which you know a freaking war should have (while in F/SN they go on dates and school which already broke my immersion). The soundtrack was amazing and the fights were well done and not just flashy shit like UBW. F/SN UBW felt like a generic anime to me with an annoying Shounen protagonist, generic waifu characters with no depth, dumbed down villians (what happened to Kirei and Gilgamesh?), cheap power ups etc. and this Fate/Apocrypha shit is even worse. I don't even count the disgusting yuri series about Illya... So far F/Z is no doubt the core of the franchise for me (anime wise). |
Aardwolf94Oct 27, 2017 6:17 PM
StardustReverie said: zero is aimed at teenagers who want to feel intelligent with it's highly applauded and philosophical themes of "lol what doe s it meanto be king lol", zombies and healthy doses of pointless gore, despair and darkness. also never forget the COOL brooding "adult" "protagonist(s)" with a dark past who the teenager can self insert into with their own similarly dark past. you can just see it in their eyes: "i will SO be kerry when i grow up!!!!!!!!!" I died at the last part. |
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