Spice and Wolf (light novel)
| I really enjoyed Spice and Wolf (season 2 not as much) but honestly I feel it's not old enough to be worth getting remade. When we're talking Fruits Basket and Urusei Yatsura or even Samurai X, I get it because they're ancient. But I actually recall Spice and Wolf from when I was a boy and it wasn't that long ago... What did they change in this remake? |
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| didn't watch the original Spice and wolf, but from what i heard the remake more source accurate. also don't see why Spice and wolf isn't old enough to be getting a remake, as another user pointed it out the original series is 15+. years old. and is age is the only reason to remake something? like take for example Tokyo Ghoul the first season came out in 2014 and it continued to have seasons for a few years. yet isn't it 'remake worthy'? |
| spiritual successor of lord rothchild. |
| it's pretty old enough and the fact that you didn't enjoy the second season not as much makes it more relevant |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
| Personally if I had to choose (especially since both shows have basically the same pacing so far), I prefer the original. The new version is more light novel accurate besides the Holo dance there in one of the episodes, but I just liked the aesthetics and atmosphere of the old version a lot more. The new anime's characters look anemic due to how bright and overly glossy it can look for a series that would thrive more with a retro, grainy style to it and certain design choices feel pretty lame like the wolf from the previous episode. The pacing isn't an issue in both versions and the material is still Spice and Wolf, even with Chloe from the original being changed to Yarei, who was in the books. Opening is much better in the original anime too. Production isn't bad in the new version but it does visually look weaker, and Passione's production isn't quite the smoothest and easiest situation either so it makes me curious about how everything will be in the kong run. The one ultimate advantage the new adaptation will have is that it should go past where the original anime ended its adaptation on, and hopefully adapt the full thing, which is a much stronger incentive to watch in the long run. We just haven't gotten close to that point yet with the anime for me to still prefer the new anime over the older one. So this is essentially a patience thing to see how the anime does in the future to see if this long-term new adaptation is more than worth it or not. I might prefer the original but I'm still fairly liking the new anime for the time being and think it is a solid anime so I am going to try and be optimistic about the future of this franchise. |
Reply to R-e_n
The new version is indeed closer to the source material. It's a good thing for purists. It's also a way to get new fans, if they simply continued the show from where it stopped, newer spectators would have been screwed. They would have been forced to roll with some of the changes the first anime did too.
But if I'm honest, I not only prefer the older anime, but I also genuinely think it's superior in term of direction and more interesting.
To begin with I feel the LN is rather flawed. I read it because I loved the anime and... it wasn't what I expected. For instance the romantic/sexual tension between Holo and Lawrence hits differently. In the anime you had many silences and short glances/long gazes that implied a lot. In the LN you can read everything Lawrence thinks, and oh boy, you don't want to... It feels like a cheap teenage teasing romcom instead of the more mature feeling the anime had.
Hopefully this should stay the same in both anime (welp, you never know, in 10 years teasing has become a rather popular genre in itself... So they might try their hand at that type of comedy to get closer to the LN too...). But I have actual example of mediocre directing in the new anime. For instance in episode 5 of the new anime, you have a long ass discussion between Lawrence and Marhait and you'll only see their ugly mugs for half of the episode. In the older anime you had picture to illustrate what they were talking about. Do note that they're talking about something rather technical but abstract that can be hard to grasp for some people.
Another instance of odd directing in the new anime would be the use of the harp for the chase... That's... unusual. I think the new anime has far less care and charm than the old one.
I also think the old anime simply tried to fix some of the meh writing of the LN with it's reinterpretation.
Now do I think Spice and Wolf needed a remake? It's a tough one... As I said earlier a continuation would have been hard to pull. But this isn't Furuba where the anime just creates its own end and makes it hard to come back to the story. The end of S2 was a smart innuendo, nothing more. It was rather elegant.
I also think that visually the old anime holds up very well... I actually prefer its visuals and I'm not a fan of Holo's design in the new anime. She feels younger and more childish. Voice actors have aged too, and I personally perceive a gap in their performance... But to be fair someone who didn't see the first anime could be fine with it... And casting new people would have pissed a part of the fanbase.
More than anything, this new adaptation is a business decision. If I'm not a fan of it, I really loved what they did with the begining of episode 1 that teases something in a far future. I also see it as a way to promote the sequel of the show.
I'll probably end up prefering the first anime. Adaptation that make changes aren't bad, I don't necessarily want 1 for 1 adaptations. But I'm fine with them giving the opportunity to newer fans to discover something closer to the original story.
I do think that there are MANY anime that could have benefited from this more tho... Some stuff just blatantly need remakes. Spice and Wolf wasn't really one of those things. And it's perfectly fine to watch the first anime, call it a day and continue with the LN.
But if I'm honest, I not only prefer the older anime, but I also genuinely think it's superior in term of direction and more interesting.
To begin with I feel the LN is rather flawed. I read it because I loved the anime and... it wasn't what I expected. For instance the romantic/sexual tension between Holo and Lawrence hits differently. In the anime you had many silences and short glances/long gazes that implied a lot. In the LN you can read everything Lawrence thinks, and oh boy, you don't want to... It feels like a cheap teenage teasing romcom instead of the more mature feeling the anime had.
Hopefully this should stay the same in both anime (welp, you never know, in 10 years teasing has become a rather popular genre in itself... So they might try their hand at that type of comedy to get closer to the LN too...). But I have actual example of mediocre directing in the new anime. For instance in episode 5 of the new anime, you have a long ass discussion between Lawrence and Marhait and you'll only see their ugly mugs for half of the episode. In the older anime you had picture to illustrate what they were talking about. Do note that they're talking about something rather technical but abstract that can be hard to grasp for some people.
Another instance of odd directing in the new anime would be the use of the harp for the chase... That's... unusual. I think the new anime has far less care and charm than the old one.
I also think the old anime simply tried to fix some of the meh writing of the LN with it's reinterpretation.
Now do I think Spice and Wolf needed a remake? It's a tough one... As I said earlier a continuation would have been hard to pull. But this isn't Furuba where the anime just creates its own end and makes it hard to come back to the story. The end of S2 was a smart innuendo, nothing more. It was rather elegant.
I also think that visually the old anime holds up very well... I actually prefer its visuals and I'm not a fan of Holo's design in the new anime. She feels younger and more childish. Voice actors have aged too, and I personally perceive a gap in their performance... But to be fair someone who didn't see the first anime could be fine with it... And casting new people would have pissed a part of the fanbase.
More than anything, this new adaptation is a business decision. If I'm not a fan of it, I really loved what they did with the begining of episode 1 that teases something in a far future. I also see it as a way to promote the sequel of the show.
I'll probably end up prefering the first anime. Adaptation that make changes aren't bad, I don't necessarily want 1 for 1 adaptations. But I'm fine with them giving the opportunity to newer fans to discover something closer to the original story.
I do think that there are MANY anime that could have benefited from this more tho... Some stuff just blatantly need remakes. Spice and Wolf wasn't really one of those things. And it's perfectly fine to watch the first anime, call it a day and continue with the LN.
| @R-e_n I miss when Anime took liberties with the source material. Kino no Tabi and FMA (both 2003) would not be as good if they stuck to the manga closely. Of course we have cases like Excel Saga where it makes no sense but hey it's a comedy so I guess it gets a pass. |
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| @r-e_n you hit all the marks that all those who believe the remake is better miss on. |
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp!  |
| I don't believe that people who watched the original when it was released or years ago are making objective and reliable comments. If there's any, I'd like to hear the thoughts of people who watched the original and the remake around the same time or at least, at relatively close dates. But to do that, the remake has to finish airing and that's still 4-5 months away. |
meyveMay 13, 2:07 PM
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Reply to Isekai-Enjoyer
Absurdly better in every way, unless you’re blinded by nostalgia.
| @Isekai-Enjoyer absurdly better than anime you didnt even watch? ah, my guy, you are funny, ngl |
| Am I a good person? No. But do I try to be better every single day? Also no |
| The original had more feeling and a better opening song. This series is still very good, and is truer to the source. |
Reply to R-e_n
The new version is indeed closer to the source material. It's a good thing for purists. It's also a way to get new fans, if they simply continued the show from where it stopped, newer spectators would have been screwed. They would have been forced to roll with some of the changes the first anime did too.
But if I'm honest, I not only prefer the older anime, but I also genuinely think it's superior in term of direction and more interesting.
To begin with I feel the LN is rather flawed. I read it because I loved the anime and... it wasn't what I expected. For instance the romantic/sexual tension between Holo and Lawrence hits differently. In the anime you had many silences and short glances/long gazes that implied a lot. In the LN you can read everything Lawrence thinks, and oh boy, you don't want to... It feels like a cheap teenage teasing romcom instead of the more mature feeling the anime had.
Hopefully this should stay the same in both anime (welp, you never know, in 10 years teasing has become a rather popular genre in itself... So they might try their hand at that type of comedy to get closer to the LN too...). But I have actual example of mediocre directing in the new anime. For instance in episode 5 of the new anime, you have a long ass discussion between Lawrence and Marhait and you'll only see their ugly mugs for half of the episode. In the older anime you had picture to illustrate what they were talking about. Do note that they're talking about something rather technical but abstract that can be hard to grasp for some people.
Another instance of odd directing in the new anime would be the use of the harp for the chase... That's... unusual. I think the new anime has far less care and charm than the old one.
I also think the old anime simply tried to fix some of the meh writing of the LN with it's reinterpretation.
Now do I think Spice and Wolf needed a remake? It's a tough one... As I said earlier a continuation would have been hard to pull. But this isn't Furuba where the anime just creates its own end and makes it hard to come back to the story. The end of S2 was a smart innuendo, nothing more. It was rather elegant.
I also think that visually the old anime holds up very well... I actually prefer its visuals and I'm not a fan of Holo's design in the new anime. She feels younger and more childish. Voice actors have aged too, and I personally perceive a gap in their performance... But to be fair someone who didn't see the first anime could be fine with it... And casting new people would have pissed a part of the fanbase.
More than anything, this new adaptation is a business decision. If I'm not a fan of it, I really loved what they did with the begining of episode 1 that teases something in a far future. I also see it as a way to promote the sequel of the show.
I'll probably end up prefering the first anime. Adaptation that make changes aren't bad, I don't necessarily want 1 for 1 adaptations. But I'm fine with them giving the opportunity to newer fans to discover something closer to the original story.
I do think that there are MANY anime that could have benefited from this more tho... Some stuff just blatantly need remakes. Spice and Wolf wasn't really one of those things. And it's perfectly fine to watch the first anime, call it a day and continue with the LN.
But if I'm honest, I not only prefer the older anime, but I also genuinely think it's superior in term of direction and more interesting.
To begin with I feel the LN is rather flawed. I read it because I loved the anime and... it wasn't what I expected. For instance the romantic/sexual tension between Holo and Lawrence hits differently. In the anime you had many silences and short glances/long gazes that implied a lot. In the LN you can read everything Lawrence thinks, and oh boy, you don't want to... It feels like a cheap teenage teasing romcom instead of the more mature feeling the anime had.
Hopefully this should stay the same in both anime (welp, you never know, in 10 years teasing has become a rather popular genre in itself... So they might try their hand at that type of comedy to get closer to the LN too...). But I have actual example of mediocre directing in the new anime. For instance in episode 5 of the new anime, you have a long ass discussion between Lawrence and Marhait and you'll only see their ugly mugs for half of the episode. In the older anime you had picture to illustrate what they were talking about. Do note that they're talking about something rather technical but abstract that can be hard to grasp for some people.
Another instance of odd directing in the new anime would be the use of the harp for the chase... That's... unusual. I think the new anime has far less care and charm than the old one.
I also think the old anime simply tried to fix some of the meh writing of the LN with it's reinterpretation.
Now do I think Spice and Wolf needed a remake? It's a tough one... As I said earlier a continuation would have been hard to pull. But this isn't Furuba where the anime just creates its own end and makes it hard to come back to the story. The end of S2 was a smart innuendo, nothing more. It was rather elegant.
I also think that visually the old anime holds up very well... I actually prefer its visuals and I'm not a fan of Holo's design in the new anime. She feels younger and more childish. Voice actors have aged too, and I personally perceive a gap in their performance... But to be fair someone who didn't see the first anime could be fine with it... And casting new people would have pissed a part of the fanbase.
More than anything, this new adaptation is a business decision. If I'm not a fan of it, I really loved what they did with the begining of episode 1 that teases something in a far future. I also see it as a way to promote the sequel of the show.
I'll probably end up prefering the first anime. Adaptation that make changes aren't bad, I don't necessarily want 1 for 1 adaptations. But I'm fine with them giving the opportunity to newer fans to discover something closer to the original story.
I do think that there are MANY anime that could have benefited from this more tho... Some stuff just blatantly need remakes. Spice and Wolf wasn't really one of those things. And it's perfectly fine to watch the first anime, call it a day and continue with the LN.
| @R-e_n literally my opinion |
 “Read as little as possible of critical or aesthetic works. They are either products of a close-minded spirit, petrified and devoid of meaning in their lifeless hardening, or clever verbal games [...]. Works of art are of an infinite solitude; nothing is worse than criticism for approaching them. Only love can grasp them, keep them, be just toward them. Always give precedence to your own feeling against these analyses, these reviews, these introductions. [...] You must let every impression, every seed of feeling, ripen within you, in the dark, in the inexpressible, in the unconscious, those regions closed to understanding. Wait with humility and patience for the hour of the birth of a new clarity. Art demands of its faithful followers as much as of its creators.” — RAINER-MARIA Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet (letter dated April 23, 1903). |
Reply to anizawa89
@R-e_n I miss when Anime took liberties with the source material. Kino no Tabi and FMA (both 2003) would not be as good if they stuck to the manga closely. Of course we have cases like Excel Saga where it makes no sense but hey it's a comedy so I guess it gets a pass.
| @anizawa89 "I miss when Anime took liberties with the source material." Well, I don't. A lot... and I mean A LOT of those so-called liberties were just nothing else, just a shit hitting the fan or utterly unnecessary to the overall picture. There were a few that really needed some, but not just comedy. Normal, character-driven stories also, such as for instances, drama (e.g. Galaxy Express 999). But in most of the cases liberties were just destructive to the adaptation (e.g. Da Capo, Green Green, Devilman TV and so on). Most of the original S&W liberties just flipped the already set table (e.g. the new character at the very beginning of the story). |
| Og has better writing and vibe all around |
| The ambience of the original is better, and so is the artstyle. This makes a bunch of suspenseful and intense scenes in the first arc (which by all means is the weakest part of the material) far less impactful, it's just too flat and cute for the most part (Holo isn't intimidating in the slighest in her wolf form). On the other hand, being more faithful to the LN is definitely the better way to go. In the first adaptation, they merely changed a character's gender to make a little antagonistic love triangle tease (or so it's what it feels like anyway), which makes for a not as centered confrontation during the whole thing in the sewers. For a mix of both, we also have Holo, who while is more faithful to her personality in the books somewhat (cuter and clumsier), also loses a lot of her wit that got so well translated in the previous anime (her more mature side is also accentuated better in the LN). Basically, now we have a sillier cute Holo, when we first had a more mature and serious Holo, when in the LN it was more like both combined. I just hope the adaptation will course-correct this part, as the story progresses, because this is a pretty significant deal breaker to me. Holo, and to a smaller extent Lawrence, are basically everything this story have of most important other than the economics subplots and the cool lore centered stuff. If you flanderize her towards cute "waifu bait" too much (which is definitely worse than "flanderizing" her to be more serious and mature, since the cute aspect is not what makes her significant in any way), and you kinda lose the original appeal that she had as a protagonist. Then again, hilariously enough there are examples of the latter being for the worse: Classroom of Elite's best twist was getting to know that the protagonist was actually a ruthless calculating bastard with a masterplan, and that was not something you found out until he first started to play his cards in the LN, while in the anime they spoil the entire twist by flanderizing his smartness to the point of feeling pretentious (in a story that by all means is being a bit pretentious for the fun of it with the mind games, it's just not as much as the anime makes it to be, with all the literary quotes that make no sense whasoever and are only there to make it look intellectual). Doesn't help that they also cut a bunch of characters and applied their roles to other members in the cast, making them the only important ones and worsening the problem. Mahouka had a similar issue as well with Tatsuya in the anime, he basically goes full Gary Stu instead of being a , all that nuance goes to the trash in favor of making him look cooler). Doesn't help in the slighest that they cut a lot of explanations since it would be impossible to adapt the magitech infodumps without obliterating the already slow pacing, but which in turn made for a slog lacking in substance for the first season especially. All in all, at least the adaptation is great here, unlike the previous examples. |
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| The original anime improved upon the LN a lot. The new anime is closer to the LN, so it's a bit worse. |
| I never watched the original but I'm enjoying this season thus far. Holo's design is much cuter than what I saw from perusing the original. |
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| I didn't watch the original, but I've watched like 5 episodes of this show and it's weirdly boring. Holo is nice but she can't do much alone |
Reply to AshTheChamp
The Remake is better than the original and a remake was needed to hook as many new fans as possible
| @AshTheChamp until they don't announce the second season and we need another reremake in 2030. |
| キターーーー(・∀・)ーーー！！ |
| Watched the original Spice and Wolf more than a few times and am currently keeping up with the remake. I think both have their pros and cons. While the first few episodes of the remake were a bit too fast-paced for my liking, I think that as it continued I was able to adjust and now I don't mind. I also really like the overall visuals of the remake. While I do agree that, tonally, the grimier look of the original fit the series better, I think that the new visuals and very pretty and pleasing to look at. I will say, however, that I prefer Holo's old design. She felt more mature, something you would expect from a several hundred year old wolf god. The new Holo is still cute but I feel like with the new design she's more supposed to be just another waifu (thinking about that one Holo dance in the remake). That being said I like the design of the other characters. Plot-wise, I appreciate that the remake is more accurate to the source material. If this leads to them adapting more of the LNs, that would be awesome. Like others have already mentioned, however, I think the original's creative liberties improved Spice and Wolf in some regards. Chloe's betrayal in the original felt much more impactful than Yarei's. There was emotional tension between Craft and Chloe, while Craft and Yarei were simply trading partners and friends. In this case, the original was better than the remake despite the remake's fidelity to the source material. I guess this could be a reflection of the quality of the LNs. I have some more thoughts but that's generally the gist of it. Despite this, I really like the new remake and am excited to see more. I hope they cover what the original skipped. Spice and Wolf is one of my favorite anime so I am really excited to see that it got a remake. |
Reply to mechian
@Ricz Demon Slayer would've been forgotten as a subpar shounen if not for UFOTable taking liberties. MAPPA elevated Jujutsu Kaisen to greatness with the way it re-interpreted scenes.
| @mechian And Demon Slayer is still a generic shounen with eye-catching animation quality. By the same ufotable that butchered the hell out of the Fate/Stay Night titles: - UBW series' were restructured to the point of being an angst festival and edgelording so much that even the forgotten 2010 movie version by Deen is far superior in terms of writing and editing the material. They also left out a crucial information on why Archer does what he does, which would make his character and motivation much more understandable. - In HF movies... oh boy, where to start? The left-out scenes from the first movie that would give people a way better cliffhanger? The second movie's unnecessarily elongated argueing between Sakura and Shirou on whether he should love and defend her or left to rot with a very cringe back and forth "- Don't love me! - But I do love you! - But don't! - But I do!" dialogue? Or when they left out the main part of Kotomine's statement that would foreshadow his involvement's real extent? Also, that part would be a well-done reasoning on his motivation and beliefs, and not just a bunch of sentences thrown together without any cohesion. Or the third movie's other butchered reasonings and scenes about each character's motivation and beliefs, what happened in the past, what cursed the Grail, and so on? And the same ufotable also butchered the God Eater anime. (And it's source material, the game has a pretty generic monster basher story. The only thing that saves it, is the solid gameplay.) Not mentioning Itou Junji's one of the best Japanese B-horror manga, GYO which became an Americanized heap of B-horror clichés without any real reason to do so. Yeah. Peak liberties are there. |
RiczMay 27, 2:38 AM
Reply to bvajen2
For me I don't care so much about the art direction, or even the music, but it's the way that Holo and Lawrence are written that bothers me. In the original anime Holo had more of a sassy, flirtatious, and often times outright teasing/bullying (playfully) attitude early on. I felt like she was a lot more challenging of a character, and someone who truly kept Lawrence on his toes. There's still elements of that in this version, but it's much more dialled back, and I think that's a shame.
In the new version she's often just so agreeable that she hardly seems like the same character to me. Even when she does get upset, it's only briefly. For instance, in the sewer scene where she was upset because she expected Lawrence to be the one to come, they just gloss over her embarrassment/anger so quick it has less of an impact, where I feel both in the original anime and light novel that was a pretty major character point for her early on and revealed a lot about her emotions.
Overall I don't begrudge the new version for existing, and for a modern audience they might find the new art styles etc. more familiar to them. That's fine. I just feel the character dynamic between Holo and Lawrence is different than I expected, and for a lack of other words, more bland. For me the main reason to watch Spice and Wolf was that relationship between the two of them--they challenged each other, and the sort of cat and mouse game between them was a refreshing change from the typical anime romance plot.
In the new version she's often just so agreeable that she hardly seems like the same character to me. Even when she does get upset, it's only briefly. For instance, in the sewer scene where she was upset because she expected Lawrence to be the one to come, they just gloss over her embarrassment/anger so quick it has less of an impact, where I feel both in the original anime and light novel that was a pretty major character point for her early on and revealed a lot about her emotions.
Overall I don't begrudge the new version for existing, and for a modern audience they might find the new art styles etc. more familiar to them. That's fine. I just feel the character dynamic between Holo and Lawrence is different than I expected, and for a lack of other words, more bland. For me the main reason to watch Spice and Wolf was that relationship between the two of them--they challenged each other, and the sort of cat and mouse game between them was a refreshing change from the typical anime romance plot.
| @bvajen2 Realist take. First paragraph nails the gripes I have with how Holo is presented this time around. Still enjoying watching S&W in this new, more faithful (in certain ways) format, but "challenging" is a great, succinct way to describe what made Holo so great and her interactions with Lawrence interesting to watch in the original. |
-Trippwire-May 28, 8:36 PM
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