| He was too absorbed in his own pride than to tell Tokiomi about the truth. Which is understandable since it would be really awkward to talk to the guy who stole your sweetheart away about his family when you are just seen as an outsider. Instead he makes that stupid deal with Zouken thinking that he actually had a chance to win. He probably thought that he would have a chance with Aoi if he brought Sakura back. As for why he believes Zouken will uphold the deal? I have no clue. After all he knows what kind of person Zouken is better than anyone else and he should have known better than to get himself involved in that deal. "Why doesn't Kariya attack Zouken?" I guess you didn't read Heavens Feel. Zouken cannot be killed easily. He lives on in every one of the crest worms including the ones he implanted into Sakura and Kariya. Remember that scene in episode one where Zouken says "don't glare at me too much or they will get excited"? That's the worms in Kariya sensing the hostility directed at Zouken and is trying to eliminate the source of the hostility. Therefore there is no way Kariya can defy Zouken. Again, shows why it was stupid of him to make that deal. |
BloodRequiemJun 5, 2012 12:10 AM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Its because Kariya loves Aoi, but Aoi married Tokiomi. Not only that, Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou household as an alliance collateral, only for her to be tortured and raped by Zouken. That's why Kariya hates Tokiomi. Kariya can't attack Zouken and kill him that easily, because 1.Zouken's worms are implanted inside Kariya's body. 2. If Kariya choose to rebel against Zouken, the worms inside him would eat him. Besides, as seen when |
 ~ IA- Aria on the Planetes ~ Vocaloid V3 voiced by LiA (Clannad Afterstory, Angel Beats! theme song singer) |
| He clearly hates Zouken and he trusts him because he figures that Sakura would be useless to Zouken if he had the grail (or maybe he figures that he can't stand what's happening and that trusting Zouken is his one and only hope in saving Sakura). Zoukens body is created by the worms. Even if he could kill Zouken, Zouken would just find another body with the worms (as long as the main body (the crest worm) still exists). Tokiomi doesn't even seem to give a shit about Sakura, so I don't think he'd create bad blood between the Tohsaka and Makiri families for her. |
BloodRequiem said: He was too absorbed in his own pride than to tell Tokiomi about the truth. Which is understandable since it would be really awkward to talk to the guy who stole your sweetheart away about his family when you are just seen as an outsider. Instead he makes that stupid deal with Zouken thinking that he actually had a chance to win. He probably thought that he would have a chance with Aoi if he brought Sakura back. He's not that egoistic, really. And you guys probably shouldn't look too much into Kariya's actions and motives trying to find some deeper meaning and logic there. He really is the simplest character in the whole story, and easiest to understand. Every story needs its tragic hero, an idealistic, good-natured and naive person that falls victim of his ideals, his naiveté and his good-naturedness, and that often brings even worse consequences for those dear to him. Basically, |
| @truepurple 1. Heaven's Feel is the last route in the Fate/Stay Night visual novel. 2. Just because you are powerful doesn't mean that you will be chosen as a master. 3. He choked Aoi at that time because he was mentally unstable. He didn't even know that he choked her until he woke up from his hallucination. The pain from the worms basically slowly drove him mad. Why else do you think he was mumbling about killing Tokiomi while in the beginning he was all saying "wait for me Sakura"? To the people saying Tokiomi didn't give a damn about Sakura and gave her up knowing that she will be raped. Tokiomi is simply really shitty at judging character. No where is there any evidence of Tokiomi knowing about the torture and rape forced on to Sakura. He really didn't know what was going on even up until he died. About Zouken's true wish. Do you seriously really think he still remembers it? Plus if he did win the grail then shit would have happened that is worse than |
BloodRequiemJun 5, 2012 8:03 AM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
truepurple said: No, not every story needs such a character, and lots don't. And the story shouldn't have such a character if it is shoe-horned in for the sake filling this supposed void, and at the expense of making any kind of sense. But he has an important role. He keeps trolls entertained! I mean he was obviously created to suffer and therefore was written as good natured, but completely broken character, who makes worst possible decisions. It's Urobochi after all, dark stories with extra suffering on the top are his speciality. |
| Anyway, let me put your answers and questions into order here: -Why does Kariya doesn't kill Zouken? When Kariya comes back, he faces Zouken but Zouken is the best magus in the Matou household and de facto leader (also the only one who has any magecraft training from the current Matou at the start of Fate/Zero, yes that includes Sakura). SO Kariya, knowing full well he can't kill Zouken at all, is baited by Zouken's words. Zouken tells him he wants Sakura as a literal breeding machine for they can have a good Matou magus for the fifth war (which he believed to be 60 years later not 10). SO Kariya grabs the faintest hope presented to him: he gives him the Grail, and in exchange Sakura loses any importance to him so he should let her go. That was the only choice for a man with no magecraft knowledge and no power to stop Zouken. -Why does Kariya focuses on Tokiomi instead of using his new powers on Zouken? His new powers come from Zouken (the worms_. When they sense hostility toward Zouken they activate by attempting to eat Kariya's nerves and vital organs, literally eating him from the inside out. After he struck the deal and foolishly went through the speed training Zouken made sure Kariya couldn't even attempt to rebel against him. Why doesn't Zouken fight for the Grail? Ah, but that's where you're wrong grasshopper. He already fought over it once in the past and was unable to obtain it. The Grail never chose him to be a Master afterward. -WHy does Kariya strangles Aoi? Kariya's mind had been slowly eaten by the worms for over a year. By the time he faced Tokiomi in the church he was just a walking undead pretty much, driven by a singular thought "Kill Tokiomi, Save Sakura". Add to that the submissive nature of Aoi makes her reject the only pure thing Kariya still had left (his completely devoted love for Aoi), he snapped and couldn't recognize anything. He rampaged. Ever heard of murders under the heat of the moment where the killer comes to his senses and regrets it (often killing himself afterwards)? Well, that's basically what happenned. It happens in reality, I don't see why it's a mistake or "stupid" here, especially when your "character" is already half-crazy by constant pain and half his mind is gone. Also, when people say Heaven's Feel, they are still talking about Fate/Stay Night, just not the anime.Fate/Stay Night was originally a Visual Novel divided into three branching and completely different storylines: Fate (Saber's story which was adapted into the anime), Unlimited Blade Works (Archer's story and adapted into a movie), and Heaven's Feel (which was never adapted). Also, Urobuchi is the author of the Fate/Zero LIGHT NOVEL. Anyway, as far as I know the one who has most of the input in the F/Z adaptation is the overall author of Fate (who also has some input into Fate/Zero), Kinoko Nasu. I'm not sure if Gen had input in the Zero anime since Gen doesn't works for Type Moon and T-M is the general owner of the Fate franchise. |
Leon-GunJun 5, 2012 12:59 PM
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truepurple said: . Heaven's Feel is the last route in the Fate/Stay Night visual novel. What do you mean, "route"?No where is there any evidence of Tokiomi knowing Exactly, and he had the perfect chance to tell him when facing off with him. Or when he met Aoi by accident in the park, or lots of times before and after agreeing to such a absurd thing with Zouken. But that hardly lets Tokiomi off the hook. To give his daughter away to someone who would at the very least presumably not have a good reputation, if not a bad one, to not check up on her or anything... Yeah, this was a super failing of Tokiomi as a parent, Aoi too. Even her sister shares a little blame, though as a kid trusting the judgment of her parents, not alot. He didn't even know that he choked her until he woke up from his hallucination. This is different then what is shown in the anime. In the anime he knows what is happening, and they have internal dialogue proving its a actual decision, just in the heat of emotion. In the anime, its flashes of the scene going by in his vision, as he reasons to himself that he is going to die anyway so that there is no reason to hold back. No hallucinating in the anime. What does he hallucinate in the comic? And the other thing about him killing Aoi, is it Jeoperdizes the one thing the character had going for it, from heroic stupid tragic, to just stupid tragic. OK, I am stick of this mindless tragedy. I don't mind some intelligently written tragedy, but to have both that and stupid shit like this in such quantities... I want to know, in the anime, what happens with Kariya, Sakura, and Zouken (please don't reveal anything else if you can) Urobochi, is that the author of the manga? Did the author have a large/direct role in the anime too (I mean, other then the obvious of the anime being based on the manga) truepurple said: . Heaven's Feel is the last route in the Fate/Stay Night visual novel. What do you mean, "route"?No where is there any evidence of Tokiomi knowing Exactly, and he had the perfect chance to tell him when facing off with him. Or when he met Aoi by accident in the park, or lots of times before and after agreeing to such a absurd thing with Zouken. But that hardly lets Tokiomi off the hook. To give his daughter away to someone who would at the very least presumably not have a good reputation, if not a bad one, to not check up on her or anything... Yeah, this was a super failing of Tokiomi as a parent, Aoi too. Even her sister shares a little blame, though as a kid trusting the judgment of her parents, not alot. He didn't even know that he choked her until he woke up from his hallucination. This is different then what is shown in the anime. In the anime he knows what is happening, and they have internal dialogue proving its a actual decision, just in the heat of emotion. In the anime, its flashes of the scene going by in his vision, as he reasons to himself that he is going to die anyway so that there is no reason to hold back. No hallucinating in the anime. What does he hallucinate in the comic? And the other thing about him killing Aoi, is it Jeoperdizes the one thing the character had going for it, from heroic stupid tragic, to just stupid tragic. OK, I am stick of this mindless tragedy. I don't mind some intelligently written tragedy, but to have both that and stupid shit like this in such quantities... I want to know, in the anime, what happens with Kariya, Sakura, and Zouken (please don't reveal anything else if you can) Urobochi, is that the author of the manga? Did the author have a large/direct role in the anime too (I mean, other then the obvious of the anime being based on the manga) The FSN Visual Novel in separated by 3 different route with each route being its own separate story(think of them as alternate universes)In very simplified terms, Fate route is Saber's route, Unlimited blade works is Rin's route and Heaven's Feel is Sakura's route. Also teh anime made it seem that Kariya was conscious of his actions, when the novel made it pretty clear he was in la la land when he killed Aoi. He could have talked his way or figured he was set up if he had his wits about, a week with bugs eating you from inside and youd be crazy too. It also doesn't jeopardize his character by killing Aoi, its the whole point, that he is a tragic character who ends up "killing" his one true love,etc and that Kirei is a master Troll. Urobochi is the writer of the original light novel, Fate/Zero which is a prequel to the visual novel Fate/Stay Night written by Nasu. You do know that FZ is a prequel right? |
| The Art of Eight |
truepurple said: . Heaven's Feel is the last route in the Fate/Stay Night visual novel. What do you mean, "route"?Route means a storyline in game. Fate/Stay Night which is a sequel to Fate/Zero is a game with three separate storylines: Fate, Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel. Heaven's Feel explains Sakura's circumstances. Also worm rape pretty much equals Zouken rape, so we have already covered that in the first episode of Zero. truepurple said: He didn't even know that he choked her until he woke up from his hallucination. This is different then what is shown in the anime. In the anime he knows what is happening, and they have internal dialogue proving its a actual decision, just in the heat of emotion. In the anime, its flashes of the scene going by in his vision, as he reasons to himself that he is going to die anyway so that there is no reason to hold back. No hallucinating in the anime. What does he hallucinate in the comic? The black screen is clear indication that he is NOT thinking clearly at the moment. I admit they didn't portray it well, but there is a scene of hallucination. The Aoi sitting in a sunlit park is a figment of his imagination. And honestly I don't see where you could have gotten the idea that he "reasons that he may as well kill Aoi". He was half crazy from shock and pain. truepurple said: OK, I am stick of this mindless tragedy. I don't mind some intelligently written tragedy, but to have both that and stupid shit like this in such quantities... I want to know, in the anime, what happens with Kariya, Sakura, and Zouken (please don't reveal anything else if you can) But Fate/Zero has lot of "intelligent" tragedy as well. I mean, what sort of tragedy it DOESN'T have? truepurple said: Urobochi, is that the author of the manga? Did the author have a large/direct role in the anime too (I mean, other then the obvious of the anime being based on the manga) No, author of the books on which anime is based. Urobochi is writer, not a mangaka. I don't know how much he influenced anime, but really I see no reason to cut Karyia from storyline. |
truepurple said: Okay, let me make it clear since Zero doesn't show it well. You saw him live after Kirei stuck BLADES IN HIS HEAD. He's literally immortal. As long as his main body (which is small and hidden somewhere only he knows) is safe he can't die. He survived everything from being torn in half, crushed, to even exorcisms. If his body is "killed" he orders his worms to eat the flesh of someone and shapes the flesh into a new body. WHy does he look old then? Because a soul sshapes the flesh and his soul is old and withered, so his flesh looks old.Leon-Gun said: SO Kariya, knowing full well he can't kill Zouken at all, Maybe not by himself in a direct confrontation. But was some chance for Kariya to find allies against him, and/or a assassin like means of killing, and/or a way to break Sakura out without confronting Zouken directly, and/or a means to power other then Zouken. Not no chance, much better chance then trusting the word of Zouken. His new powers come from Zouken (the worms_. When they sense hostility toward Zouken they activate by attempting to eat Kariya's nerves and vital organs, literally eating him from the inside out. After he struck the deal and foolishly went through the speed training Zouken made sure Kariya couldn't even attempt to rebel against him. Unless Zouken monitors him all the time through the worms, the worms are just stupid bug like magical critters(right?) or are they semi-intelligent and know the language and stuff?), a cool headed alliance with Kirei against Zouken (where he does nothing himself) might go unnoticed by them. Or just to inform people (like her parents) what a evil jerk Zouken is so they have motivation to intervene. Leon-Gun said: when people say Heaven's Feel, they are still talking about Fate/Stay Night, just not the anime. You mean the whole of it? Anyway, I read the manga, till it stopped at the killer and his killer mage servant and didn't pick up again ever that I know of. Haven't seen the anime of it (and inversely, seen the anime of fate/zero but not read a comic of it) |
Leon-GunJun 5, 2012 4:11 PM
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| You know, for someone who doesn't even know that the source material of FZ is a LN and FSN is a VN, truepurple sure likes questioning the answers given by more knowledgeable posters. :3 |
| The Art of Eight |
truepurple said: *spoiler alert* (I am not going to bother using spoiler tags, this whole conversation is spoiler if you haven't been watching up to current) BloodRequiem said: Heavens Feel Nope, I haven't. Is it a manga? I hate how these connected materials have such different names so one has no idea they belong in the same universe. BloodRequiem said: Zouken cannot be killed easily. He lives on in every one of the crest worms including the ones he implanted into Sakura and Kariya. Remember that scene in episode one where Zouken says "don't glare at me too much or they will get excited"? That's the worms in Kariya sensing the hostility directed at Zouken and is trying to eliminate the source of the hostility. Well, maybe it reflects on the quality of the dub I got for that episode, but I read it as him saying don't get too agitated in general or the worms might attack, the translation not saying "glare" that I recall. That any kind of excessive emotional turbulence might cause them to attack, but then that didn't happen with Aoi so it must as you say. And if he wants to strike at Zouken, what better time then as terms for his alliance with Kirei Kotomine? Why waste the cost of that alliance on Tokiomi Tohsaka, love of his wife or not. How ever vile Kariya thinks Tokiomi was, he knows for a fact that Zouken is a hundred times or more worse. And you talk about love of Aoi, well that makes that he killed her, make even less sense. Yeah sure, after having gone through all that for the sake of love, to be told you don't love anyone is harsh, but still doesn't make sense to me. Some great love undone to the point of murder by a few painful words? Even in a fit of emotion, I don't buy it. EOTW said: he trusts him because he figures that Sakura would be useless to Zouken if he had the grail So goes the company line, so to speak. But he really has to check is brains at the door to figure that. 1. He only has Zoukens word that she would be of no more use afterwards. Sure he might not see a specific use himself, but that doesn't mean anything. 2. Hes a sadistic bastard who doesn't need people to have a use for him, to mess with them. Or to put it another way, the use would be for his sadistic pleasures. And Kariya would have to be blind and deaf not to see that fact. And Zouken with even more power is going to even more do as he wishes, so Kariya is actually putting Sakura at risk going along with this. (or maybe he figures that he can't stand what's happening and that trusting Zouken is his one and only hope in saving Sakura). Maybe, but in my view, even if Zouken is super powerful (and if he is that powerful then why not compete for the grail himself?) I still think he stands a hell of a better chance at fighting Zouken, even if it requires indirect strikes or alliances based ones, and winning, then trusting Zoukens word and having that trust upheld. Or in other words, trusting Zouken is not is only option of saving Sakura, and all those other options have better odds. Seishi said: And you guys probably shouldn't look too much into Kariya's actions and motives trying to find some deeper meaning and logic there. He really is the simplest character in the whole story, and easiest to understand. Every story needs its tragic hero, an idealistic, good-natured and naive person that falls victim of his ideals, his naiveté and his good-naturedness, and that often brings even worse consequences for those dear to him. . Well I was thinking the first theory was not likely however the second one is very believable to me. Why Zouken is not fighting in this war is revealed in Heaven's Feel and I recommend you read/play it if you want your answers ( I think all your questions would be answered). Kariya has no power as a magus (as shown in the first episode of fate/zero, he refused the rights to be the Matou magus) and who would he make an alliance with? He gets all his power from Zouken so he has no chance against him. Also I don't think you understand what Zouken's power is so I'll leave some spoilers now, read if you don't care about getting HF's spoiled just a little bit |
truepurple said: Why does Kariya Matou hate Tokiomi Tohsaka more then Zouken Matou, and why does he trust Zouken to keep such a promise of freeing Sakura? Why doesn't kariya use the power to attack Zouken, or sneak in and free Sakura, or something? Hell, he could have even told Tohsaka or Aoi that their daughter was being tortured, used, and mentally destroyed. I see no evidence in the show they really knew how bad it was. I mean he couldn't even get Zouken to not put Sakura through hell while he was going through all this. And its clear the evil old codger can't be trusted for shit. Does he hope to get the grail and wish for her freedom? He's not seriously thinking of giving anything to Zouken, assuming he wins even, based on the flimsiest promise conceivable? To give any kind of power to such a horribly evil man... Trusting Zouken is the only thing he can do now even without any evidence that Zouken wil keep his word.As for asking others for help? Kirei:You saw what happend with Aoi. Tokiomi:Look at ep 14 what he says to Kariya. Kiristugu:He probably would kill Kariya before he had a chance to talk and even if they had an alliance,Berserker would cause a lot of trouble with his Saber obsession. Ryunusuke:Sure.Why not kill Sakura himself? Kayneth:He would kill Kariya. Waver: Would Rider risk Waver's life for a random girl? And most important of all:If Kariya were to make an alliance with anyone,guess what would the worms inside him say about this. As for Tokiomi's responsibilities:Their families were close enough(at sometime they were even allies,creation of grail system and all)so I highly doubt he didnt know the Makiri's/Matou's training methods.Surely he didnt know what Zouken had in mind for the next war but Tokiomi surely knew what their basic training included.Just seeing how Kariya was(even if it was speedy training) during the Mion river battle was enough to speculate what was going on. Aoi fails as a mother too.Rin isnt responsible except form that she never knew(or tried to find out) what was happening to Sakura.What I am mad about is that Tokiomi almost got what he wanted in the end of HF "Trusting" Zouken is the only thing Kariya can do or at least it's better than being killed while trying to rebel against him with allies or alone.So no choice at all. Kariya had totally lost it when he was straggling Aoi.The black screen and Aoi in the park is for that.What Kariya thinks during that moment is the same as the novel.As it is stated in the LN he wanted to stop that unkown demonic woman.He realized who she was after that. |
| Kariya hates Tokiomi more than Zouken because Tokiomi is Aoi's husband, not him. He probably trusts Zouken to uphold his end of the deal because if Zouken gets the Grail, he doesn't have to give a fuck about Sakura either way. If he has the Grail, he doesn't need Sakura. It's simple. He won't tell Tokiomi because it honestly never occurs to him that Tokiomi would give a fuck, which isn't true. If the anime didn't, the novels make it clear that Tokiomi gave Sakura away out of love, if he's to be blamed for anything, it's for being too trusting. And we know what being too trusting got him, right? Oh, and Kariya obviously doesn't care about people that aren't Aoi, Sakura, or Rin (though this could be because of the effect of the worms on his sanity). Notice how he completely ignored Caster's monster during the river battle and had Berserker attack Archer (killing the pilot of the F-15 in the process) JUST because he's Tokiomi's Servant. If Archer didn't help out in the end, then Saber would've been machine gun'd and Caster's monster would be free to murder innocents unless Archer changed his mind and used his strongest Noble Phantasm (he probably wouldn't). So he probably didn't care to think of what Zouken would do with the Grail anyway. He strangled Aoi out of insanity. He just wanted her to stop talking, and he lost himself in his crazy. Finally, Kariya sucks at communication, basically. When he met Aoi in the park he said NOTHING about what was happening to Sakura, saying only "oh, I'll save her and I'll win the war", which, given that Aoi ha no idea what was happening, Aoi only heard "I'm going to kill your husband." During his conversation with Tokiomi he yet again avoided the issue, asking only why Tokiomi gave her away. Which is more or less like finding out a kid is being molested by a teacher at school, then asking the parent "why did you send your kid to school?" As a final note, if ANYBODY could kill Zouken and save Sakura, it's Archer. So telling Tokiomi would have been the best way. Nice job, Kariya. |
TheRealBoyd said: Kariya hates Tokiomi more than Zouken because Tokiomi is Aoi's husband, not him. He probably trusts Zouken to uphold his end of the deal because if Zouken gets the Grail, he doesn't have to give a fuck about Sakura either way. If he has the Grail, he doesn't need Sakura. It's simple. He won't tell Tokiomi because it honestly never occurs to him that Tokiomi would give a fuck, which isn't true. If the anime didn't, the novels make it clear that Tokiomi gave Sakura away out of love, if he's to be blamed for anything, it's for being too trusting. And we know what being too trusting got him, right? Oh, and Kariya obviously doesn't care about people that aren't Aoi, Sakura, or Rin (though this could be because of the effect of the worms on his sanity). Notice how he completely ignored Caster's monster during the river battle and had Berserker attack Archer (killing the pilot of the F-15 in the process) JUST because he's Tokiomi's Servant. If Archer didn't help out in the end, then Saber would've been machine gun'd and Caster's monster would be free to murder innocents unless Archer changed his mind and used his strongest Noble Phantasm (he probably wouldn't). So he probably didn't care to think of what Zouken would do with the Grail anyway. He strangled Aoi out of insanity. He just wanted her to stop talking, and he lost himself in his crazy. Finally, Kariya sucks at communication, basically. When he met Aoi in the park he said NOTHING about what was happening to Sakura, saying only "oh, I'll save her and I'll win the war", which, given that Aoi ha no idea what was happening, Aoi only heard "I'm going to kill your husband." During his conversation with Tokiomi he yet again avoided the issue, asking only why Tokiomi gave her away. Which is more or less like finding out a kid is being molested by a teacher at school, then asking the parent "why did you send your kid to school?" As a final note, if ANYBODY could kill Zouken and save Sakura, it's Archer. So telling Tokiomi would have been the best way. Nice job, Kariya. You know separating two sisters,for the purpose of training, knowing the possibility that the two of them will someday fight each other (like HF)isnt what someone would call love.He didnt need to give Sakura to Zouken.Just by not training her,Tokiomi could have her in the family without worries of Sealing Designations from the Association.Tokiomi puts his "magi pride" above his daughters,so I dont see much love anywhere.All that talk about protecting her by giving her to the Matou family is bullshit so that he can justify his actions.Not too trusting; he is just an idiot. At least after seeing Kariya he should have reasoned out what is happening but the Root is far more important to him than Sakura.Kayenth had better status in the magi world and still cared more about Sola than the grail. I admit that Kariya truly sucks at communication but thats not the problem I have.If I were in his position I would try to BEAT some sense into Aoi. "Forgiving" Tokiomi for Sakura's torture because of being an idiot (or too trusting as you said)is like forgiving Zouken for losing it because of the immortality. And use more command seals to order Archer to attack Zouken?I dont see Archer too eager to fight a worm(literally) like him. |
| Did you read the novels? They state pretty clearly that he did what he thought would be best for Sakura. Tokiomi does not have the omniscient viewpoint that a reader/viewer has. If there's a way to keep Sakura from the Association, he didn't think of it, making him, at worst, like you said, an idiot, not malicious. You're right that he has pride as a magus, but that makes him think Sakura deserves a better life than he can give her. It's like a "does a noble want their child to be a common peasant" situation. Even if she could live a normal life, he thinks she deserves better than that, and most parents want their kids to have better lives than them, you know? And if he didn't care about his family, well, then why did he bother to care about Sakura's future in the first place, and why did he send Aoi and Rin away? Aoi may be a doormat, but she DOES love him, there's no way Tokiomi's a bad guy at heart, even if he's too stiff and traditional. Incidentally, here's part of Tokiomi's profile from the Zero Material (at least, I'm pretty sure it's Zero Material): http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/5495/24708513.jpg (minor spoilers of later Zero stuff unless you read/watched F/SN) It's different from Zouken in that, while Zouken did lose his way, he now actively enjoys all the evil he does. Tokiomi never finds out what's happening to Sakura. Also, Archer wasn't exactly eager to attack Caster's monster either, but he did it. He wasn't eager to "kill" Assassin at the beginning, nor was he pleased to be forced to retreat, yet he still obeyed Tokiomi for the most part. He puts up with a lot for Tokiomi's sake; the only thing he flat out refused to do was use Ea, which is literally the most you can ask from him. It's not unreasonable to think that he would kill Zouken if Tokiomi asked, especially if it meant he could deal with Berserker too. |
TheRealBoyd said: Did you read the novels? They state pretty clearly that he did what he thought would be best for Sakura. Tokiomi does not have the omniscient viewpoint that a reader/viewer has. If there's a way to keep Sakura from the Association, he didn't think of it, making him, at worst, like you said, an idiot, not malicious. You're right that he has pride as a magus, but that makes him think Sakura deserves a better life than he can give her. It's like a "does a noble want their child to be a common peasant" situation. Even if she could live a normal life, he thinks she deserves better than that, and most parents want their kids to have better lives than them, you know? And if he didn't care about his family, well, then why did he bother to care about Sakura's future in the first place, and why did he send Aoi and Rin away? Aoi may be a doormat, but she DOES love him, there's no way Tokiomi's a bad guy at heart, even if he's too stiff and traditional. Incidentally, here's part of Tokiomi's profile from the Zero Material (at least, I'm pretty sure it's Zero Material): http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/5495/24708513.jpg (minor spoilers of later Zero stuff unless you read/watched F/SN) It's different from Zouken in that, while Zouken did lose his way, he now actively enjoys all the evil he does. Tokiomi never finds out what's happening to Sakura. Also, Archer wasn't exactly eager to attack Caster's monster either, but he did it. He wasn't eager to "kill" Assassin at the beginning, nor was he pleased to be forced to retreat, yet he still obeyed Tokiomi for the most part. He puts up with a lot for Tokiomi's sake; the only thing he flat out refused to do was use Ea, which is literally the most you can ask from him. It's not unreasonable to think that he would kill Zouken if Tokiomi asked, especially if it meant he could deal with Berserker too. I have read the novel.Nobles and prideful magi are the same for me.As for their future:He himself says that if they ever fight each other(Rin & Sakura)the family will be happy because there will definitely be a winner for the Tohsaka.How does that make him care more about them more than his family reputation/pride,I am sorry but whether it's the LN or anime,I see him care more about his family's reputation(his own or of future generations).Surely he isnt a monster or even a small villain but he certainly isnt responsible or parent material which is enough for earning the viewers hate.And he didnt need our viewpoints to know that the Matou(it's fucking Zouken damn it) family isnt going to treat Sakura well or that Sakura had a lot of chances to have the same training Kariya had since Tokiomi saw him(even if it was because of the "speedy" training). As for Archer vs Zouken.I cant think of a weapon except Ea that could kill Zouken in one go.There's also Sakura and the main worm(Although I think Zouken hasnt implanted it yet.Not sure).Or he could use Vimana and nuke the mansion. As for the pic:If Urobochi thinks that his irresponsibility isnt something that can be considered wrong, and people agree with it then I guess my views on that are just different from other people's views. |
ssjokgJun 6, 2012 7:28 AM
| Most likely Tokiomi didn't know about the Matou's magecraft other than the affinity with spiritual binding. Why else would you think magi would establish workshops to protect the secret behind their magecraft? The crest worm training only started with Zouken anyways so if that bastard hid his secrets well then no one will find out. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Most likely Tokiomi didn't know about the Matou's magecraft other than the affinity with spiritual binding. Why else would you think magi would establish workshops to protect the secret behind their magecraft? The crest worm training only started with Zouken anyways so if that bastard hid his secrets well then no one will find out. Even if his ancestors never found out of the Makiri's training or traidions,Tokiomi or at least Aoi should know at least one good reason that made Kariya leave his home.I know that Tokiomi most likely wouldnt do otherwise even if his wife asked him to not give Sakura away but a little bit of caring towards Sakura without the need to see her husband dead and go"Oh you also took Sakura"would make them seem a bit better.I am just saying my reasons of hate towards Tokiomi and Aoi.If there was an award for the most irresponsible parents I would vote for them. |
| Rin knew, if you play through the Visual Novel. If you tell me RIn, with just a decade of training and gathering information, knew how the Matou trained, you can't tell me Tokiomi wouldn't know. The Matou specialize in curses and they feel the drawback in their bodies. As such they teach their bodies to accept the pain. That's the main principle of their training. The rest is just Zouken's preference (the raping and such). But again, Tokiomi actually wouldn't care. If she was being tortured as part of the training then it's inevitable, that's training. Why would he care if she's being taught their magic? That was the whole purpose of why he sent her there. The only thing he didn't know was that she was not going to be the real successor of the Matou, she was just an object to be used for the next war. Anyway, I wouldn't defend myself on single lines of the Light Novel to defend him as those are the writer's ideas. Gen actually has a very dark mind. Actually, if I remember correctly I don't think Nasu wroteTokiomi as symhathetic. Heck, Nasu made even Rin look bad. SO it's a case of different ideas between writers. As such, the reader is also allowed to make his own opinion about the actual actions and not just blindly eat whatever the writer believes. If the writer exposits something like "Tokiomi only wanted what was best for his daughter" but then shows you in like 100 ways that his idea of what is best is completely asinine, the reader shouldn't just go "aw, he wanted what was best so it's totally ok", he should question the very idea. Interestingly enough this is also something Nasu made very clear in Stay Night by presenting a pure just and completely opposite force to the Magi ideaology in Shirou. It makes it that more easy to see the Magi don't hold the same values we do. |
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| Well, Yeah, it's not the same events in three different viewpoints. In all 3 you are Emiya Shirou, and the start of the Visual Novel is ALWAYS the same (your Command Seal shows up, you see Archer fighting Lancer, Lancer kills you, you revive, Lancer tries to kill you again and Saber is summoned). What happens AFTER Saber is summoned is the trigger that changes the story and the events after the night Saber is summoned are completely different in all 3 routes. Even the main antagonist changes, more or less. It was actually interesting since a lot of Visual Novels tend to keep a common route which they always force you to go through to reach specific endings, but Fate/Stay Night is literally 3 different stories. As for Kariya, I can recognize your reasons for not buying it. It's true that he could have gone rambo on Zouken (and died like a dog for even trying mind you), but Gen is a writer that loves tragic heroes, and in case you don't get the true essence of tragic heroes, read some Greek tragedies like Oedipus and such. Tragic heroes are tragic heroes BECAUSE they are manipulated by either chance, destiny, or just human flaws into making terrible mistakes. That doesn't contradict the "hero" part, it's just pat of what the Tragedy genre is. |
Leon-GunJun 6, 2012 6:32 PM
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truepurple said: Interesting thoughts from every one. I can't get into it all, so just some of the biggest issues. I still don't buy Kariya irrational hate of Tomiomi. There are lots of examples of real life and story people where someone loves someone elses wife, that does not lead to a irrational hatred of said husband. Even if there is Kariyas hate of Tomiomis irrational commitment to that root crap above everything else like so many mages in this story as well, it still isn't enough for me. I have not read anything from you guys that properly explained Kariya's irrational hate of Tomiomi. But Kariyas should be bubbling over in his hatred for Zouken, and any insanity should erase his fear of Zouken or his chances of success against him, but so far I have not seen this. And Kariyas killing Aoi, the supposed reason for his hate of Tomjiomi alone, solely based on insanity and temporary additional insanity from emotional overload, its too convenient a excuse. It doesn't hold water for me. People who kill others in a fit of rage do it because deep down they wanted to do it anyway, and the rage/insanity stripes their ability to fight said urges. I see no evidence to suggest Kariyas had any reason to want to kill Aoi before this point. "dankickyou" said: The FSN Visual Novel in separated by 3 different route with each route being its own separate story(think of them as alternate universes) So its not the same story told three different ways, but actual different events and endings? He actually hates Zouken.What do you think was the reason he left his home?The point is he cant hate Zouken even more than he already does.And several times Kariya says that he will kill both of them(he cant but thats another story). Again ,Kariya NEVER wanted to kill Aoi.No one can deny that he still loved her.He would go back to his family learn some magecraft and kill Tokiomi some years later(if that was possible) if he hadnt accepted her decision.What made him participate in the war was that the man Aoi chose was willing to destroy his family for a magu's"pride" and Aoi wasnt doing anything about this.If Kariya had never heard about Sakura being adopted by Zouken, nothing would have happen.And quoting what Thess said in another thread Thess said: In all truth it's a miracle by itself that Kariya survived this long and still cared to save Sakura.In fact, he didn't start to hate Tokiomi until he saw Sakura raped and covered by worms. Which is an understandable reaction after all Aoi told him that it was Tokiomi who took that decision. Over a year of torture, which includes a stroke that paralyzed half of his body and losing sight of one eye, his mental state deteriorated to the point that he couldn't really keep up with any complex mental process by the crippling agony and how the worms devoured his internal organs (the LN goes as far as spells aloud that, were Kariya's brain functions have been intact, he would have figured out this was all a set up by Kotomine). His hatred for Tokiomi was something that increased as outlet to keep him mobilize to keep going. He couldn't be hostile against Zouken (since the worms he has inside of him are Zouken and would make him suffer if he glares at him), Tokiomi was a solid target. Once again, the anime portrays him too pretty? He looked like a nuclear power plant explosion victim in the novel. He was barely recognizable lump of flesh (that was mostly dead) which only kept moving by magecraft. His voice was cracked and almost unrecognizable. |
ssjokgJun 6, 2012 7:16 PM
Leon-Gun said: Oh, I'm not saying that, it's just different ways to look at his character. I'm not saying mine is right or yours (or anybody else's) is wrong. I don't blindly think what I think about Tokiomi just because Urobuchi says something (I think I've argued about this a few weeks ago in another topic and I just found that scan the other day), I'm just kind of supplementing my view so it doesn't look completely unfounded, more or less. If the writer exposits something like "Tokiomi only wanted what was best for his daughter" but then shows you in like 100 ways that his idea of what is best is completely asinine, the reader shouldn't just go "aw, he wanted what was best so it's totally ok", he should question the very idea. Anyway back to the main topic, yeah, more or less the worms make Kariya even angrier/stupider etc. He was angry at Aoi, so that and everything else made him snap. Plenty of people go too far in anger and do things they wouldn't do if they were calm, so considering what Kariya has to deal with, I don't see how his reaction doesn't make sense. I'm not saying the worms completely excuse him for all of his negative actions (I'll give strangling Aoi to spur of the moment insanity, but I don't think they put thoughts in his head that were never there, like killing Tokiomi), but they do heavily influence him. |
truepurple said: I asked this before, has Zouken literally sexually raped Sakura? Or is it just called that because his worms have entered every part of her, as in, he has raped Sakura in the same way he has raped Kariya? the worms ARE Zouken so yeah he has raped her |
ssjokg said: Then again, you really can't understand the concept until you see Zouken's real body. xD When he says he has corrupted Sakura he means it.truepurple said: I asked this before, has Zouken literally sexually raped Sakura? Or is it just called that because his worms have entered every part of her, as in, he has raped Sakura in the same way he has raped Kariya? the worms ARE Zouken so yeah he has raped her |
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| Yes Kariya had other options but because his character is a chunibyo, he can't choose those options. And no, the options you listed are not valid. 1.Kirtsugu. Compassion. Are you kidding me? Helping Kariya doesn't benefit him so why the hell would he do it? And no, Kiritsugu would get stomped by Zouken. 2.By cutting ties with the Matou family, Kariya basically eliminated himself from the world of magic. The association probably has the same views as Tokiomi about how Kariya has shamed the path of magic. I doubt that anyone would help him through magical means. 3.That's the problem. He doesn't want to sit down and have a nice conversation with Tokiomi. Presenting them with evidence? Highly unlikely. 4.Just need to rescue Sakura. And have the crest worm inside her kill her? Smart move there. 5.Again, normal people would think that he is a deluded psycho if he tells others about magic. And the association won't help him either. Refer to #2. 6.Kariya never trained for a single day in his entire life. You think he can just powerlevel in a year? This isn't Naruto or Bleach for god's sakes. |
BloodRequiemJun 8, 2012 4:31 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Nothing less to say then well done. I think people forget this isn't much of a kid anime where the people make something amazing happen out of the blue. Fate zero tends to be dark and show more of how things can be extremely unfair where even you the watcher wants to help or makes you feel bad for the character.Yes Kariya had other options but because his character is a chunibyo, he can't choose those options. And no, the options you listed are not valid. 1.Kirtsugu. Compassion. Are you kidding me? Helping Kariya doesn't benefit him so why the hell would he do it? And no, Kiritsugu would get stomped by Zouken. 2.By cutting ties with the Matou family, Kariya basically eliminated himself from the world of magic. The association probably has the same views as Tokiomi about how Kariya has shamed the path of magic. I doubt that anyone would help him through magical means. 3.That's the problem. He doesn't want to sit down and have a nice conversation with Tokiomi. Presenting them with evidence? Highly unlikely. 4.Just need to rescue Sakura. And have the crest worm inside her kill her? Smart move there. 5.Again, normal people would think that he is a deluded psycho if he tells others about magic. And the association won't help him either. Refer to #2. 6.Kariya never trained for a single day in his entire life. You think he can just powerlevel in a year? This isn't Naruto or Bleach for god's sakes. |
sonicxsamJun 8, 2012 4:37 PM
Shirou you and me... are one of the same |
| truepurple most of us here have played/read/saw at least 80% of what Typemoon has created.We have read character material,the creators opinions on some of the characters/events,argued with other Typemoon fanboys/girls in other forums. This thread has become a endless cycle.When we say that Kariya, the one we (or at least most of us)wanted to save Sakura,whether it's by winning the war or ANY other way,has no chance to win against Zouken,we arent saying it without proof or because we are against you. Do you want the biggest reason that Kariya cant fight Zouken? The worms(aka Zouken) inside him are like a surveilance camera.If Kariya rebels then he will either die or become a the perfect torture victim. To kill Zouken you would need something like Ea(i doubt you know its power),Excalibur or And even then Zouken has worms inside Sakura.So he cant even hide her As for Kiritsugu...You probably skipped all the dialogues and you even overestimate his power because he is the main character/hero.He is skilled in guerrilla warfare,and Origin bullet and Innate Time Control are his only big powers. As for proof...Tokiomi wouldnt care...it's her training after all. Zouken isnt almighty but he has one "super" ability...Immortality as long as even one worm exists |
ssjokgJun 8, 2012 6:45 PM
| I guess the thing you need to put into perspective is this: The World of Magic and the Real World are seprate. In fact, Magi are ORDERED TO KILL WHOEVER SEES THEM USING MAGIC. They only care about keeping their secrets, not about helping. SO, the real world think magic doesn't exists. If kariya went to the authorities saying "this girl is being raped by my grandfather" Zouken would retaliate by telling the Magic Association that Kariya broke the rules... then bye bye dead Kariya. Kariya had a few choices that is true, but he's impulsive, he's young, and he was manipulated by Zouken into falling to anger at both Tokiomi and Zouken, and at the very moment he fell into anger Zouken said the magic words "this is to get the Grail because you failed me" (paraphrasing here btw). This basically manipulated Kariya's train of thought into going "so if he gets the Grail he has no more need for Sakura, so I can take her away" and he comes up with the stupid deal. I personally don't think Kariya had no choices but that one, he did, if he had bothered to cool his head and think a little, but he's your classic tragic hero, manipulated into events by another source (destiny, gods, antagonists, etc) into doing something that will just end in disaster. Kiritsugu is actually no different in fact, as we will see soon. and since someone mentioned the "immortality if even one worm survives thing", it reminds me of Zouken's very last scene in Fate... |
Leon-GunJun 8, 2012 5:07 PM
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Leon-Gun said: and since someone mentioned the "immortality if even one worm survives thing", it reminds me of Zouken's very last scene in Fate... Awaiting for "*insert random character's name* could have beat him" reply... Anyway even the strongest characters in Nasuverse would have problems with Zouken(unless all of his worms are around him,just a big fat target)because of his immortality.Of course there are also,the Types but thats totally another story ... |
truepurple said: ssjokg- My example was of options before being implanted with worms. In kirtsugus story, we see three groups of individuals, the church, the mage guild, and independent assassin. I get the impression there are also mages not in the mage guild, for one seeing how kirtsugus's mentor was a mage/used magic and was not a part of the mage guild. I am sure there are non-assassins that are not part of the guild as well. Even Kirtsugu, was not a part of the mage guild, yet not killed for knowing of magic. Plus I am sure the mage guild does not have perfect unison of belief, various people under it who do not all think the same way and some who might be willing to go against that way of thinking covertly. If nothing else, he could manipulate the church into attacking Zouken, if he convinced them Zouken is sacrileges, I am sure they would spare little effort in trying to squash him, if they are as depicted by Kirtsugus mentor. I never said anything about talking to authorities outside of those who know of this world. Didn't you guys say Zouken had a real body somewhere? If not, a magical contagion or contagious curse that targets the worms could toast him, with a long enough delay so it has time to spread everywhere. The Mage Association is like the the magi government.Think of the Ministry of Magic from Harry Potter.Kiritsugu IS a magus.The same goes for the rest of the mercenaries the Association or the Church hires.It's not about being a member.I am not part of the government but I still obey the laws. The Church would risk an open war with the Association if they attacked Zouken for "training" another magus.The Church has no reason to help a magus against another magus unless they have a goal,like the "supervision"of the Grail Wars since the prize is the Holy Grail(it's not the same grail from the myths but just the name is enough for them) Real body=All of the worms, which means they could be anywhere in Fuyuki. As for Sakura And no.The whole "being hidden" helps them staying out of trouble by the normal humans(human laws dont "apply" to magi).Imagine what would happen if the existence of magic was known.Surely not happy tales of coexistence.No magi or member of the Church would want the existence of magic to go public.Along with the existence of several monsters. As for before being implanted with worms... Ask Tokiomi to do something a real father would do and save Sakura would be the only reasonable thing to do, since he has Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh has Ea.But Tokiomi is....Tokiomi. What more can I say about him. |
ssjokgJun 8, 2012 6:41 PM
| here is the scene with Kirei in Heaven's Feel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUxturlPc0Q&list=PL7F34A078F56C530C&index=99&feature=plpp_video and this is Sakura's scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KmeGd6C_z0&list=PL7F34A078F56C530C&index=114&feature=plpp_video |
| That Kirye Eleison is as satysfying as I remember. Classic Kirei, straddling between being a man of God and an embodiment of sin. |
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truepurple said: I disagreed with most of what you said BloodRequiem. A few pointers, The mage association does not have a monopoly on magic or assassins that target mages. 3.That's the problem. He doesn't want to sit down and have a nice conversation with Tokiomi. Presenting them with evidence? Highly unlikely. He should want to, his hate of Zouken should be much greater then that of Tokiomi (again, that hate doesn't even make sense) so certainly bringing proof to Tokiomi for help verses going along with Zouken and hoping for a miracle that Zouken keeps his word, was the lesser of two evils. And you forget about Aoi, who would certainly bring proof to and pressure on her husband if she knew how bad it was. .Kirtsugu. Compassion. Are you kidding me? Helping Kariya doesn't benefit him so why the hell would he do it? It's like you haven't payed any attention to kirtsugus character at all. He killed his mentor and quasi-mon on that plane to save a bunch of people he didn't even know (and he didn't even know for sure that others would die if that plane landed, just that the possibility existed) Sacrificing a loved one to save strangers, this character is all about compassion, just that he is willing to do the dark and evil (even while hating it) if it furthers what he considers the greater good. And no, Kiritsugu would get stomped by Zouken. What do you base this on? Why wouldn't a good assassin strike against Zoukens real body work? And if Zouken was that powerful, he could just get some puppet- master to control without any powers at all, he wouldn't need to power up Kariya. Just fight for him. Do you guys consider Zouken to be the strongest mage in that universe then? The association has no reason to help Kariya. I don't know why you have trouble understanding that. Kariya doesn't talk to Tokiomi because that's his character. He thinks Zouken will uphold his deal and that he will win the war so why wouldn't he want to get Sakura back himself, impress Aoi and deal a huge blow to Tokiomi's pride? Regarding Kiritsugu. I think you are the one not paying attention. That wasn't out of compassion AT ALL. That was out of duty and guilt spawned from his retarded ideals. And yes Kiritsugu would get stomped by Zouken. All Kiritsugu has is time alter which will kill him if he continuously use it and the Contender. He didn't know what to do when his contender didn't do jack shit against |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
TheRealBoyd said: Did you read the novels? They state pretty clearly that he did what he thought would be best for Sakura. He didn't. He did what was best for Sakura in a magus' POV. Tokiomi is obsessed with the Root, the Grail and the magus pride to think outside the box. He is also too obsessed with his own plans and schemes to realize they suck. Urobuchi in Tokiomi's character notes of Fate/Zero Complete Material (that you linked) explicitly say that he is a BAD GUY in Fate/Zero, despite not being a bad person (since he's kind... and stupid), his role is that of a villain, for the record. Gen likes him personally (and he likes Kayneth too), but Nasu likes Kariya. truepurple said: And you think saving lives is a "retarded ideal"? If not, what ideal are you talking about? Kiritsugu wants to be a Power Ranger. His idea of the world is set in a childish white/black set he thinks he can really save it. Anyone over the age of eight years old, knows this is ridiculous. Kiritsugu’s ideals are ‘pure’ but ‘childish’. He is called as the prince of manchildren for a reason, you know? truepurple said: I still don't buy Kariya irrational hate of Tomiomi. There are lots of examples of real life and story people where someone loves someone elses wife, that does not lead to a irrational hatred of said husband. Kariya didn't hate Tokiomi until he saw Sakura deep in the rape pit. He hated him because Aoi told him that he was the one who decided that (and he's unable to think Aoi isn't a perfect angel but actually a flawed human being who brought this to herself). That anger became hatred in the one year of non-stop torture. He couldn't hate Zouken or feel murderous towards him because the worms (which makes him Zouken's puppet) will hurt or killed him for him. There's also the fact, his body is crumbling and his sanity is slipping away (his brain by the time he finds Tokiomi in the Church, isn't working). The anime doesn't portray how awful he looks and sounds fairly (he looks too pretty for one). He's pretty much described as a dead lump of flesh moved by magic. He was covered in his own blood and unable to move after the first battle. He is incoherent and loses touch with reality because his brain is not wiring anymore. He looked like a survivor of the nuclear plant explosion earlier in the war. He drags his feet because half of his body is paralyzed after a stroke... It isn't like he went insane out of jealousy or pride. He went insane because the torture inflicted on him. |
ThessJun 11, 2012 3:03 PM
truepurple said: BloodRequiem, why do you whole quote my posts? It's tough to know what your replying to when you do that. Anyway, not once did I say Kariya should ask the mage association for help, yet for some reason you keep on harping on it as though I have said it multiple times. Regarding Kiritsugu. I think you are the one not paying attention. That wasn't out of compassion AT ALL. That was out of duty and guilt spawned from his retarded ideals. I really coudn't disagree more. And you think saving lives is a "retarded ideal"? If not, what ideal are you talking about? Anyone with knowledge of magic has to abide by the rules of the association or else they get hunted down by people like Kiritsugu, Natalia or the church. And by hiring someone who knew magic to kill Zouken (Who is from one of the most ancient and respected families in the world of magic), it would cause a lot of problems. That's why Kariya cannot get ANY help from outside sources. About Kiritsugu's ideals. It is retarded not because he wants to save people. It is retarded because he wants to save EVERYONE (Not giving a damn about or taking responsibility of the people he trampled on before reaching the goal of saving everyone)even if it meant sacrificing those dear to himself. At the end the result is that he couldn't save ANYONE. Unlimited Blade Works route is basically outright saying that Kiritsugu's ideal is shit. Keep in mind his conversation in episode 16. He basically says whatever evils I do, the grail will redeem it because the grail will do the greater good for humanity. That's not what a responsible person should be saying and that's what differs him from Shirou because Shirou does take responsibility for his actions. |
BloodRequiemJun 11, 2012 3:50 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Keep in mind his conversation in episode 16. He basically says whatever evils I do, the grail will redeem it because the grail will do the greater good for humanity. That's not what a responsible person should be saying and that's what differs him from Shirou because Shirou does take responsibility for his actions. One of the reasons of why he wants the Grail because he wants to cleanse his conscience to keep living with himself. Yep. He and Saber are more alike than they think. |
BloodRequiem said: About Kiritsugu's ideals. It is retarded not because he wants to save people. It is retarded because he wants to save EVERYONE (Not giving a damn about or taking responsibility of the people he trampled on before reaching the goal of saving everyone)even if it meant sacrificing those dear to himself. At the end the result is that he couldn't save ANYONE. Unlimited Blade Works route is basically outright saying that Kiritsugu's ideal is shit. Kiritsugu didn't actually care about the whole "saving everyone" thing until he came into contact with the Einzberns and came across a relic that could resurrect the dead. He shot the plane down in order to conform to his moral code and out of, what I guess you could say, was compassion, given that he probably cares a lot more about random strangers than your average Joe on the street does. |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
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