| Well, sorry this question has been bothering me since yesterday, since after 4 years I finally realized she has a lot of crosses on her jewelry and blouse. Her lineage has a centuries long relationship with the Church, and she has been under the care of a priest (even though fake one) before reaching adulthood. So even if you find this question really insignificant, I'm still curious. What do you think? |
| ... |
| She is. The whole Tohsaka family is on good terms with both the Church and the Magic Association because they were hidden Christians who became magi, when Tohsaka Nagato's interest was piqued after he met and learned magecraft from Zelretch. |
C-Core said: She is. The whole Tohsaka family is on good terms with both the Church and the Magic Association because they were hidden Christians who became magi, when Tohsaka Nagato's interest was piqued after he met and learned magecraft from Zelretch. But Christianity isn't automatically inherited upon birth, right? What I'm asking is whether she was baptized, or the fact that she practices magic somehow doesn't allow her to? |
| ... |
Tsundereppoi said: But Christianity isn't automatically inherited upon birth, right? What I'm asking is whether she was baptized, or the fact that she practices magic somehow doesn't allow her to? Their house is in a Western looking neighborhood, her father is buried in a Western cemetery etc. It is assumed that Rin is Christian as she follows Nagato's teachings and traditions, like every other Tohsaka member before her. I don't think you'll find any textual evidence that Rin was baptized or anything because it is said that all Tohsaka members are Christians. They are on good terms with the Magic Association because of their relationship with Zelretch and they get along with the Church because of their faith. It is true that the Church despises magecraft in general. However, exceptions always exist and the Tohsaka or the Kotomine lineages are one of those exceptions. The Church makes exceptions all the time. Kirei temporarily transferred from the Church to the Magic Association. Thus he was the "perfect" referee for the fifth War. He still worked together with both organizations during the ten years between FZ and FSN. Both organizations coexist in peace nowadays. One of the Church's Burial Agency's members is a Dead Apostle Ancestor, for Christ's sake. Compared to this, Christians who practice magecraft are something minor. Roa was a priest and he was a powerful magus, too. |
CapsuleCoreSep 11, 2013 2:44 PM
C-Core said: Tsundereppoi said: But Christianity isn't automatically inherited upon birth, right? What I'm asking is whether she was baptized, or the fact that she practices magic somehow doesn't allow her to? Their house is in a Western looking neighborhood, her father is buried in a Western cemetery etc. It is assumed that Rin is Christian as she follows Nagato's teachings and traditions, like every other Tohsaka member before her. I don't think you'll find any textual evidence that Rin was baptized or anything because it is said that all Tohsaka members are Christians. They are on good terms with the Magic Association because of their relationship with Zelretch and they get along with the Church because of their faith. It is true that the Church despises magecraft in general. However, exceptions always exist and the Tohsaka or the Kotomine lineages are one of those exceptions. The Church makes exceptions all the time. Kirei temporarily transferred from the Church to the Magic Association. Thus he was the "perfect" referee for the fifth War. He still worked together with both organizations during the ten years between FZ and FSN. Both organizations coexist in peace nowadays. One of the Church's Burial Agency's members is a Dead Apostle Ancestor, for Christ's sake. Compared to this, Christians who practice magecraft are something minor. Roa was a priest and he was a powerful magus, too. Thanks. That's what I wanted to hear (read). |
| ... |
Forgetfulness said: I wonder what's with Christians practicing magic or something similar in anime. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's against the Bible o_o Everyone interprets the bible in ways which best suit their agenda. And some don't even interpret it at all. Quite often atheists and agnostics are more knowledgeable on the Bible's contents than Christians. But I believe the purpose of faith is to give inner strength, and the purpose of religion is to keep society stable. Everything else is a beneficial and/or damaging DLC. |
| ... |
| If you think about it,what is that separates exorcisms from magic?That they use "God's words"?Even praying can be considered magic. As far as Nasuverse is concerned magic is when someone uses Mana,the energy that exists everywhere since it is the life force of the planet ,or Odo the energy that exists inside every living being to perform Magecraft. Now what existence have we been taught to be everywhere and inside every living being? |
ssjokg said: Now what existence have we been taught to be everywhere and inside every living being? Atoms and molecules. Nasuverse does have a "god". Akashic Records. Root. |
 |
Fai said: ssjokg said: Now what existence have we been taught to be everywhere and inside every living being? Atoms and molecules. Nasuverse does have a "god". Akashic Records. Root. Sarcasm aside I dont say that they do or dont have a god.I am only saying that there is no reason for Christians in Nasuverse to NOT do magecraft. |
Takuan_Soho said: Summoning the dead and fortune telling are prohibited (because that infringes upon God's plan), but magic in itself is not. What is prohibited is using magic in a negative way, but when it was used for good purposes it was perfectly all right. It is bad if you use magic but it is ok if you use science? Weather forecasting is but a form of fortune telling and nobody gives any attention when the (recently deceased) are brought back to life with modern medical procedures and we are not that far from being able to connect the brain from a dead human to a computer to ask questions (which was the motivation of spirits summoning). Going back to the original question, is Rin Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox? How about Ilya? |
Forgetfulness said: I think there's a difference between seeing things that are possible by normal means and not through normal means, which will increase as technology advances. As far as I know, weather forecasting is based on the atmosphere and stuff, right? Using it to predict the weather is about as "magical" as seeing a cup falling to the ground and predicting that it will smash. Remember Clarkes third law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.". You seem like you would not be able to describe in one paragraph how weather forecasting works, then from your point of view it is no different from magic since you do not understand (let allone reproduce) said procedure. Saying it is "logical" does not cut it, relativism and quantum physics have demonstrated that the inner working of the universe go way beyond the "logical" understanding of the average human mind. However, you would not be able to normally predict uncommon things like a truck running a red light and instantly killing you. Knowing that in advance would be fortune-telling unless you or the driver planned it beforehand. So if one day (when most cars have GPS) someone releases an app for android and/or iOS smartphones to sound an alarm when a a vehicle is moving at unusual speed in your general direction that would be vewwy vewwy anti-christian? iMO this would be even better than fortune telling, since said predictions are always very obscure (or plain inaccurate). |
mangamuscleSep 13, 2013 8:40 PM
Forgetfulness said: I guess from my point of view, it's the equivalent of "magic" since I don't understand it, but that is not true for quite a few people. I guess that when I think of "magic", I think of something that can't be explained by anyone. Remember that in a world where magic is real, mages do know how magic works (otherwise it would be impossible to transmit said knowledge from one person to another). That is no different in a world of science where only a few individuals know how (i.e.) satellites work or how to build them. As for the truck example, I meant like days before it happened, not at the last minute. Some medical exams can tell you if you are going to have a heart attack, alzheimer or some other disease years before the disease takes you down, but it does not tell you the exact day (and sometimes they fail) just like many fortune telling methods :) |
Forgetfulness said: I guess that when I think of "magic", I think of something that can't be explained by anyone. Actually, I don't even know anymore after I think about it :| As for the truck example, I meant like days before it happened, not at the last minute. Well its good that we only have,w hat 6 magicians then, eh? Magecraft is pretty much science. It has its own rules and its own laws and its not "MAGIC". It still follows laws of physics and everything else, to the point that magic and science is inter-changeable, as proven by Fate/EXTRA, as Also Church is NOT okay with magic in Nasuverse. Why do you think executors exist and why do you think Church is involved with this whole shit. They want power and they want control and they are not okay with magic or those using it. |
|
| Not exactly.What the Church doesnt like is that the mages dont follow the Church's school. Pretty much what happens IRL with every religion in the world.Especially the Christian ones. And I agree with Forgetfulness this got really 2deep4us for no reason at all. |
| What I said above: Tohsaka Nagato was a Hidden Christian over 200 years ago, so you are probably right. Rin would be a descendant of those who were suppressed in Japan at that time. However, Nasu's Holy Church is probably neither of any of the Christian denominations, but one he made up. Though I'd say it's largely based on the Roman Catholic Church. |
Takuan_Soho said: I was just explaining what the bible actually says. The proscription on necromancy and prediction can be found in the story of Saul and the Witch of Endor. Yeah, but there is this whole "It is literal or a parabole?" thing, remember the bible clearly states "And the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you" but for most christians eat pork with no remorse at all. As for Science, religion and science has been in conflict over various items for nearly 500 years, I would dare to say that science won and religion lost, albeit some third world countires (or USA states) still hold the "evolution is but a theory" concept -_-; so saying that the Church thinks "science" is okay is hardly true. The current position of the church is that understanding natural forces is fine because God can always change them when he wants to, There has been some interesting tidbit with the discovery of the god particle (the Higgs boson) that at some predictable point of the future all matter will lose weight and the universe will deflate, in a sense they are predicting when God will change the laws of nature (and even when the end of the days will come). So in the end even with these argument the church is still behind the times. but that position took some time to develop. Indeed the case against Galileo was in large part based on Galileo's belief that he understood God's mind enough to forecast. I would not say God's mind (even for science that is a presumptuous proposition), I would say science really understands God's plan. She is a member of a unique sect, originally Catholic, but in its 300 year isolation transformed into something else. ... but what about Ilya? before you tell me "she is clearly a non practicioner!" so is most of the people I know, but ask most of them and they will say they are catholic (unless they are on the extreme left). |
| Ilya is the Child of God. |
Takuan_Soho said: I am not a christian, so I really am not arguing for them, just explaining the Church's historic position. As for pork eating, Christians have never followed Kosher law, their justification comes from the New Testament (which always trumps the old testament), where Jesus said it was more important to love God than to obey Jewish law. The "historic position" of any religion that claims they have a book written by God is "we tell you what it really means and what you must ignore". There are several passages that the modern bible does not include (look for "dead sea scrolls") and even those included today are to be interpreted by whatever branch of the church says. I wouldn't underestimate religion if I were you. The Greeks and Romans scoffed at the superstitious Jews and Christians for 500 years, but their reason lost in the end. You seem to forget that greeks and romans were equally superstitious That is what people say now, but that wasn't the argument during Galileo's time. Back then to say that you understood God's plan was to understand the Mind of God. Galileo was one of the first people who argued that all things HAD to obey mathematics and natural law, since he couldn't prove that was the case and expected people to accept it on faith it was contrary to Church teachings at the time. This is a problem even nowadays, the prime example being "climate change", those attacking or defending it quite quickly turn it into an act of fate. I have no idea what Ilya is, but my point that for most Japanese Catholicism and Christianity is more a set of symbols than a meaningful theology probably is true here. To reverse it, it would be like someone in the US creating a character that is Buddhist. They wouldn't know whether the person is Pure Land, Zen, Shingon, or whatever, they would just have the America concept of Buddhism. For the most part it would just be a name and some symbols (particularly a crucifix), not something that would actually fit into a real sect. or maybe they obfuscate it seeking not to anger any specific christian sect, which seems a bit extreme until you remember the jojo censorship due to some muslim iman writing some protest, maybe we wil never know. |
| Whomever compares religion against science is already an idiot. Or at the very least a misinformed simpleton. Both of them have different origins and possess different functions, just as, for example, a cellphone and a tree would. The different deviations of Christianity, primarily today's Catholicism and Protestantism are a joke and have proven their inability to survive within a changing environment. But that's to be expected of systems that constantly undergo change to befit someone's personal agenda. Orthodoxy on the other hand seems to be doing quite well and is definitely least bent on biblical nonsense, but rather honors Christianity the way it was originally meant to be. What I have to say about the religious and atheistic communities, is that about 80% of people on both sides are idiots. And thus the never-ending battle of science vs. religion is also enacted by those same 80%. Being a scientist doesn't disqualify you from Christianity, nor does Christianity disqualify you from being a scientist. Whomever preaches otherwise should find himself a better form of time-spending. |
| ... |
Tsundereppoi said: Whomever compares religion against science is already an idiot. Or at the very least a misinformed simpleton. Both of them have different origins and possess different functions I do not see what you mean by different functions. Religion at its core was the first attempt mankind did at trying to explain the different phenomenons around them. In a world full of uncertainty it gave mankind a bit of peace of mind. You could argue that any religion gives a code of conduct whereas the study of science per se has not, but do not fool yourself, modern medicine nowadays tells us what and how we should eat (like the bible does in the old testament), psychology tells us what is good and bad for your state of mind,etc. I do agree that you can believe in science and still keep your religion, but only if you think that religion is a cultural thing, not something like a governing body that should dictate how you should live your life. |
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