Sieg seems to have all aspects of the ideal main character

Jan 13, 2019 8:38 AM

Offline

Apr 2014

341

Yeah, I also read the novel so I am more familiar, but I am not sure how many of his intended perfect qualities were passed as obvious in anime.

Firstly he was portrayed as having perfectly beautiful sculpted features, due to his heritage as a homolunculus (if you can create people however you want, why not make them perfect?).

Secondly, morally he was basically Jeanne in male form. Always thinking about the good of the others, but not himself. All of that despite being even much younger than Jeanne herself, so he choose to think about others despite all the things he might have wanted to do or experience himself.

This is actually the reason why Jeanne fell in love with him. He was actually the purest person she ever knew.

Personally, I really like these types of moral role-model characters, but it seems that a lot of people seem to prefer very flawed characters as protagonists. Maybe it's easier to see themselves in those? I can't really understand.

Leonhart93Jan 13, 2019 8:57 AM

Mar 9, 2019 11:57 AM

#3

Kayle_x_Morgana

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May 2016

5501

Lol no. He is boring, generic and lame. No personitalty at all. Saber was so cool and it was a shame for him to die for this loser.

Mar 11, 2019 2:11 PM

#4

Leonhart93

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Apr 2014

341

Obviously there will be as many opinions are there are people, but this matter is actually important because it gives away what qualities you look for in others.

For example, there are plenty of those that prefer types of characters like edgy and/or egoistical harem protagonists the most since "they have more personality".

...I don't think there is any need to say that my views for what I look for in characters go to very far away from that. All those are basically your very common human, I do not need to see any more of those.

I consider selfless, heroic, passionate characters to be the closest to my image of ideal and interesting.

Apr 1, 2019 3:50 AM

#5

Dawnflame

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Jun 2016

123

He's just fucking boring though.

Apr 2, 2019 4:45 PM

#6

Leonhart93

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Apr 2014

341

Dawnflame said:
He's just fucking boring though.

What I said above basically.
Sure, he won't make you laugh. But that is not what I look for specifically in a really good character anyway.
And most people won't be able to identify themselves with him (most common definition of "interesting"). But I consider that to be a good thing. If he doesn't at least have higher moral values than myself, then I have nothing to learn from him anyway.

Leonhart93Apr 2, 2019 4:59 PM

Nov 7, 2019 6:06 AM

#7

Rebelblade71

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Oct 2019

50

LN reader here and let me tell you: he is objectively a bastardization of a Nasuverse. protagonist.

His perfection is his own narrative flaw. Because there is no such thing as true perfection. Even as a homunculus, he has lots of flaws like not understanding many basic things about humans or emotions along with very underdeveloped in creative thinking since homunculi are logical beings. The problem is the story does not shows his flaws AT ALL and instead tries to make him look as perfect as possible even though it isn't.

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good. In fact, in history, there were lots of people with such traits who were bad people as in actual war criminals. Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labelling the enemy evil.

And Sieg isn't even morally perfect at all. Heck even Jeanne has human flaws that are more apparent in her monologues in the light novel. Sieg is triggered by impulse. Unlike Jeanne, who never even hated her enemies in her life like other soldiers she knew, Sieg fights with hate towards the enemy because he thought he had the moral high ground. If he hates anybody, he will be ruthless towards them. Imagine if actual human soldiers happened to be on the opposite side of Sieg. He would kill them without a second thought, believing he was just. Completely opposite of Jeanne who is a really good soldier who actually understands the greyness of the battlefield. This is also important for the next point:

THE FORCED ROMANCE. That's right. As much as one finds it cute, if you understand Jeanne's character, it is clear she isn't someone to fall for a guy just because they were good looking and heroic. And considering Sieg's bullshit morality, she wouldn't. But Higashide never gave much effort to make them play off each other so this happens. As an LN reader, let me tell you how out of character Jeanne is here. She would abandon her faith and spit on the face of Jesus Christ due to Sieg's influence and it would not feel unnatural at all. This let do one of the most interesting Nasuverse characters being ruined into just another pretty face in armor.

Sieg was a poorly utilized character. Instead of taking advantage of him being a Tabula Rasa i.e a blank slate due to his origin as a homunculus, they played him like any other idealized white knight perfect MC like Kirito (Still better than Sieg). And in a story that depicts grey morality of humans with the clash of worldview's of Amakusa and Jeanne, this type of character is out of place and throws off everything. Imagine if the MC from My little Pony showed up in The Dark Knight and won everything with the power of friendship. That is exactly the case here. They actually made him a fun, interesting character like make him react to the world around him with curiosity like he should along with asking questions only he could ask for his position. Instead we get a bundle of positive traits and powers with no personality.

There is actually a character in a game called Tales of Berseria who is really similar to Sieg, Except they take his character MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY when writing. Unlike cardboard hero, said character actually takes full advantage of his blank slate nature and plays off other characters really well along with a really likable personality.

Nov 7, 2019 6:25 AM

#8

Rebelblade71

Offline

Oct 2019

50

[quote=bestkatalyn message=57114461]Obviously there will be as many opinions are there are people, but this matter is actually important because it gives away what qualities you look for in others.

For example, there are plenty of those that prefer types of characters like edgy and/or egoistical harem protagonists the most since "they have more personality".

...I don't think there is any need to say that my views for what I look for in characters go to very far away from that. All those are basically your very common human, I do not need to see any more of those.

If a bundle of positive traits are what you seek in an ideal character then you might find many war criminals having such traits too. Such is the nature of man. Sieg is an objectively poorly written character who's writing flaws become more apparent due to the tone of the show he is in. Even Jeanne is not portrayed as an ideal hero who beats bad guys and wins. Heck, her whole internal conflict about human morality and her experience in he hundred years war make it look unlikely she will fall for Sieg just because of power and heroics. Because she herself hated how people labelled enemies like monsters needing to be killed and such deed got praised.

Reason people like flawed characters is not only because they tend to be relatable but also human because we humans are far from perfect. Sieg only looks perfect because the story tries to portray him due to being power fantasy material for 13 year old children. If people behaved like Sieg and got powers, we would have lots of homicidal maniacs running around slaughtering thinking they are doing the greater good.

Sorry to say, your argument sounds absolutely retarded and immature. Perhaps you have no idea about what real life scenarios are like (Apocrypha did try to incorporate such themes like the greyness of War and human morality which failed thanks to your favorite Gary Stu MC ruining everything because apparently power makes all the difference) and live in a narrow minded bubble of wonderland based on overly idealized tales. Remember, monsters do exist in real life in the form of humans. We just separate them into different looking beings to shield ourselves from the painful truth.

Nov 8, 2019 1:13 PM

#9

Leonhart93

Offline

Apr 2014

341

[quote=Rebelblade71 message=58626730]

bestkatalyn said:
Obviously there will be as many opinions are there are people, but this matter is actually important because it gives away what qualities you look for in others.

For example, there are plenty of those that prefer types of characters like edgy and/or egoistical harem protagonists the most since "they have more personality".

...I don't think there is any need to say that my views for what I look for in characters go to very far away from that. All those are basically your very common human, I do not need to see any more of those.

If a bundle of positive traits are what you seek in an ideal character then you might find many war criminals having such traits too. Such is the nature of man. Sieg is an objectively poorly written character who's writing flaws become more apparent due to the tone of the show he is in. Even Jeanne is not portrayed as an ideal hero who beats bad guys and wins. Heck, her whole internal conflict about human morality and her experience in he hundred years war make it look unlikely she will fall for Sieg just because of power and heroics. Because she herself hated how people labelled enemies like monsters needing to be killed and such deed got praised.

Reason people like flawed characters is not only because they tend to be relatable but also human because we humans are far from perfect. Sieg only looks perfect because the story tries to portray him due to being power fantasy material for 13 year old children. If people behaved like Sieg and got powers, we would have lots of homicidal maniacs running around slaughtering thinking they are doing the greater good.

Sorry to say, your argument sounds absolutely retarded and immature. Perhaps you have no idea about what real life scenarios are like (Apocrypha did try to incorporate such themes like the greyness of War and human morality which failed thanks to your favorite Gary Stu MC ruining everything because apparently power makes all the difference) and live in a narrow minded bubble of wonderland based on overly idealized tales. Remember, monsters do exist in real life in the form of humans. We just separate them into different looking beings to shield ourselves from the painful truth.

.......

Was the "retarded and immature" part necessary? Are you trying to have a conversation or insult people? Think carefully about what you said and then figure out who is the immature one here.

Nov 20, 2019 7:46 AM

#10

StellarIceberg

Offline

Jan 2015

226

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good.
.

This phrasing of yours is unnecessary for delivering your opinion of a fictional character. You're basically using the anime stereotype of a weeb being a loser. I won't correct you cause if you've got some neurons in that thick head of yours, you'll understand it yourself.

Rebelblade71 said:

Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labeling the enemy evil.

cause genius, there are no right or wrongs in a war. Your personal sense of morality will justify everything you see, and if it fails to do so, you'll see it as wrong. That's how psychology works.

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg was a poorly utilized character. Instead of taking advantage of him being a Tabula Rasa i.e a blank slate due to his origin as a homunculus, they played him like any other idealized white knight perfect MC like Kirito (Still better than Sieg). And in a story that depicts grey morality of humans with the clash of worldview's of Amakusa and Jeanne, this type of character is out of place and throws off everything. Imagine if the MC from My little Pony showed up in The Dark Knight and won everything with the power of friendship. That is exactly the case here.
.

A paper gets dyed whatever the color of ink is sprayed on it. I'm not saying the character of Seig is flawless. But saying his traits to be mismatched is nothing but ignorant ranting due to lack of knowledge of psychology. Even humans, in everyday lives, pick up habits or hobbies subconsciously from other people. Probably you have as well. Seig turned out to be of the same character the people he first met were. And he's impulsive because, he has never had things such as emotion within him. Love and hate are the most basic of those. A child will understand love before he understands jealousy and hate before he understands forgiveness. In a sense, the emotional growth of Seig is basically at the level of a pre-teen. As one of the first impartial people he met was Jeanne, he grew affectionate. And as the object of his affection was killed before his eyes, the very same love turned into hatred. Before going on babbling about the flaws of a character try to understand why it was written the way it was. But well to each his own.

Your life to come is bound to make you smile

Nov 20, 2019 8:24 AM

#11

Rebelblade71

Offline

Oct 2019

50

StellarIceberg said:

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good.
.

This phrasing of yours is unnecessary for delivering your opinion of a fictional character. You're basically using the anime stereotype of a weeb being a loser. I won't correct you cause if you've got some neurons in that thick head of yours, you'll understand it yourself.

Rebelblade71 said:

Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labeling the enemy evil.

cause genius, there are no right or wrongs in a war. Your personal sense of morality will justify everything you see, and if it fails to do so, you'll see it as wrong. That's how psychology works.

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg was a poorly utilized character. Instead of taking advantage of him being a Tabula Rasa i.e a blank slate due to his origin as a homunculus, they played him like any other idealized white knight perfect MC like Kirito (Still better than Sieg). And in a story that depicts grey morality of humans with the clash of worldview's of Amakusa and Jeanne, this type of character is out of place and throws off everything. Imagine if the MC from My little Pony showed up in The Dark Knight and won everything with the power of friendship. That is exactly the case here.
.

A paper gets dyed whatever the color of ink is sprayed on it. I'm not saying the character of Seig is flawless. But saying his traits to be mismatched is nothing but ignorant ranting due to lack of knowledge of psychology. Even humans, in everyday lives, pick up habits or hobbies subconsciously from other people. Probably you have as well. Seig turned out to be of the same character the people he first met were. And he's impulsive because, he has never had things such as emotion within him. Love and hate are the most basic of those. A child will understand love before he understands jealousy and hate before he understands forgiveness. In a sense, the emotional growth of Seig is basically at the level of a pre-teen. As one of the first impartial people he met was Jeanne, he grew affectionate. And as the object of his affection was killed before his eyes, the very same love turned into hatred. Before going on babbling about the flaws of a character try to understand why it was written the way it was. But well to each his own.

StellarIceberg said:

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good.
.

This phrasing of yours is unnecessary for delivering your opinion of a fictional character. You're basically using the anime stereotype of a weeb being a loser. I won't correct you cause if you've got some neurons in that thick head of yours, you'll understand it yourself.

Rebelblade71 said:

Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labeling the enemy evil.

cause genius, there are no right or wrongs in a war. Your personal sense of morality will justify everything you see, and if it fails to do so, you'll see it as wrong. That's how psychology works.

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg was a poorly utilized character. Instead of taking advantage of him being a Tabula Rasa i.e a blank slate due to his origin as a homunculus, they played him like any other idealized white knight perfect MC like Kirito (Still better than Sieg). And in a story that depicts grey morality of humans with the clash of worldview's of Amakusa and Jeanne, this type of character is out of place and throws off everything. Imagine if the MC from My little Pony showed up in The Dark Knight and won everything with the power of friendship. That is exactly the case here.
.

A paper gets dyed whatever the color of ink is sprayed on it. I'm not saying the character of Seig is flawless. But saying his traits to be mismatched is nothing but ignorant ranting due to lack of knowledge of psychology. Even humans, in everyday lives, pick up habits or hobbies subconsciously from other people. Probably you have as well. Seig turned out to be of the same character the people he first met were. And he's impulsive because, he has never had things such as emotion within him. Love and hate are the most basic of those. A child will understand love before he understands jealousy and hate before he understands forgiveness. In a sense, the emotional growth of Seig is basically at the level of a pre-teen. As one of the first impartial people he met was Jeanne, he grew affectionate. And as the object of his affection was killed before his eyes, the very same love turned into hatred. Before going on babbling about the flaws of a character try to understand why it was written the way it was. But well to each his own.

Lack of knowledge on psychology? Perhaps you just ignored the fact that Sieg was born a logical being. But he did have emotions which he did not understand because of his origins. In the Novels, we do see the process he gains free will. It's through collecting information about his surroundings using the homunculi hive mind (skipped in the anime) and learning about what fate awaited battery type homunculus is what drove Sieg to escape. He had a strong base with his desire to live. But after Siegfried puts his heart in him, he becomes your typical LN wish fulfillment protagonist, losing all potential his character ever had. He is considered the Nasuverse equivalent of Rey by the fandom for good reason.
And all that stuff you say makes it look like Sieg had natural character development when he didn't. Just absurdly poor writing.

There is a beauty in seeing blank slate characters slowly learn from their surroundings and experiences. That is why I love Laphicet from Tales of Berseria. But we don't get that with Sieg. He never had a sense of right or wrong in him but acts as though he had a very strong sense of morality since birth. He acts like he totally does not know what to do in some parts but most of the time he just charges head forward saying his catchphrase "This is the path I choose!" like someone who had developed strong convictions. Despite his nature, he is never making any mistake a single time and plot armor is always there to save him 24/7, never letting him shine on his own. His personality can be considered really similar to Mary Sue from Saga of Tanya the evil but Sieg is framed as a perfect hero in a very contrived way. And considering the themes of Apocrypha about human morality, that was a really bad move, which adds to why he is hated so much in the first place.

It just pisses me off when objectively poor writing gets praised while anyone pointing that out is shamed even though they bring valid reasons. But yeah insert opinion entitlement. Even though its often used as a fallacy to avoid objective arguments.

Feb 28, 2022 1:00 AM

#12

removed-user

Offline

Jul 2018

564488

Sieg and Shirou are both good, but i also like Sieg more because he seems more innocent and is also more quiet, which is closer to the ideal protagonist, the silent type is more archetypical for the main character, while Shirou talks too much with his opinions and philosophies, Sieg seems more centered

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good. In fact, in history, there were lots of people with such traits who were bad people as in actual war criminals. Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labelling the enemy evil.

.

this has to be one of the biggest projections i have ever seen, the most ironic part of your ranting is that the only people in the world who still use 2008 english slang terms such as "weeb" and try to denigrate random people are a minority of internet-based white male nationalists from the west with backwards mentality, which hilariously, they are also the ones least likely to be able to ever have a relationship, just look at how much messed up countries in the west are (north america and western europe) they are the only ones that on the one side brag about typical outdated male supremacy stuff such as "having many girls" (which always leads to aids, psychological issues and various other diseases by the way, including abortion and suicide) yet at the same time, they are the only ones that completely fail to even have a relationship and make families, they have the most declining population, the highest divorce rates, the highest suicide rates and the most messed up lives altogether, and judging from your overall comments it is pretty clear that you are one of them, you have never been able to even approach someone of the other gender, let alone being in a relationship, since you still use that old term to denigrate and you seem to carry a lot of bitterness (some of your other comments on other threads are filled with anger), which is the typical neckbeard white male behavior

why do you think that western countries are declining so rapidly while their population is being increasingly replaced by muslim immigrants from africa and the middle east? the people from western countries have the lowest birthrate and the highest suicide rates, while their immigrant counterparts are increasing rapidly, and your own girls are getting married with muslims instead while western males die alone and miserable (and usually in the form of suicide)

now back to the actual topic, considering that almost every single person in the world has interacted with anime and manga at some point when concepts such as pokemon, yu-gi-oh and hello kitty exist, and western countries are an extremely small minority (6%) of the total population, it is pretty obvious that sword art online falls within the standards of prefered protagonist which is also why it is so popular, it has a likeable and cool main characters who completes various quests, and since you even used the term "casual" it already refutes your ranting anyway since casuals are the majority and the norm and because sword art online is so popular it obviously aligns with the normal standards of a protagonist, same goes for fate protagonists such as Sieg and Shirou Emiya

removed-userFeb 28, 2022 6:12 AM

Jun 6, 2022 11:12 PM

#13

Rebelblade71

Offline

Oct 2019

50

removed-user said:
Sieg and Shirou are both good, but i also like Sieg more because he seems more innocent and is also more quiet, which is closer to the ideal protagonist, the silent type is more archetypical for the main character, while Shirou talks too much with his opinions and philosophies, Sieg seems more centered

Rebelblade71 said:

Sieg might be idealized by casuals since he is all they want to be i.e badass morally perfect guy who always wins and gets the girls. Ever wonder why SAO is so popular despite not so good writing? Because weebs get to enjoy power fantasy and self-gratification of being a badass winner who dominates and gets the girls because, you know, they can't in real life. Sadly, that is a mere child's view because simply having power and desirable traits does not make one good. In fact, in history, there were lots of people with such traits who were bad people as in actual war criminals. Power does not equal moral high ground and often one side calls themselves just by simply labelling the enemy evil.

.

this has to be one of the biggest projections i have ever seen, the most ironic part of your ranting is that the only people in the world who still use 2008 english slang terms such as "weeb" and try to denigrate random people are a minority of internet-based white male nationalists from the west with backwards mentality, which hilariously, they are also the ones least likely to be able to ever have a relationship, just look at how much messed up countries in the west are (north america and western europe) they are the only ones that on the one side brag about typical outdated male supremacy stuff such as "having many girls" (which always leads to aids, psychological issues and various other diseases by the way, including abortion and suicide) yet at the same time, they are the only ones that completely fail to even have a relationship and make families, they have the most declining population, the highest divorce rates, the highest suicide rates and the most messed up lives altogether, and judging from your overall comments it is pretty clear that you are one of them, you have never been able to even approach someone of the other gender, let alone being in a relationship, since you still use that old term to denigrate and you seem to carry a lot of bitterness (some of your other comments on other threads are filled with anger), which is the typical neckbeard white male behavior

why do you think that western countries are declining so rapidly while their population is being increasingly replaced by muslim immigrants from africa and the middle east? the people from western countries have the lowest birthrate and the highest suicide rates, while their immigrant counterparts are increasing rapidly, and your own girls are getting married with muslims instead while western males die alone and miserable (and usually in the form of suicide)

now back to the actual topic, considering that almost every single person in the world has interacted with anime and manga at some point when concepts such as pokemon, yu-gi-oh and hello kitty exist, and western countries are an extremely small minority (6%) of the total population, it is pretty obvious that sword art online falls within the standards of prefered protagonist which is also why it is so popular, it has a likeable and cool main characters who completes various quests, and since you even used the term "casual" it already refutes your ranting anyway since casuals are the majority and the norm and because sword art online is so popular it obviously aligns with the normal standards of a protagonist, same goes for fate protagonists such as Sieg and Shirou Emiya

Even though I strongly agree with your statement about Western society and its decline, I couldn't help but burst out laughing when reading your comment. Did you just assume I am a Western white male from West European culture? I'm a Muslim Bengali from South East Asia lol. That idealized view of a power guy that plays hero and gets girls is something that the normies of the Western Whites you rambled about are more likely to accept than, you know a character with flaws and nuance that questions things and reflects on their actions.

Also FGO had its Apocrypha event and thank goodness they expanded upon Sieg's base character and ACTUALLY made him work as how he should: as someone with the mental age of a child but in a teen's body that explores stuff and has fun interacting with others in Chaldea because of Fujimaru giving him a second chance of a fun life. Now, It's Jeanne who's the worst character if we consider Apocrypha.

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Sieg seems to have all aspects of the ideal main character

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