| Reworded the post a bit to make it clearer. |
astroprogs said: mira-nyan said: Fate is Saber's route, dude. Stahop deluding yourself. UBW can't even be counted as Rin's route. I mean, the title isn't even related to her in any way. Even Nasu himself admitted that she didn't feel like a heroine in her own route. HF is Sakura's and Illya. Ignoring the jokes that you guys make, HF is a combi of Sakura and Illya's routes - how it is, how it always was. Rin may be the deuteragonist, meaning, like Shirou, her development isn't placed in one route. Nor does she have a route of her own that explains each and every drop of her character. Unlike, say, Sakura and Archer, Rin's whole backstory isn't in one route. So, no, every route is not her route. Stahp deluding yourself. Screw your head on right. And...? I'm not sure what's the point you're trying to make here. As you said, Rin is the deuteragonist, so she gets, inevitably, explored and developed in every route unlike Saber and Sakura. HF is Illya's route because she gets developed the most in it. Fate and HF are Kirei's routes for the same reason, and so on... In THAT sense, every route IS Rin's route. It's not. And you're using the 'sense' wrong. A route belongs to the heroine whom the route is about. Fate is about Saber and her development. She has to face her 'fate' and die. Hence it's HER route. Saber's route, not Rin's. UBW is about Archer and his question/dilemma and his answer. It's UBW because the RM is what connects them; it's very important to the plot. It may be considered Rin's route, as she is supposedly the heroine of the route, but even Nasu has admitted that she's hardly a heroine in it. HF is about the two grails and their development. Hence it's called 'Heavens Feel'. Rin gets more character than she does in the other routes, but, jokes aside, it is NOT her route. It belongs to Illya and Sakura. Astro, you need to learn to differentiate facts from jokes. All the routes do NOT belong to Rin. A deuteragonist is the second most important character. Her development is spread out over the routes, but that doesn't make her the heroine of all the routes. Example; you see different sides of Archer depending on the route. In Fate you don't see much of him, but he helps Shirou. In UBW he takes action and his real motives are seen. He's kinda like a mid-boss at that point. In HF, however, he goes out of his way to help Shirou and the gang, knowing that he won't end up like him. There, development over all the routes. Do all the routes belong to him? No. Saber, for example, in Fate she is the heroine and we see her past and her view on things. In UBW, there's a more platonic relationship - we see the extents of her chivalry and knightly self. Unlike Fate which helps develop her feminine characteristics. And then there's HF in which, although she's on the 'evil' side, she's still a good guy deep down. Sparks liner high, seems specifically there to improve her character in that route. She has development over all three routes. Is she the heroine of all of them? No. Do they all belong to her? No. Rin is no exception. Lemme put it bluntly for you: she is a wiki in Fate; she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. |
mira-pyonJul 18, 2015 3:48 PM
The sun is a deadly laser |
mira-nyan said: astroprogs said: And...? I'm not sure what's the point you're trying to make here. As you said, Rin is the deuteragonist, so she gets, inevitably, explored and developed in every route unlike Saber and Sakura. HF is Illya's route because she gets developed the most in it. Fate and HF are Kirei's routes for the same reason, and so on... In THAT sense, every route IS Rin's route. It's not. And you're using the 'sense' wrong. A route belongs to the heroine whom the route is about. Fate is about Saber and her development. She has to face her 'fate' and die. Hence it's HER route. Saber's route, not Rin's. UBW is about Archer and his question/dilemma and his answer. It's UBW because the RM is what connects them; it's very important to the plot. It may be considered Rin's route, as she is supposedly the heroine of the route, but even Nasu has admitted that she's hardly a heroine in it. HF is about the two grails and their development. Hence it's called 'Heavens Feel'. Rin gets more character than she does in the other routes, but, jokes aside, it is NOT her route. It belongs to Illya and Sakura. Astro, you need to learn to differentiate facts from jokes. All the routes do NOT belong to Rin. A deuteragonist is the second most important character. Her development is spread out over the routes, but that doesn't make her the heroine of all the routes. Example; you see different sides of Archer depending on the route. In Fate you don't see much of him, but he helps Shirou. In UBW he takes action and his real motives are seen. He's kinda like a mid-boss at that point. In HF, however, he goes out of his way to help Shirou and the gang, knowing that he won't end up like him. There, development over all the routes. Do all the routes belong to him? No. Saber, for example, in Fate she is the heroine and we see her past and her view on things. In UBW, there's a more platonic relationship - we see the extents of her chivalry and knightly self. Unlike Fate which helps develop her feminine characteristics. And then there's HF in which, although she's on the 'evil' side, she's still a good guy deep down. Sparks liner high, seems specifically there to improve her character in that route. She has development over all three routes. Is she the heroine of all of them? No. Do they all belong to her? No. Rin is no exception. Lemme put it bluntly for you: she is a wiki in Fate; she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. Calling every route Rin's route is a long shot but i just think that just like Shirou(except for his decisions in every route which triggers different outcome) she has a gradual buildup as a character from fate to HF as compared to other heroins who are thrown to the side except in their own routes. Let's face the facts Sakura has no significant role role in fate and UBW, Saber is pretty much side character in UBW and HF while in every soute Rin has significant screen time which helps in her gradual buildup as every route shows different sides of her character and completes her development in HF as mira-nyan said. She also has the most screen time(second to Shirou of course) which is also an important spect to call her the heroine of the whole F/SN as butcher said which is quiet correct. What astro wants to say is that even though there are three heroine in F/SN with Sakura and Saber being the focal points of their respective routes unlike Rin , she gets gradual development with significant screentime with every route which is an important characteristic for a main heroine. Hence butcher saying Rin being the true heroine is not far fetched but rather true to an extent. |
mira-nyan said: It's not. And you're using the 'sense' wrong. A route belongs to the heroine whom the route is about. Fate is about Saber and her development. She has to face her 'fate' and die. Hence it's HER route. Saber's route, not Rin's. UBW is about Archer and his question/dilemma and his answer. It's UBW because the RM is what connects them; it's very important to the plot. It may be considered Rin's route, as she is supposedly the heroine of the route, but even Nasu has admitted that she's hardly a heroine in it. HF is about the two grails and their development. Hence it's called 'Heavens Feel'. Rin gets more character than she does in the other routes, but, jokes aside, it is NOT her route. It belongs to Illya and Sakura. Astro, you need to learn to differentiate facts from jokes. All the routes do NOT belong to Rin. A deuteragonist is the second most important character. Her development is spread out over the routes, but that doesn't make her the heroine of all the routes. Example; you see different sides of Archer depending on the route. In Fate you don't see much of him, but he helps Shirou. In UBW he takes action and his real motives are seen. He's kinda like a mid-boss at that point. In HF, however, he goes out of his way to help Shirou and the gang, knowing that he won't end up like him. There, development over all the routes. Do all the routes belong to him? No. Saber, for example, in Fate she is the heroine and we see her past and her view on things. In UBW, there's a more platonic relationship - we see the extents of her chivalry and knightly self. Unlike Fate which helps develop her feminine characteristics. And then there's HF in which, although she's on the 'evil' side, she's still a good guy deep down. Sparks liner high, seems specifically there to improve her character in that route. She has development over all three routes. Is she the heroine of all of them? No. Do they all belong to her? No. Rin is no exception. Lemme put it bluntly for you: she is a wiki in Fate; she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. You're still not getting my point, Mira. Rin is not the heroine because the story of all routes focus entirely on her, she's the heroine because she's ALWAYS the most valuable-to-the-narrative character. She's the ONLY character who gets more screen time then any other character besides Shirou. She's the ONLY character who remains by the main character's side throughout any given route, as Saber gets taken/sidelined in UBW and HF, and Sakura who's irrelevant in 2/3rds of the story. Those three aspects are exclusive to her character AND they're usually exclusive to a main heroine's. I think CutePriest has put put it best: "What astro wants to say is that even though there are three heroine in F/SN with Sakura and Saber being the focal points of their respective routes unlike Rin , she gets gradual development with significant screentime with every route which is an important characteristic for a main heroine." mira-nyan said: she is a wiki in Fate; she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. Everyone but Saber was a wiki in Fate, Mira. Kirei's long winded expositions and info dumps almost rival Rin's in that route, and it's understandable since it IS the introductory route. "she is a figure head in UBW" wat? She provided a huge contrast to Shirou's personality and was the second most important factor in Shirou's development throughout the route (Seriously, did you forget that "distortion" exists or something?), and she's the only reason that Shirou won't turn into Archer in the future. She's as much of a main character in UBW as Archer, which can't be said about any other character other than Shirou himself. "she only gets actual characterisation in HF." Again, wat? Her struggle between being a ruthless mage and a decent human being (her biggest defining character trait) wasn't exactly first brought up in HF. Rin gets her FULL characterization in Fate and UBW, while she gets half of her development in HF. The second half being in UBW, where she learns to balance her two facets. |
astroprogsJul 19, 2015 1:14 AM
astroprogs said: -snip- If what CuPri said is true, then all your trying to say is that she's the deuteragonist. No matter how you look at it, all the routes don't belong to her. Seriously, this could've all been avoided if you word your sentences properly. Now it feels like you said 'all the routes belong to her' to start up a fight. You know you're explaining how she's the second most important character/the one with the second most amount of screen time, why did you not make it clearer? @.@ |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| UBW Shirou .He went further than what his father could ever achieve. |
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mira-nyan said: astroprogs said: -snip- If what CuPri said is true, then all your trying to say is that she's the deuteragonist. No matter how you look at it, all the routes don't belong to her. Seriously, this could've all been avoided if you word your sentences properly. Now it feels like you said 'all the routes belong to her' to start up a fight. You know you're explaining how she's the second most important character/the one with the second most amount of screen time, why did you not make it clearer? @.@ Because I thought it would've been obvious? I mean, if I thought that every route belonged to her, then I'd be contradicting what the author himself said about his own story. And most importantly I'd be contradicting the Taiga Dojos, the most canon and important part of the story :p |
mira-nyan said: she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. No. Also not sure you know what figure head means. |
Insertanamehere said: mira-nyan said: she is a figure head in UBW; she only gets actual characterisation in HF. No. Also not sure you know what figure head means. Shaddap, wrong word. >:I |
The sun is a deadly laser |
omfgplzstop said: nocorras said: Shirou and it's painfully obvious. Shirou doesn't want to use a miracle to change the world. Kerry wants to change the world with a miracle when he doesn't even have any idea on his own about how to do that. Doesn't exactly scream maturity. Nah. If we're talking about who's more mature, then Kiritsugu's got it. You're forgetting that he only resorted to the Holy Grail after realizing that he could not do it alone no matter how hard he tried. please take the trouble of seeing the no.of posts that have been made before posting this,if you really wanna contribute |
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| Well, Kiritsugu is very naive in some ways. That's actually why he's one of my favorite characters. He's still a lot more mature than UBW Shirou though. There are so many endless monologues and navel gazing that Shirou does through the entire story of UBW, going on and on about how hypocritical it is to save some people and not others and how foolish it is to go down his path when he will destroy himself like Archer. And at the end of all that he comes to understand that he must not give up, that "it's not a mistake". The thing is Kiritsugu already implicitly understands all of this, right from the beginning of Fate Zero. You can see it from his dialogue with Irisviel and his backstory, how much he felt he's had to sacrifice to get where he is and get his chance at the grail, and his fear of continuing because he will inevitably lose his wife. Even then he still perseveres. Shirou has words, but Kiritsugu shows his maturity in his actions. Some key differences between the two: 1) UBW Shirou understands his ideal is impossible. Kerry does not. This is the only aspect where Shirou can be considered more mature, although it is arguable whether believing in the miracle of the grail was a reasonable thing for Kiritsugu to do since he doesn't know what we do about it. 2) Shirou contemplates the destruction of himself through his ideal, represented by Archer. Kiritsugu contemplates the destruction of other people, represented by Irisviel. Shirou doesn't even get around to thinking about that until Sakura in HF, which is literally an alternate timeline and universe. This is the key point that puts Kiritsugu over and above for me, and why UBW Shirou will always be a little kid compared to him, because Kerry understands the weight of other people's lives on his hands. |
daedroth4Aug 12, 2015 2:05 PM
The thing is Kiritsugu already implicitly understands all of this, right from the beginning of Fate Zero. The idea is that he doesn't and comes to the realization at the end after all his hopes fall apart which the author explicitly spoke about in a session discussing Fate/Zero but I guess if you can infer what's not there that's ok. |
| Kerry still thinks the ideal is something achievable. Fate/Zero is essentially all about him being shown how wrong he is. The Grail mindfuck scene shows him that his ideal is impossible and the following fire shows him the price of the few of what he has been doing all his life, which literally breaks his mind. Fate/Zero is the story of Emiya Kiritsugu realizing the hypocrisy of his ways and paying the price for it. Shirou already knows that ideal is impossible form the very beginning of the story. He is already aware of it from his experience in the fire and his own thoughts on the matter. Shirou simply has no other way to continue living/functioning. The ideal is all he has in terms of self, since Shirou-that-was mentally died in the fire. That is inherent truth Shirou knows before the routes even split. The first time he even talks about his ideal in the prologue he outlines this. So Shirou already surpasses Kerry's ideological thinking by the time of freaking prologue, not indulging in hypocrisy that Kerry lived in. What's more Shirou knows the weight of life far better than Kerry - while Kerry's tragedies were of his own making and choices, Shirou that is was forged in hell fully being able to see how fickle and fragile a human life is and why all lives are equal. UBW Shirou's journey is about perspective . Its not about realizing impossibility - that already has happened. The Ideal is not a mistake even if it can't be achieved, because ideals are not meant to be achieved. Its a way of life. You do not sacrifice yourself and others to achieve it. You live according to the impossible utopia that the ideal represents. And that is enough for UBW Shirou. Unlike Archer, who chased the completion of ideal all his life and after and was begrudged by the futility of it, UBW Shirou has no intention of going suicidal lengths for his ideal. He accepts the very fact of failing to implement his ideal as natural matter of reality - sometimes he will succeed and sometimes he will fail, but that does not in any way devalue the beauty of ideal itself and the wish to live by it. Just because you can't save everyone does not mean that wanting to save everyone or trying when you can is pointless. That in itself makes UBW Shirou the most healthy out of three outcomes, as he is someone who managed to see the ideal as part of reality instead of placing reality and ideal as polar opposites as Fate(who embraces idealism as opposition to reality) and HF Shirou(who nihilistically condemns any idealism) or just childishly covering his ears and eyes and ignoring it all like Kerry. Unlike Kerry, who was destroyed by the path he chose or Archer, who was forced into path he did not want, UBW Shirou does not see ideal as goal. He finds his self-fulfillment and happiness in the process itself. |
AhenshihaelAug 12, 2015 2:28 PM
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Insertanamehere said: The thing is Kiritsugu already implicitly understands all of this, right from the beginning of Fate Zero. The idea is that he doesn't and comes to the realization at the end after all his hopes fall apart which the author explicitly spoke about in a session discussing Fate/Zero but I guess if you can infer what's not there that's ok. I think you're half right. I was incorrect about Kerry understanding his own destruction since he burned himself out by the end of FZ and there was clearly some regret there. But he understands the weight his ideals have on other people around him, even if not himself. That he sees his responsibility for other people's lives and sacrifices while still trying to save as many as he can is something I consider to be vastly more important. |
daedroth4 said: Insertanamehere said: The idea is that he doesn't and comes to the realization at the end after all his hopes fall apart which the author explicitly spoke about in a session discussing Fate/Zero but I guess if you can infer what's not there that's ok. I think you're half right. I was incorrect about Kerry understanding his own destruction since he burned himself out by the end of FZ and there was clearly some regret there. But he understands the weight his ideals have on other people around him, even if not himself. That he sees his responsibility for other people's lives and sacrifices while still trying to save as many as he can is something I consider to be vastly more important. Except he does not understand the weight. He only realizes it in the fire, when he gets to see upclose the suffering of the "few" on scale he did not see before, with that realization breaking his mind. He tried to play god, to manipulate the world, to kill his emotions, to judge who lives and who dies, weighing lives and he lost and paid the price for his hypocrisy. Kiritsugu's journey in Zero is all about his hypocrisy and ignorance. Its his main flaw, its the cause of his downfall. Just because he covered his eyes and his ears and pretended this wont do anything to him and that his ideal is possible, did not mean that reality stopped saying "no" to him. Its EXACTLY because he ignored the weight and the consequences of his actions that he paid this price. If Shirou is someone way too adult for his age due to what he went through, Kiritsugu is a child who never grew up. |
AhenshihaelAug 12, 2015 2:34 PM
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Really cool post. I have more respect for UBW Shirou after reading that. I don't agree with some of it though. And the reason for that is because UBW Shirou was never faced with a situation like his decision with Sakura in HF, where he had to choose whether to give up someone he cares about for the greater good. CookingPriest said: [Kiritsugu] only realizes it in the fire, when he gets to see upclose the suffering of the "few" on scale he did not see before, with that realization breaking his mind. He tried to play god, to manipulate the world, to kill his emotions, to judge who lives and who dies, weighing lives and he lost and paid the price for his hypocrisy. Kiritsugu's journey in Zero is all about his hypocrisy and ignorance. Its his main flaw, its the cause of his downfall. That's the thing, this post is not correct because Kerry HAS seen the suffering. He's done it to himself when he sacrificed Natalia who was the only person he cared about in the world, and he felt that pain. He saw the complete destruction of life that his inaction caused on the island during his childhood. And yet there he is in Fate Zero not ready to give up yet. The lesson of Kerry's story in Fate Zero was that miracles don't exist, and as I mentioned before I agree this is something Shirou knows that Kerry does not. But Kerry takes more responsibility for his ideals when it comes to other people because of the HF-like situations he's experienced that UBW Shirou did not, and I think that is by far the most important thing. |
daedroth4 said: That's not really correct, for one in the Island it wasn't his inaction that caused the event, I can't even say it was his ignorance. It was other people who did other things which he had no control over it. He even questions in his later years if killing his father was the right thing since it didn't change a thing. Natalia even laughs at him saying he'd have to kill everyone who's like his father to even begin to make a difference. After he kills natalia, sure we see him suffering, but he still doesn't take responsibility for what he did.That's the thing, this post is not correct because Kerry HAS seen the suffering. He's done it to himself when he sacrificed Natalia who was the only person he cared about in the world, and he felt that pain. He saw the complete destruction of life that his inaction caused on the island during his childhood. And yet there he is in Fate Zero not ready to give up yet. The lesson of Kerry's story in Fate Zero was that miracles don't exist, and as I mentioned before I agree this is something Shirou knows that Kerry does not. But Kerry takes more responsibility for his ideals when it comes to other people because of the HF-like situations he's experienced that UBW Shirou did not, and I think that is by far the most important thing. He shifts the blame to "it's for the greater good" instead of admitting that he might have pulled the trigger too early. He even tries to convince himself that if she had landed the plane successfully, more people would have died. Although there is no way to be certain of that. He even starts yelling at some voice in his head telling it to shut up, because his own consciousness is questioning what he did. He doesn't care for the small scale either, especially when he kills lancers master(s). Those 2 were done with the war, Kayneth had used his last command seal and they had cut off his wifes hand and taken her command seals also. There was almost no chance of them getting back into the war. Again no way of being sure there would even be a threat, especially with a mage who could no longer use any magic since his circuits were fried. Yet he killed them anyway, which is when Saber realized how broken he was. Hence their clash of ideals in the next scene, and saber telling him he once wanted to be a hero more than anyone. UBW Shirou did experience all of archers memories as they were his one, he did see all those HF-like situations that Archer experienced. Which is why archer told him thats what awaits him that's his reality. Also HF goes into more detail about what happened during the fire when he was young, idk if you've read it but you should look into it. |
KamiCityAug 12, 2015 4:00 PM
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KamiCity said: That's not really correct, for one in the Island it wasn't his inaction that caused the event, I can't even say it was his ignorance. It was other people who did other things which he had no control over it. He even questions in his later years if killing his father was the right thing since it didn't change a thing. Natalia even laughs at him saying he'd have to kill everyone who's like his father to even begin to make a difference. After he kills natalia, sure we see him suffering, but he still doesn't take responsibility for what he did. He shifts the blame to "it's for the greater good" instead of admitting that he might have pulled the trigger too early. He even tries to convince himself that if she had landed the plane successfully, more people would have died. Although there is no way to be certain of that. He even starts yelling at some voice in his head telling it to shut up, because his own consciousness is questioning what he did. He doesn't care for the small scale either, especially when he kills lancers master(s). Those 2 were done with the war, Kayneth had used his last command seal and they had cut off his wifes hand and taken her command seals also. There was almost no chance of them getting back into the war. Again no way of being sure there would even be a threat, especially with a mage who could no longer use any magic since his circuits were fried. Yet he killed them anyway, which is when Saber realized how broken he was. Hence their clash of ideals in the next scene, and saber telling him he once wanted to be a hero more than anyone. UBW Shirou did experience all of archers memories as they were his one, he did see all those HF-like situations that Archer experienced. Which is why archer told him thats what awaits him that's his reality. Also HF goes into more detail about what happened during the fire when he was young, idk if you've read it but you should look into it. I'm not referring to killing his father on the island, but rather killing Shirley. It can definitely be argued what happened on the island wasn't his fault, but the important thing is that he realized he had a chance to stop it from happening and didn't, and that ends up changing him. This is what I'm leading to when I talk about Kerry "taking responsibility", because we're both using that phrase in different ways. If a leader sends their nation to war, "taking responsibility" doesn't necessarily mean turning themselves in to prison for all the loss of life they've caused. What it means in that context is that the leader understands the gravity of their actions, that they bear the lives of people they are sending off to die, and that it is being done for the good of the people of the nation or some kind of worthy goal (see WW2 for an example everyone knows about). In that example "taking responsibility" means taking responsibility for your ideal, to act on behalf of your people, just as Kiritsugu takes responsibility for his ideal when he kills Natalia, acting in the interest of the greater good and saving lives. Even though he cares about Natalia more than any other person, he kills her because he understands it is not right of him to value her above what may be the lives of many others. I'm still only about halfway through HF right now, but something feels very off about the idea that UBW Shirou experienced Archer's memories and took in the memory of his sacrifices. The reason why Shirou and Archer are fighting in the first place is because Shirou absolutely refuses to back away from his ideal even though the end result is becoming someone like Archer. But if like CookingPriest mentioned before, that UBW Shirou at the end of the story no longer intends to completely internalize that ideal, to not make those sacrifices, then there's no way he'd ever become like Archer in the first place. So Archer has no reason to loathe or fight him. I certainly don't remember Shirou agreeing that Archer was right so I'm finding this quite odd. |
daedroth4Aug 12, 2015 5:27 PM
phantombroker said: Kiritsugu didn't want to give up his horribly flawed methods and instead put his faith in a magical fairy tale device to make everything worth it in the end. It's pretty clear that his ideals are childish if he still actually believes that such a miracle does exist, being the same kind of belief that drives ISIS to murder thousands. Kiritsugu. People chastise him for being quick to latch on to the grail to fulfill his wish, which, mind you, he only did because he knew that his utilitarian methods wouldn't fix the world, but considering that he was led to believe it was omnipotent, as almost everyone else in the series was, I'd think that there was precedent for this belief, especially considering that he was being led on by the people who made the friggin' thing. If you've got a guy like him on your team, and you're the Einzberns, you're not going to tell Kiritsugu that he's shit outta luck. The Einzberns don't really care what Kiritsugu wants or thinks just so long as he wins them the grail. And how does he not value human life? He obviously values it enough to evacuate an entire hotel save for Kayneth, something which is actually pretty risky considering that it could've made Kayneth catch on to his plan, and the entire basis of utilitarian thought is that the morality of an action is that which derives the most happiness from humankind. He has a very twisted view on human life that essentially reduces people to numbers. Even though it does fit an objective view rather well, it's definitely not the human nor the mature thing to do, and is more suited to someone who hasn't really grown up since you're throwing away every nuance out there without a second thought. It's also the reason why Kiritsugu has been miserable his entire life since he doesn't place any value on his own happiness. That evacuation was thought of him as being soft, which happened because he got to live like a human for 10 years and you can't just switch that off.Like... Shirou can go on about how he doesn't want to use the grail, but that feels less like it's because he understands the exact connotations of using the grail, and how you need to know what you want to do for the grail to do it, and more just that he's wracked by self-doubt. You could say that such trepidation is more mature, but Kerry at least tried it before he gave up on it. And I mean shit, the grail was corrupted anyway. Even Shirou knew that miracles only exist in our imaginations. He's aware of the what the implications of obtaining a Holy Grail is; he's just not dumb or delusional enough to take it seriously. Some of that was definitely a side effect of having been reminded over and over by an older and wiser Kiritsugu about the dangers of believing in an ideal. The grail couldn't have done anything even if it was uncorrupted because that's just a colorless mass of magic. For as much as people view the grail's takedown of Kerry as justified, they fail to realize that it was going to corrupt any wish made on it into something apocalyptic anyway. But for some reason its version of utilitarianism is the only possible outcome of Kerry's viewpoint? Fuck outta here. Angra Mainyu's slippery slope of "the needs of the many" is full of holes, but it still helps to demonstrate just how narrow minded Kiritsugu's conduct is because that's exactly how he thinks. As far as what he wanted from the grail, Kiritsugu was counting on a complete rewriting of human nature that even Kirei could realize was off. In summation, while I can't say I necessarily disagree with Shirou's decision to hold to his ideal in spite of the impossibility of achieving it, I still have to side with Kerry because not only was he aware of that impossibility as well, he actually chose to do something about it and appropriately reacted when he became aware that it wasn't a good option. Shirou just assumed that such a method wouldn't work without consideration, which is less maturity and more trepidation. It was never about not achieving it to Shirou. It was about what made him happy and what he wanted to do for himself. It's also presented as a good thing that Rin will help him love himself, because that kind of habit is obviously needed to be a functional human. Kiritsugu by contrast went against everything that would have made him happy and still ended up with the same mindset that he would have had if he had chosen his own personal happiness. It doesn't take a lot of thought to realize that "such a method" wouldn't work with some time in the real world. Kiritsugu just ignored that and kept genuinely believing and deceiving himself. Hell, even the F/Z novel mentions how Kiritsugu's ideal is something most boys abandon fairly early as they see the world for what it is. Shirou wasn't being trepidatious; he was being honest with himself and he had a better mentor to go off of. |
Aure0linApr 4, 2018 3:14 AM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| first of all you could have the balls to actually quote me in your post 1. People keep telling me that Kiritsugu's methods were, "horribly flawed," but, like, the guy wasn't a monster. He didn't totally devalue human life for the greater good. The most questionable thing he does is his killing of Kayneth, but everything else he did was totally justified. Especially considering that he made major concessions like evacuating the hotel that put his plans at risk so innocent people wouldn't die. He didn't seek the grail because he didn't believe his methods were wrong, since those were the methods he used to obtain it. He sought it because he knew that trying to save the world using any method aside from something omnipotent couldn't fulfill his wish. the fact that he still even believes in a world where everyone should be happy tells you everything you need to know about his mindset because someone who has lived his life should know that this is not how the world works. the nasuverse is a universe with magic and vampires and monsters yes, but people still act like people and the world is still a very unfair place. i don't want to fault him for wanting to believe it, but it's a sign of maturity for shirou to know better when kerry didn't 2. No shit. That was my point. If they tell him "yeah, sorry guy, the grail can't give you world peace," he's not going to do their job for them. 3. You're just speaking in vague generalities about his own happiness and how his methods are inefficient without giving any real arguments as to why. seeing as how you haven't read the novel or/and misinterpreted what the anime showed you i'll show you exactly what he was thinking when he killed natalia Fate/Zero_novel said: his own happiness revolved around being with the people who he loved rather than saving strangers who wouldn't even know his name or face. he isn't as broken as shirou; he's still a selfish human who can find happiness in helping himself. his entire ideal and methods stem from one situation where killing one to save the many was the best decision and then he extrapolated that to every single situation he would find himself in. being able to know when a certain course of action should be taken instead of the usual is a sign of maturity, but for "save the highest number" kiritsugu, the majority always winsDid you see that, Shirley? I have killed again this time. Killed as when I killed my father. I would never make the same mistake that I made with you back then. I, wanted to save more people… If Kiritsugu’s actions and intentions were known by others, would they thank Kiritsugu? Would the passengers at the airport who were spared of death under the threat of the Ghouls praise Kiritsugu as a hero? “Don’t kid me…Don’t kid me! Bastard!” Grasping tightly the missile launcher that was starting to wear off the remaining heat, Kiritsugu roared towards the brightening sky. He didn’t want prestige or gratitude. He just wanted to see Natalia’s face once again. He just wanted to call her “Mom” face to face. This isn’t the conclusion he wanted. This is only the correct decision, with no other choice and no space for dispute. Kiritsugu’s decision was ‘correct’. He erased the person who must die and saved those with no reason to die. If this isn’t ‘justice’, then what would it be? It's especially jarring considering that utilitarian ethics are very viable in the eyes of several ethical philosophers. You throw out gut reactions like, "reducing people down to numbers" when that's not at all what utilitarianism is about. Utilitarianism is about creating the most happiness for the most people, and not simply serving the most people. From a utilitarian perspective, it is more ethical, in a choice between two worlds, to spare the world with 100 eternally happy people as opposed to one with only 1000 eternally miserable people. As a way of ensuring that this is carried out in a fair way, no one person's happiness is worth more than any other, and a person's merit to the world's overall utility is based on how much they contribute to it. It's why a utilitarian would save a doctor as opposed to a radio jockey. Their happiness is equal, and there would be no right answer if they both had the same position, but with that balance shifted, one obviously contributes more utility in the long term than another. all of that is great...except that isn't how kiritsugu thinksFate/Zero_novel said: With no regard to the humility of one’s existence, and with no regard to its age, all lives were weighed evenly. With no discrimination, the man saved lives, and, with no discrimination, he killed. kiritsugu would have chosen the 1000 people without a second thought. he doesn't think about the quality of anyone's lives. just as long as the side he kills is a minority, he's fine with it. 3. Yeah, and for a while he probably thought that time-travel wasn't real either. Look, I'm not going to say that he should necessarily think that anything is possible just because the bar is constantly being raised on what is possible, but I don't think it's unrealistic for someone to hold the view that Kiritsugu did on the grail. Partly because he wasn't the only one who described it as omnipotent, not by a long-shot, and partly because there's a large chance that the people who created it were leading him on. 4. So it's full of holes, but you're gonna bet on that horse anyway? Makes sense. 5. More vague generalities about how Kiritsugu's ideas were childish and were bad because they meant he wouldn't be happy. News flash dude, one guy being unhappy for the sake of others being happy is NOBLE. It's something we celebrate as a virtue. also nice strawman because being childish definitely does not have anything to do with genuine belief in something that's impossible And by the by, most boys aren't led to believe that there's an omnipotent wish granting device (again, NOT a term used solely by Kiritsugu) that can fulfill their wishes. you couldn't have missed the point more if you tried. most boys usually believe in a world where everyone can be happy and they actually are sometimes told stories about a magic lamp or a holy grail that they might believe in at the beginning. |
Aure0linApr 15, 2018 8:07 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
phantombroker said: you know, you aren't the only person in my universe. i only replied because i stumbled upon this after forgetting about it and decided to give a response. that's why i suggested that you "grow some balls" and let me know that you responded to me, because i interpreted the lack of any quote as telling me that some part of you is afraid of what i'll say1. Jesus, fuck. Are you really coming back to this after so long? Okay then. First off, just a bunch of more vague generalities about how Kerry totally should've known that in a world of reality warping magic, that his dream was unattainable for no real reason other than... because. since you're pretty evidently new to the nasuverse, let me be the first to tell you that nasu loves to write all sorts of rules to apply order to his universe, and the people inside the universe are aware of it as well. even something that defies natural laws like magic blue or kaleidoscope obey some sort of consistencyJust because people act like it's unfair doesn't mean Kiritsugu should think it need be that way. Shirou didn't know better because he had a lived experience that taught him to think that way, he knew better because... he just kinda did. And you can call that maturity, but it has no real grounding. shirou knew better because he listened to five years of kiritsugu, a self-proclaimed superhero, telling him that being a hero was something he shouldn't do. if that isn't real grounding, i don't know what is2. YES. THEY CARE WHAT HE THINKS. BECAUSE IF HE DOESN'T THINK THE GRAIL CAN CHANGE THE WORLD LIKE HE WANTS, HE WON'T DO WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO. THIS IS THE FIRST RULE OF GETTING PEOPLE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO. MAKE THEM THINK THEY'LL GAIN FROM WHAT YOU'RE MANIPULATING THEM TO DO. This is some grade-A mental gymnastics. okay buddy you can calm down. nobody's going to hurt you here. to answer the post, they knew that something was wrong with the grail, but if they really cared, they would have told kiritsugu some more bullshit that would have made him accept the grail anyways. 3. And this is a bad thing... because? Like, I get the point that everyone who hates Kerry's way of thinking makes is that it doesn't make him happy. But, like, so what? When did we start giving people applause for being selfish so long as they aren't sad. i would applaud people like kiritsugu or shirou being selfish because being selfish for them is actually harder than following their hero complex. if it were a narcissistic asshole like shinji i wouldn't think anything of it Also, this... i mean yeah that was pretty obvious"kiritsugu would have chosen the 1000 people without a second thought. he doesn't think about the quality of anyone's lives. just as long as the side he kills is a minority, he's fine with it." This is terrible. Look guy, here's the thing. My example of 100 happybois vs 1000 sadbois is NOT an average utilitarian thought experiment. I was simply using it to dispel a common misconception about utilitarianism not caring about the emotions of people. Following up on that, it isn't even a realistic one, which is why Kerry doesn't think in those terms. He uses a utilitarian concept called "agent-neutrality," in which the happiness of one person is assumed to be no more than the happiness of any other, to judge his morality. We do this in situations like the trolley problem because it's the simplest and most fair way of judging people when we don't have the time or resources to vet everyone's well being, which is very true to real life. I was only explaining morality to you in such a regard because you were hung up on the numbers aspect, before I went on the explain that the reason we default to numbers anyway is, and I cannot stress this enough, 100 happybois vs 1000 sadbois is NOT a realistic situation that applies to most utilitarian thought experiments, like the ship that the grail presents Kerry with. to start, weren't you the one who talked about nasuverse being a magic fantasy world. saying that then trying to apply realistic situations seems to be pretty self-contradicting. In that scenario it is simply assumed every person contributes as much utility as the other to the world. The quote you gave doesn't even reflect that he's hung up on numbers. The only two non-factors mentioned are, "humility of existence," whatever the fuck that means, and age. It seems like you're trying to say that Kiritsugu only kills based on the number of people who will die from a given action, but that's not accounting for deaths by proxy, which is why he kills Natalia. That's forethought. That's planning ahead. He kills her in particular because her particular circumstances are going to get people killed. Just because there are factors he doesn't care about in terms of weighing options of how many live vs. how many die doesn't mean that there are no factors regarding who he chooses to kill and why he chooses to kill them im sure it was pretty obvious to everyone how many would have died if natalia wasn't killed. and you don't really explain how this doesn't pertain to numbers like how kiritsugu instantly chooses the highest numbers when questioned by angra mainyu or how he thinks of how many people he saved by killing natalia4. Except, it's actually Gil who is the only person in-series to question whether or not the grail is omnipotent. Everyone else, Kiriei's family, Kayneth, and Kerry, all call it omnipotent. Now, what's the more plausible explanation, that they actually believe it to a degree? Or that they're knowingly applying an adjective that at least two-thirds of them should know to be false to the Grail for no good reason? you know there's a thing called not taking things at face value, and it's pretty evident that kiritsugu and saber are the only ones who outright believe in an omnipotent grail since they're the only ones with impossible wishes. everyone else from diarmuid who just wants a good fight to tokiomi or zouken who want it for research have an implicit instinct to know better than to assume that the grail is omnipotent in a world where even something like magic requires an equivalent input for some output. the kotomine family, and the catholic church by extension, all are there just to verify if the holy grail is what it claims to be, because there are countless objects that are claimed to be the holy grail5. You explained things very poorly, and didn't at all address the fact that nothing that Kiritsugu actually did in-series even contradicts my explanation of utilitarian ethics. you mean like how in-universe it's explained that he turns himself into a machine that's only designed to serve an arbitrary idea of justice6. Oh, how edgy. "This would make nasu and urobuchi face palm, just assuming that people would be willing to throw away their happiness for nobility." Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. It's noble BECAUSE it's a difficult thing to do. Of course I don't think just anyone can do it. Of course most people choose their own happiness over nobility. That's why when someone is noble, when they make a choice to actively undertake a burden, it's noteworthy, it's praiseworthy, and it's good. Your ethos just explains mediocrity and justifies what amounts to bystander syndrome. Our valuing sacrifice why we celebrate people who go off to fight the wars we can't. Because they fight for something greater than themselves, which not everyone can, or even wants, to do. That's what makes people exceptional. Sacrifice for others. Yes, it's not common, but you can't say it isn't admirable. Because if working for the benefit of mankind is superseded by one's personal happiness, then nothing we view as noble is actually noble, and we should all just be assholes to each other for our own gain. You chastise me for calling it noble to make sacrifices for others, and yet you offer nothing but vacuous, nihilistic egoism in return. You can chastise me all you want for valuing nobility, sacrifice, and all that other shit that most decent human beings have the fucking AUDACITY to call virtuous, but what can you offer in return? If self-sacrifice for the benefit of others isn't virtuous, then what is? I doubt even Nasu and Urobutchi would agree with what you're saying here. While they do understand that nobility is difficult, and I don't fault them for making such a point, the idea that they would agree with you, and say that self-sacrifice for other people isn't virtuous is laughable. Yeah, you can say that now. You can pose as someone who doesn't believe that such a thing is really virtuous, or say that you're just playing devil's advocate, but then you'll go into a screening of Captain America the First Avenger and lose your fucking shit when puny Steve Rogers throws himself on a fake grenade to save his fellow soldiers. i mean you're assuming i can't admire someone who sacrifices themselves for the sake of others, while knowing what that means. simply believing in something as noble was covered in the fate route, but the other routes actually explore the concept. that's why i admire ubw shirou so much, because he sees reality for what it is and doesn't crumble before it like archer, kiritsugu, and his hf counterpart did. it's just hard to see kiritsugu's "noble" actions in a favorable light because of how departed from reality he was in actually believing in a utopia free from suffering and constantly running from that reality. i'm also pretty sure you're ignoring the idea that people help others to help themselves ie they do favors because they know it benefits them in the long run. that's just one of the many nuances that exist, so it's amusing to see how someone who doesn't believe in blind idealism automatically has to be a cynical asshole. and yes captain america does happen to be my favorite mcu character, thank you for asking. my favorite part about him is how he follows what he believes in but also amends his ideals, which are flexible unlike a certain someone's, to change what that belief should be dedicated to, yet remaining true to the heart of it all7. The difference here is that the holy grail actually exists. Yes, it's not what people thought it was, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a reason people got caught up in the myth. When I was a kid, I knew deep down inside me that Aladdin was just a movie. Every kid did. Kerry doesn't live in that world though. so you grew up. too bad kerry didn't |
Aure0linApr 18, 2018 5:58 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
phantombroker said: JFC, did you miss the last part of what I said? That Kerry doesn't live in our world? there are like several hundred gorillion artifacts in the Nasuverse, referred to as a "Holy Grail". Even there the notion of "too good to be true", isn't an alien concept. |
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phantombroker said: And yet, Gil is like, the only one who says, "you know, maybe it's not omnipotent." Yet, none of the wishes were as extreme as Kiritsugu's was. Even if the Grail wasn't corrupted, and even if it was omnipotent, the result would've still been a fucking disaster. As Kotomine's pointed out, world peace is simply something that humanity is not compatible with. The hypothetical "omnipotent" Grail would've either had to murder everyone who bore malicious thoughts (which is nothing less than genocide) or just completely re-create humanity from scratch (which I would still argue to be a pretty fucking twisted thing to do). |
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phantombroker said: Because no one wanted anything as grand as he did regardless of the Grail's capabilities The participants of the 4th HGW were all kind of terrible people. I find it hard they'd set their expectations so low, if they were as zealous as Kerry. That's an excellent point in your favor... except you have absolutely no proof it's true. The Grail always required to be given a method to work with, corrupted or not. Seeing how Kerry's always been so willing to break a few eggs, I wouldn't put it past him to come up with solutions like that. Or, it could just eliminate disease, famine, and all the usual shit that's beyond human control, and just create a scenario wherein committing crime is too risky to warrant any benefit that justifies it in one's selfish mind, and in the case that people still commit crimes, just give the law enforcement the ability to do some even more intense psycho-pass shit and prevent the crimes before they happen. > implying that the world of Psycho-Pass wasn't a horrible dystopy Seriously, for a fanbase that seems to be intent on calling people who see the world like Kerry does, "naive," and "dogmatic," those words seem to really apply to you guys too. And regardless of whether or not this is possible for the grail, we're operating on the assumption that it is, because that's what Kerry thought. wew who hurt you? |
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